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  1. #441
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Prestige is all about respect since there's none without it. And whether or not you personally feel respected in game should be more of a social function of your guild than a reflection of how you believe others should feel about you.

    People are prone to take their own self-satisfaction and project it onto others and they're free to do that but trust me in this: Most people outside of a tight social circle could not care less about your gear, your accomplishments or anything else that you've done. The only time they notice you is when you park on the mailboxes in front of the AH and then it's only to be annoyed. The only thing interesting about the attitude displayed by some raiders encapsulated in belief in their own specialness is that it exists at all.

    All the rest of us have our own game to play be it solo or within our own circle of friends, family and guildmates. We don't standing around in our free time wishing there was someone around that we could hero-worship. The measure of a person's worth is something much greater than whether or not they play video games well. Most of us know that. Those that don't will figure it out at some point. It's shallow, unimportant and self-deluded. Blizzard took nothing away from you when they added greater access to raiding to the game.

    TL : DR - Nobody outside your friends and guild owes you anything for your game competence. Stop acting like someone does.
    How am I acting like someone owes me something? I dont really get your point on that, sounds more like venting, but maybe thats just me. prestige is something that ultimately you have to decide for yourself, whether something has prestige or not. For example, I think there is prestige knowing how to play instrument, even though you would only play by yourself for yourself, because you know it took effort and willpower to finally master it. Sure there is some self-satisfaction if you find out that others too find prestige at things you do, because nobody is safe from ego (least of all hurt ego), but if you decide what has prestige according to others opinions, you will run in to problems when people around you change during your life. Which is why most philosophies come to a conclusion that anything worth while takes effort and commitment (even things done at leisure, like playing music). And then we arrive at the discussion about the modern day demand for instant gratification, easy pleasures and feeling of entitlement, but that is a discussion for another arena.

    And measure of one's worth in a video game is actually how well they play it. Like in a band one's worth is how well they play their instrument or make music.

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    well if they removed those restrictions i could see it badly abused
    Badly abused = kicking the guy who has been on follow for 20 minutes.

    People go into lfr with 2 hours kick immunity because they have been kicked TOO MUCH.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Just because Mannoroth and Archimonde are involved doesn't mean it's Legion. They could just be on vacation, demolishing Draenor to build their new summer home.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dundebuns View Post
    Did you know that salt has sodium and chlorine in it!!!! Sodium explodes when exposed to atmosphere and you clean your toilets with chlorine!!

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWalkinDude View Post
    Do you have any evidence to back that up? Because while I don't have anything either (as I'm not a Blizzard employee) I can say that a lot of players LOVE flex because it allows them the ability to actually face a challenge in an environment where they weren't just randomly tossed together by some algorithim, on a time schedule that their personal taste obliges. That's what was sorely missing from LFR in 5.0, any form of actual challenne in random, queable content. Flex bridged the gap between LFR and structured/organized raiding.

    I can't think for the life of me why anyone who has the slightest grasp of mechanics of their class would elect LFR over Flex. The rewards in both actual challenge, the social experience and actual in game loot are vastly superior. I honestly can't understand why anyone who wasn't a sub-par player and lacks the desire to try and improve would opt not to do Flex over LFR. As others have stated, the time sink to que and complete an LFR is almost always much higher than for a Flex. Because people can be removed at the drop of a hat, they're much more likely to act in a positive way.

    LFR should (and I think it's headed in that direction) only serve as a content mode or environment where players can refine their rotation after practicing on a target dummy.
    LFR has the huge advantage of no organisational requirement, no need for a pre-determined time commitment.
    Something no other format can offer without considerable amount of understanding or willingness from other players.

    That is a pretty significant issue, and why LFR exists in the first place.
    The unfriendly player-created environment towards the less convenienced players is what made the feature a necessity.

    Flex is aimed at Normal Raiders, not LFR.
    Flex offers organised raiding with less of the "loose ends" that a fixed size format generates.
    It was never intended to be a replacement for or superior form of LFR.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Your forgot to include the part where we blame casuals for everything because blizzard is catering to casuals when casuals got jack squat for new content the entire expansion, like new dungeons and scenarios.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  4. #444
    Deleted
    They did go on a record saying that they wish they had come up with Flex first, suggesting that LFR as we know it would not exist today if they could go back in time. I'm sure they will try to kill it with bad loots and tourist mode next expansion, make it a larger scenario, maybe have NPCs kill the bosses. One thing they could try is make working version of WAR's contribution roll, where your chance for loot increases the more you contribute (dps/healing/activity), with afk having no chance for loot.

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Even if they are doing 20k dps?
    If they have a positive attitude they will accept constructive criticism when it is politely given to them and they won't be at 20K DPS for long. As far as LFR goes, I could care less what DPS they are doing because the bosses are tuned for players doing about 50K DPS while fully raid geared players do between 200K and 400K DPS. Who cares if someone's DPS is a little low? No one's asking you to bring them into your heroic raid runs. To be honest, though, I don't think I've ever seen a non-AFK player do below 30K, and even those are once every couple of weeks or so. This popular myth about LFR populated with all baddies doing 20K DPS while 5 well-geared heroes carry them through to full LFR geared glory is just that: a myth. Most players are doing 50-80K. The fully LFR-geared players do about 80-120K, and then the raid geared players do 200K+.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Geish View Post
    They did go on a record saying that they wish they had come up with Flex first, suggesting that LFR as we know it would not exist today if they could go back in time. I'm sure they will try to kill it with bad loots and tourist mode next expansion, make it a larger scenario, maybe have NPCs kill the bosses. One thing they could try is make working version of WAR's contribution roll, where your chance for loot increases the more you contribute (dps/healing/activity), with afk having no chance for loot.
    Accurate and fair measurement of performance is a messy business, and not something I ever want placed in the hands of an automated system.

    Flex being added to all the future modes aside from Mythic is proof that flex while being an incredibly useful addition, is not some alternative or replacement for LFR but is meant to solve the issue of a fixed-size roster, and that only.

    LFR is staying, as has been stated pretty clearly during Blizzcon and since.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2013-12-21 at 04:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Your forgot to include the part where we blame casuals for everything because blizzard is catering to casuals when casuals got jack squat for new content the entire expansion, like new dungeons and scenarios.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  7. #447
    Honestly my favorite part about LFR is blending in with the bad crowd. You can get them to be your personally army if done right. Pretending to play poorly and just not paying attention in there has been fun to say the least. If anyone says anything to you use the army!

  8. #448
    Deleted
    Nobody is saying that Flex is not staying (can't put the milk back after it's been spilled), but that Blizzard wish they had never implemented LFR as we know it. And yes, Blizzard does hope that Flex (dont get caught in semantics, we all know it means the current Flex difficulty) could still replace LFR as casual raiding and that LFR will be changed for tourist mode where you can check the art and lore scenes (might make it even a solo scenario with NPCs killing the bosses with or without your help).
    Last edited by mmoc7fb8344b2d; 2013-12-21 at 05:12 PM.

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    you must only have experience in the newer kinder army of the present. my basic training was before the "its ok to be a degenerate" movement in the military.
    I left active duty 21 years ago, so I'm afraid to ask how old you are if you consider that "the present."

    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    my first experience with someone taking offense to me in basic the drill sergeant locked us both in a barracks bay till we "worked it out".
    The fact that you're 6' and 200 lbs. has worked in your favor. When I was an E-2 I knew an E-5 and an E-6 with your attitude. One day they happened to clash and before I knew it I outranked them. It's only a matter of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    which granted they may take the steps needed to make hard mode, or mythic super hard however they have stated repeatedly that heroic will just be a face over of normal, or in better terms a sell out to entitled players who want to wear the name "heroic raider" without having earned it, much like LF"R" only players consider themselves raiders now.
    Sorry, but I still have to laugh at the thought of "earning" a title in a video game. If you want my respect go earn a ranger tab. Those guys are far more worthy of respect than any raider ever will be.

    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    you cannot win an argument agains someone who is going to compare going to a dance club which is not a competitive hobby to one that is.
    I hate to break it to you, but raiding isn't a competitive hobby either. There are some players who choose to make a competition of raiding, just like there are dancers who choose to organize and/or enter dance competitions. Maybe that's the misconception you're under here. Outside of the race for world-first no one gives a crap about how quickly your guild killed Heroic Garrosh.

    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    if someone wanted to step up to raiding in the past they maximized their toon the best they could outside of raid and got in as a pug or in an alt run of a competent guild and got some experience then moved up through some feeder guilds until they reached their level of competence.
    there was no need for hand me down candy land raiding.
    Except very few wanted to "step up to raiding in the past" because there were plenty of better things to do in the game. Unfortunately Blizzard decided to scrap all those other activities in order to focus more on making raids. That's why they had to make a "candyland" version of raiding: so that they could continue to collect subscription fees from players with better uses for their time. You still get your heroic raid, so what's the problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    If I was busy meeting members of the opposite sex my 5'10 125 lb slovenian underwear model wife would become quite upset with me.
    I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to Cabyio, who was making a ridiculous claim that if you can't do something well you might as well not even try it at all. My point was that he was depriving himself of opportunities.

    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Really? Likeability? Hi guys, let me tell you a nice fire side story. Are you comfortable? Do you have enough s'mores? You know what that raid leader gets?
    You neglected to observe that I was talking about real life, not a game. Does your WoW raiding guild give out salaries? Does your raid leader make 250K a year for raiding?

    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    He gets players that show up 10 minutes late then bitch that they were sat and a raid that muddles down to nothing as 24 other alpha individuals walk all over him on the way to their next guild.
    You come off as an overgrown bully who is well on his way to pissing off the wrong person. I hope you reform your ways before that happens.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-12-21 at 05:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  10. #450
    Herald of the Titans MrKnubbles's Avatar
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    I don't see how that would be fair to all players. I only play tanks, plus this also favors players with multiple characters. I only care about my main. It's fine in the state it's in. LFR is not intended for the high ilvl, high skilled elitist pricks that complain about it.
    Check out my game, Craftsmith, on the Google Play Store!

  11. #451
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by MrKnubbles View Post
    I don't see how that would be fair to all players. I only play tanks, plus this also favors players with multiple characters. I only care about my main. It's fine in the state it's in. LFR is not intended for the high ilvl, high skilled elitist pricks that complain about it.
    Was this aimed at my suggestion to make it solo scenario? I don't see how that would differ from role to role. If you want to tank/dps/heal you can, but you don't have to. If they can make tools to set up decent scripts for AI that could even work as fight manual, just watch how the NPCs react to different things and you should have some kind of idea what to do if you go to a real raid.

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    Accurate and fair measurement of performance is a messy business, and not something I ever want placed in the hands of an automated system.

    Flex being added to all the future modes aside from Mythic is proof that flex while being an incredibly useful addition, is not some alternative or replacement for LFR but is meant to solve the issue of a fixed-size roster, and that only.

    LFR is staying, as has been stated pretty clearly during Blizzcon and since.
    Ofc its staying. As it should. But its going to be changed. They've stated it's not compelling gameplay to be the only source of endgame content (people who don't like raid format forced into it ATM) and they don't think its compelling for anyone, or just a small niche which LFR isn't designed for, to be doing it for weeks and months.

    GC tweet: Our current thought is that LFR is a way to see the content and maybe some gear but not a great way to spend weeks or months.

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    While I think that you're on the right track it's not the only track and it's perfectly fair to point out that even with all of the stuff that LoL has done--stuff that I approve of--the community there is not exactly a bed of roses yet. Maybe someday.
    Oh, I'm under no illusion that the LoL community is perfect. Far from it. However, unlike the WoW community, the one thing it is far more is...accountable.

    And that's the point. LoL players feel accountable to other players. In part it's because of the reporting system, but beyond that it's become more than that. The more I talk to LoL players (I can't pvp due to hand tremors so LoL isn't for me), the more they have articulated that they really do care about "showing up" because of varying levels of "fairness" or "duty" to their fellow players.

    Whether that be altruism or self-interest, the net effect is that there is accountability to fellow players that grows synergy and good feelings toward other players.

    I firmly believe that WoW players would prefer to enjoy both WoW more and the community more. And the feedback from the LoL community is that those reporting tools, however imperfect, are a good start toward building that community. They not only speak to what is dysfunctional, but JUST AS IMPORTANT, they also shed much needed light on what is and who are functional in the community.

    Thus rather than these continued wood chipper threads where the community is shredded and mulched, we need mechanisms, incentives and reminders about why it's better to come together and be part of a community and contribute to that community.

    Addition by addition. Simple, but sometimes simple works...

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzorx View Post
    Ofc its staying. As it should. But its going to be changed. They've stated it's not compelling gameplay to be the only source of endgame content (people who don't like raid format forced into it ATM) and they don't think its compelling for anyone, or just a small niche which LFR isn't designed for, to be doing it for weeks and months.

    GC tweet: Our current thought is that LFR is a way to see the content and maybe some gear but not a great way to spend weeks or months.
    That is rubbish about "seeing the content".
    If you saw the entire experience from the view of LFR, then nobody would raid anything higher.
    LFR is a small portion of the experience, a small portion of the content, not "the content" but "some content".
    It is a different experience, and is different content in every difficulty.

    It might not be a great way to spend that time, but the community, your fellow players make LFR a necessity, and ensure that people are stuck there.

    Flex does nothing to solve the core problem which people keep refusing to talk about, the organisational requirement where someone can make the rules.
    LFD offers exactly the same feature but on a smaller scale, yet I see little complaints in comparison.

    You raid normal or flex because it is simply not the same as LFR.
    Therefore LFR is not seeing all it has to offer, where only the highest difficulty does that.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2013-12-21 at 07:21 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Your forgot to include the part where we blame casuals for everything because blizzard is catering to casuals when casuals got jack squat for new content the entire expansion, like new dungeons and scenarios.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    LFD offers exactly the same feature but on a smaller scale, yet I see little complaints in comparison.
    There are several reasons for this:

    1. You're going to run into more trolls in LFR than in LFD. Assume a certain percentage of the population trolls. For the sake of illustrating my point we'll set that number at 4%. With 25 people you're going to average one troll every run. With 5 people you're going to average one troll every four runs. So on average 75% of your dungeon runs will be pleasant. In LFR, however, most of your runs are going to have at least one troll.

    2. Dealing with a troll in LFD is much easier than dealing with one in LFR. LFR requires a minimum of 5 people to initiate a VTK. LFD requires just one. Once the vote is initiated most players will buy into it, but for some reason players are too reluctant/lazy to initiate a vote unless things have really gone downhill.

    3. Fewer conflicting strategies. This is similar in concept to the first point I made. With fewer people it's less likely that you'll get two players with conflicting strategies. A classic example of failures due to conflicting strategies has cropped up on the Garrosh fight lately. There's a group of players that realized that it's easier in LFR to stack and heal through the desecrated weapon than it is to have everyone running back and forth to avoid it. However, most tanks coming from normal raids are unaware of this strategy and absolutely refuse to buy into it. The result? Half the players park in the melee stack and the other half attempt to run between markers, but with half the raid parked in the desecrate and the tanks running every which way to avoid the desecrate, the whole thing turns into one big clusterfuck. The result? The group wipes. In LFD this is far less likely because you only have to convince one or two people to try a new strategy, as opposed to having to convince 12 or 13 others.

    This is partially why I don't think that LFR has worsened the community. It's simply exposed players to more of it and has therefore lowered opinions. The community was always as bad as it is now. Many players simply didn't realize it.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  16. #456
    Elemental Lord Sierra85's Avatar
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    I think LFR should probably be removed and let Flexi be the new method of "seeing" content. If you have to make Flexi a little easier, then go ahead.

    I also think that you should be only eligable for loot off bosses once a week. You can do flexi/normal/heroic but you can only loot a boss once. i think this would make the game better overall.
    Hi

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    I think LFR should probably be removed and let Flexi be the new method of "seeing" content. If you have to make Flexi a little easier, then go ahead.
    Then don't run LFR. Blizzard has stated that it's still more popular than Flex, so it would be stupid for them to get rid of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    I also think that you should be only eligable for loot off bosses once a week. You can do flexi/normal/heroic but you can only loot a boss once. i think this would make the game better overall.
    What this would do is prevent most of the Flex audience from ever running it. The whole point of Flex is for good players to continue to play with friends and family without affecting their progression. Flex was never intended to be progression raiding. I don't see how this change would "make the game better overall."
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  18. #458
    Elemental Lord Sierra85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    The whole point of Flex is for good players to continue to play with friends and family without affecting their progression. Flex was never intended to be progression raiding. I don't see how this change would "make the game better overall."
    If you want to raid with your friends and family, you can - you just wouldn't be eligable for loot. Heroic raiders wouldn't need the gear anyway since they are doing heroic bosses and would prefer a higher quality level of item.
    Hi

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    If you want to raid with your friends and family, you can - you just wouldn't be eligable for loot. Heroic raiders wouldn't need the gear anyway since they are doing heroic bosses and would prefer a higher quality level of item.
    Heroic raiders can offset bad RNG through Flex drops. Plus, they often go into Flex for extra chances at pet drops. Why do you effectively want to penalize good players for helping out their friends? Like you said, most of the time they don't even need the gear so it's not like an extra drop in Flex is improving the game's longevity. There's also the psychological factor of getting something for the time spent, even if it's not anything particularly useful. I just don't see the benefit of depriving players of loot when they opt to run a lower level of content. The reason that Normal and Heroic share a lockout is so that raiders don't feel forced to do both. Like you said, however, flex loot doesn't do heroic raiders much good in most cases, so that doesn't apply. I'm trying to come up with a benefit of having shared loot lockouts between Normal and Flex and I'm just not seeing them.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-12-23 at 06:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Queue times have gone up since its introduction. That suggests fewer people in the queue. longer queue's = fewer groups are being made=lower completion rate. When you could get into a LFR in 10 minutes then yea, lots of groups and lots of clears. When it takes an hour aside from tuesday? Not many groups being made and even fewer finishing.
    .
    How does long queue time equal low completion rate?

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