MMOs: Is it time for the subscription-based model to go away?

[papajohn4]

True, 400k isn't shabby, but it's not head to head with big ones. It's a shame you are stuck in a space ship, otherwise I would have played the game. I like the idea also that you can grind subfee in game, something blizzard should have invented in wow years ago. Remember being stuck with tons of gold and nothing to buy, getting subfee for that would have been amazing. Tera tried it I think, but had other flaws but I think they got pretty good f2p-model.

I still can't see ticking bomb, I can see greed but it goes for all companies. However the development are hitting companies harder and giving consumers more options and possibilities to demand more. Wow isn't the one and the only anymore, which gives us more choices and also put higher demands on companies and increase competition.

I don't like EVE either because I can't be just a "ship" . I am more into the fantasy world. Although I can see and respect what EVE have achieved. But to say it is not "head to Head" with the big ones, you have to spot the Big ones first And of course to spot those Big ones, that with the sub model could manage to keep 400k+ subs for 10 years. I would not considered Big ones the f2p games because, yeap they are f2p. Angry Birds in androids have million players, this does not mean anything. Put 13 eruo/dollar per month in angry birds and then we can see how many players will have...

So there are not Big ones really, except wow. I am not a wow fan, I stopped playing it regularly since cata. I also don't think that Wow is the one and the only for sure. I think the problem of the latest "big" MMOs who "failed" and "forced" into the f2p business is that they tried to make a clone...but the fresh is fresh for only a month or 2, after that fresh goes away, most people prefer to go back to the MMO the invest so much time and made so many friends.

As for the option to buy sub with in-game gold is not so simple I think. EVE economy has build around that system and this is why is working. Wow is not designed that way and will take much more than turn a switch to do that. Wildstar will have this system at the beginning so I guess they have designed their economy to support that, so lets see how it goes

I am not trying to change your mind, nor saying you are wrong and I am right. I think is more a matter of perspective and how people see things...how much they demand from a game and where they set their "red lines" as far as game shop goes .

[Kuul]

F2P brings usually the worst into game. With subscription model like WoW, you usually have the quality maintained within updates and playerbase.

[Kassadin]

F2P brings usually the worst into game. With subscription model like WoW, you usually have the quality maintained within updates and playerbase.

I know what you mean. The community of League of Legends and the new and upcoming community of PoE has pretty much a... scum of the earth mentality (for lack of a better description.

[Zarc]

Of course not. There will always exist a variety of models as different people will prefer different things, and as such each model will have it's audience and a valid spot to occupy in the MMO market place.

[Vankrys]

I know what you mean. The community of League of Legends and the new and upcoming community of PoE has pretty much a... scum of the earth mentality (for lack of a better description.

is it the model or the game genre?

i too have experience really toxic behaviour in wow, particularly in LFr but in many automated, non guild event. If it wasn't that i found a guild, talked to them on teamspeak and spent enjoying evening with them, i would never have stuck with wow as long as i did. I don't want to derive the thread to LFR criticism, but automated tools does not retain me in the game, human relation does.

Could it be that MOBA style game suffer for lack of community/guild mechanic and too much automated matchmaking tools?

[ScooterPerpetual]

As long as there is a profit there will be subscriptions

[bergmann620]

I would like to buy the content i like (a dungeon, a raid, or an arena), not being force to subcribe to everything, even if less than half i actually play. I would like the option to opt out subcription for the slow month, without loosing total access to my game.

For these reason, i globally like the business of SWTOR (yeah i know, there are 3 of us in the entire world). subscribe to it while actively progressing in raid or PVP, switch back to F2P when i am taking it slow, leveling new toons, playing other game, waiting for new content.

So to me, hybrid is the solution, neither pure P2P nor pure F2P.

The trouble is, you have to have enough people with access to all the modes in order for matchmaking to not totally suck.

I think the best thing that could happen to the MMO business model is something close to what you're talking about... F2P for the first say, 10 hours a month, then bump up to subscription. All support services are reserved for paying members. There are two other things I would work in- decreasing sub cost for long-term subscribers. $14.99 for new subs, $13.99 after 3 months, $12.99 after 6 months. Second, you should be able to earn in-game currency that can be used for all account services and the cash shop. That would help push people to subscribe/stay subscribed.

Also, to every non-WoW game that wants to run on subs... Give people 2-3 months free to start. Get them hooked for real before you try to harvest that sub fee.

[Deleted]

The trouble is, you have to have enough people with access to all the modes in order for matchmaking to not totally suck.

I think the best thing that could happen to the MMO business model is something close to what you're talking about... F2P for the first say, 10 hours a month, then bump up to subscription. All support services are reserved for paying members. There are two other things I would work in- decreasing sub cost for long-term subscribers. $14.99 for new subs, $13.99 after 3 months, $12.99 after 6 months. Second, you should be able to earn in-game currency that can be used for all account services and the cash shop. That would help push people to subscribe/stay subscribed.

Also, to every non-WoW game that wants to run on subs... Give people 2-3 months free to start. Get them hooked for real before you try to harvest that sub fee.

That's also a struggle for subfee game. With f2p people can try games with nothing being in their way. Many people play with friends, try new games with friends and f2p is great for that. Most subfee games and also b2p takes too long before they got a trial to present. Why buy a game to try when there are many you can try for free?

[bergmann620]

That's also a struggle for subfee game. With f2p people can try games with nothing being in their way. Many people play with friends, try new games with friends and f2p is great for that. Most subfee games and also b2p takes too long before they got a trial to present. Why buy a game to try when there are many you can try for free?

Because so many of the free ones are terrible

My time is more valuable than my money for the most part =)

[Kassadin]

is it the model or the game genre?

i too have experience really toxic behaviour in wow, particularly in LFr but in many automated, non guild event. If it wasn't that i found a guild, talked to them on teamspeak and spent enjoying evening with them, i would never have stuck with wow as long as i did. I don't want to derive the thread to LFR criticism, but automated tools does not retain me in the game, human relation does.

Could it be that MOBA style game suffer for lack of community/guild mechanic and too much automated matchmaking tools?

Hmm... it could be a contribution of both actually. If you were to put a side by side comparison to a subscription base MMO's toxic community to a free to play community, the F2P game will still have a larger toxic community. Why? Because there isn't too much consequence when a ban happens. Think about if you were to get banned in LoL for example, you really only need to go create another account and easily recommence playing, while with a game like WoW there's the consequence of actually losing IRL money.

[Deleted]

Because so many of the free ones are terrible

My time is more valuable than my money for the most part =)

Same here, still the past year I played planetside2, dota2, Rift, warframe all good f2p-games. Neverwinter wasn't too shabby in terms of gameplay, but only 2 pvp maps and add to that buy best enchants for real cash and respec for real cash, just le crap and did I say just 2 pvp maps after a year almost?=) Yes, neverwinter a f2p-letdown. But the other games are sweet and has defenitely been worth the little game time I have =) My next hype isn't wildstar, isnt elder scrolls, it's magicka wizard wars... only let down would be a crappy f2p-model, hope they pull it off right =)

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Hmm... it could be a contribution of both actually. If you were to put a side by side comparison to a subscription base MMO's toxic community to a free to play community, the F2P game will still have a larger toxic community. Why? Because there isn't too much consequence when a ban happens. Think about if you were to get banned in LoL for example, you really only need to go create another account and easily recommence playing, while with a game like WoW there's the consequence of actually losing IRL money.

Best community I experienced is in Rift, both before and after f2p =) Well, warframe is pretty good as well, people dont write much in chats when grouped, if they do it's usually in Russian so I dont understand anything anyway =)

[Vankrys]

Best community I experienced is in Rift, both before and after f2p =) Well, warframe is pretty good as well, people dont write much in chats when grouped, if they do it's usually in Russian so I dont understand anything anyway =)

I feel this is some sort of "law" of MMO.
The bigger the MMO is, the more toxic is the community.

I have too experience surprisingly good behavior from player from smaller MMOs. Being used to wow, that actually surprised me the first time around, and though admittedly, the actual small MMO wasn't on par with the giant WoW in term of polish or content, i had a better time in it. This is one reason i stopped wow 2 years ago.

long time ago, i was listening to a podcast named octale and hordak vs the world, octale always said a MMO is only as good as its community. I kinda see what he meant now.

[Deleted]

I feel this is some sort of "law" of MMO.
The bigger the MMO is, the more toxic is the community.

I have too experience surprisingly good behavior from player from smaller MMOs. Being used to wow, that actually surprised me the first time around, and though admittedly, the actual small MMO wasn't on par with the giant WoW in term of polish or content, i had a better time in it. This is one reason i stopped wow 2 years ago.

long time ago, i was listening to a podcast named octale and hordak vs the world, octale always said a MMO is only as good as its community. I kinda see what he meant now.

Yea my best days in wow was when me and my friends faction changed to the almost none-existant alliance side on our medium populated server. People joined together to make raids happen and progress, tried our best in wintergrasp battles, helped out with crafting and gathering mats since AH was pretty empty. You had to cooperate to make things happen, and guess that was the same thing in Rift when the grind is long to get raid geared and if you want to raid you must have geared friends to help, and therefor people help out more in gearing process and joining through dungeons and leveling. Also remember a dude handing out bags and gear and stuff to new players in the city. So I think you are right, smaller is probably better.. =) I never raided in rift due to not having enough time, but I know that if I wanted I would have gotten all help and support to get ready to join =)

[papajohn4]

I feel this is some sort of "law" of MMO.
The bigger the MMO is, the more toxic is the community.

I have too experience surprisingly good behavior from player from smaller MMOs. Being used to wow, that actually surprised me the first time around, and though admittedly, the actual small MMO wasn't on par with the giant WoW in term of polish or content, i had a better time in it. This is one reason i stopped wow 2 years ago.

long time ago, i was listening to a podcast named octale and hordak vs the world, octale always said a MMO is only as good as its community. I kinda see what he meant now.

I don't think it has to do with how big an MMO is in my opinion..wow was big and had great community. It is tools and conveniences in-game that "teach" people otherwise or make them not care about their attitude. Also I think that new game generation is very different...there are far less "RP" gamers now. Old gamers came to rpg from role play pen&paper games and even in non RP servers, they most likely "act" with RP mindset

(if I knew better English I could explain it better...)

[esach88]

Subscription models are fine if there aren't other random fees hiding everywhere.. like with WOW. WOW is a special case, though - Blizzard has its teeth into people's pocket books and knows it.. so they suck as much money out as they can.

As far as the OP's comment on pay-to-win... pay to win means exactly that - paying to win at the game. If all you're paying for is cosmetic changes that do not give you an advantage in the game - it isn't pay to win. You can argue that your goal is to be the coolest looking cat in town... awesome.. cool... but that's not the point of the game.

Wait, WoW has "hidden fees"? I've been playing that game since it's release and I've never encountered a fee that I unknowingly paid for. Man I remember playing FF11 and having to pay extra just to have more than 2 characters (not sure the actual amount, was so long ago).

[Vankrys]

I don't think it has to do with how big an MMO is in my opinion..wow was big and had great community. It is tools and conveniences in-game that "teach" people otherwise or make them not care about their attitude. Also I think that new game generation is very different...there are far less "RP" gamers now. Old gamers came to rpg from role play pen&paper games and even in non RP servers, they most likely "act" with RP mindset

(if I knew better English I could explain it better...)

i would also tend to agree. people tends gather and team up in front of adversity. When convenience tools such as LFD or LFR didn't exist, people relied on friend list and reputation. Back in TBC, i would get whisper to come and tank this or that heroics dungeon. I never experience the one drawbacks of TBC, that is difficulty to find a group for a dungeon, i litterally refuse more group than i accepted. It comes from building a reputation. You play ok, you act nice, and people remembers you. That's why i think smaller community makes it easier to build reputation among.

good times, good times.

[esach88]

Yep. I can't justify paying $15 a month for WoW. It's a 9 year old game. No, I'm not paying full price for something that freaken old. They either have to lower the price or make it free-to-play.

With other games, like FF14, well, they game is just bad so of course people aren't going to subscribe. When they released their first "Hey this is how good we're doing!!", they said they had over a million REGISTERED users, not PAYING users.

It's worth it to me. I spend maybe 10 or more hours a week in wow (don't really play any other games) to me that is well worth the 15 dollar price point per month. Hell I bought the last of us (great game) for 60 bucks and finished it in 16 hours i think. For the same price as WoW I get over 160 hours of gameplay. I know it's different genres and stuff but when you look strictly at bang for buck. For me personally WoW is a better investment for my entertainment and i've been playing it for a decade

[Vankrys]

Wait, WoW has "hidden fees"? I've been playing that game since it's release and I've never encountered a fee that I unknowingly paid for. Man I remember playing FF11 and having to pay extra just to have more than 2 characters (not sure the actual amount, was so long ago).

i think he meant server transfer, account transfer, name changing, race changing, faction changing, as well as pet and mount that are in the game file but you need to purchase access too. Every 2 years, you also need to buy "unlock" in the form of an expansion to have acess to new continent, dungeon, raid and be able to reach max level.

[Fencers]

You are creating sets to match up your perceived definition.

It actually doesn't need a definition and it's not my definition.

Pay to win is an English language phrase. It is defined exactly by what it's words mean.

Pay
verb: pay; 3rd person present: pays; past tense: paid; past participle: paid; gerund or present participle: paying
1. give (someone) money that is due for work done, goods received, or a debt incurred.

To
preposition: to
1.used with the base form of a verb to indicate that the verb is in the infinitive, in particular. expressing purpose or intention.

Win
verb: win; 3rd person present: wins; past tense: won; past participle: won; gerund or present participle: winning
1. be successful or victorious in (a contest or conflict).

The hyphens attached on message boards are largely unnecessary. The phrase is not cryptic- it means exactly what it says. Pay to win.

You have to pay something and gain a win. Or winning, present participle.

A "win" in an MMO can be something as small as getting a mount at level 20. A "win" can also be getting an epic drop while questing. MMOs are a series of wins, many small some large. Even cosmetic items can be considered a "win".

This could not be true for any game ever made. It's impossible.

What you are describing is personal perception.

Gameplay is a objective reality. How one feels about gameplay is not.

Time is an asset being sold.

Yes. It could or could not make a difference to your win state based on game and game mode.

Saving time in itself is not necessarily a win in all games or modes.

But in MMOs time investment leads to greater rewards, taking a short cut in terms of time is almost cheating.

Not always. There are gameplay modes where by one doesn't or isn't expressly rewarded for time invested or there is a factor beyond time that is a core function of a mode.

So what is your actual definition of pay-to-win?

The one informed by the English language.

By your definition

No. English.

being able to pay to remove half the opponents pieces would not be pay-to-win in Chess.

That could potentially be paying to win.

The state of a win or process of winning is defined by the game rules itself. And as you said, losing pieces is not inherent to a win in Chess as the gameplay of Chess does not keep tick on how many pieces one has lost. But does depend on the capture or surrender of an opponent by way of their King piece.

One would be buying a winning advantage. Which could potentially and most likely lead to a win and inequity in play. Now that would be pay to win.

"Winning" is nearly always a consensus decision between the game and the players.

It's actually only defined by the game. The player is free to give up or call it a day when they wish or when a point of perceived inevitable defeat is reached.

Some games do end regardless of the player's attitude to their situation. Such as in solitaire or minesweeper.

Some do not.

The rules of a game define it's win state/conditions.

Taking WoW - do you win when you clear the top raid on heroic?

Yes. The gameplay informs such by rule and design.

when you're in BiS gear?

Yes. The gameplay informs such by rule and design.

when you finish a season as gladiator?

No. The gameplay does not inform such by rule or design.

when your gear is better than any other player on your server?

No. The gameplay does not inform such by rule or design.

when you've collected all the rare drop pets?

No. The gameplay does not inform such by rule or design.

when you've got your perfect transmog set?

No. The gameplay does not inform such by rule or design.

Time is effort. If I spend more time at the gym, I expect to end up fitter then someone who puts in half the time. If I spend more time working on a game, I expect to do better than someone who spends the same amount of time at work & digs out their credit card in-game. In the short term, that might not work out - I could be less skilled, genetically gifted, whatever - but over the long term, time equates to practice equates to skill equates to success

Inequity via time commitment is contra to fair competition. Time gating ignores mastery wholly.

It could be that one player is supremely skilled but short on time. But if an asymmetrical field of play is set up such that he need overcome a factor of time and not skill, then the game state is allowing an inequity between two players of desperate skill.

Actually, why not extend this logic to homes? Having a studio apartment with one bath should be free. But if you want a dishwasher, washing machines, an extra bedroom, what have you, charge quite a bit per month. Revolutionary.

Apartments already exist as such.

One of my first apartments had access to the bathroom, living room and bedroom included. Kitchen, washer/dryer and dishwasher were an extra cost per month. Or I could choose to use certain services as needed for a fee- $1.25 in change or so for the washer/dryer.

It's not uncommon in large cities where living space is at a premium.

[Deleted]

i think he meant server transfer, account transfer, name changing, race changing, faction changing, as well as pet and mount that are in the game file but you need to purchase access too. Every 2 years, you also need to buy "unlock" in the form of an expansion to have acess to new continent, dungeon, raid and be able to reach max level.

Rift was my first other game after wow, and back when it had subfee I remember how amazed I was: Omg, I can change server for free??!!
The first step out in a world where companies dont charge for everything they can=)