Would Ulduar have been epic if LFR existed back in 2009?

[Deleted]

I was just wondering if the reason we haven't had any truly "epic" raids since Ulduar (this is of course my opinion) may have something to do with the fact that you can SEE (I'm just talking about seeing) the raid content with the click of a button. I know Heroic modes are hard, but you can still see the bosses and environments in LFR extremely easily. I only raid through LFR because all I want is to see the content, I don't care about loot, achievements, mounts or progression. Before LFR I had an incentive to raid properly, and raids did feel a million times more epic when not served on a silver platter right in front of me.

Of course you could just "not use LFR", but the fact that there is a way to see the content that easily removes the incentive for people like me to raid properly, and also removes the "Epic" feel of the raid.

This is not a LFR QQ thread, I was just wondering why there IMO haven't been any truly memorable raids since the introduction of LFR.

Do you think that Ulduar would still be epic back then if 80% of the playerbase had completed it and killed Yogg-Saron? If you could SEE the raid in a few hours with the click of a button and then rushing through it with strangers? It got me thinking.

[Pull My Finger]

You'd first have to define what you actually mean when you use the term "epic".

[reckoner04]

I don't think it would have the same reputation as it does now.

[Yunru]

Lfr wouldnt pass 1.st boss

[Keny]

Not even close...

[vindicatorx]

I don't think you are using the word epic correctly. If by "would it have been the worst mistake ever made" then sure by all means that is what it would have been

[Sparky_b]

You might have had good intentions, OP, but this is just going to end up being a LFR vs Raiding topic.

But OT: Yes I think it would. Because you'd still have your "Ra Den" type of fight (Algalon) that would most likely be Heroic exclusive. But that also begs another question: How would fights like Freya and the Knocks be counted? Or Yogg and the various lights? Could those be triggered at any difficulty, Normal or higher, Heroic only? You can't really use Ulduar as an instance for this type of question, because the hard-mode content was done in a completely different way than our Heroic fights are today.

[Layuth]

Lfr wouldnt pass 1.st boss

Sure they would pass the first boss. The point of LFR is so that bad players can complete all content and Blizzard can keep millions of subscriptions. Any raid which can be done via LFR will never be "epic".

[Krekko]

I honestly believe it would have been less romanticized in retrospect.

Ulduar had a great level of both inclusion and exclusion with it's boss fights, mechanics and heroic modes/bosses.

Had it been as easily accessible as other raids VIA LFR it would have lost it's charm and that unique aspect to it. With that would go the fond memories.

Would it make it any less epic? Not really, it would just not be the bread and butter as it's treated now.

[Deleted]

Sigh...

Would SoO have been more epic if there were no LFR or Flex? Would Terrace or ToT?

As a follow-up, would either of these have been more epic if you never did LFR, never even knew it existed? Think about that one.

Sometimes, it feels like people are just saying LFR is shitty just to call it shitty, rather than to actually say WHY it's shitty.

[Buxton McGraff]

LFR ruins the raids for me yet for some reason I feel like I have to do it in order to get enough gear for normal raids.

So by the time I have enough gear for flex, I'm too bored with the raid already to want to do more.

[Deleted]

The story and lore of Ulduar would still be epic, just the boss fights would be somewhat trivialised.

I would love to see Ulduar return as a WoD heroic dungeon or challenge mode 5 man, now that could be epic.

[rayvio]

of course it would. LFR takes *nothing* away from a raid, it only opens it up to more people

[Deleted]

It would still be epic for me because most of the enjoyment was from beating the crazy hardmodes like Mimiron Firefighter and unlocking Algalon. We had normal mode cleared in the first two weeks. Normal mode guilds might have lost some of the epic feeling though. At least they could have a go at getting the legendary.

[psyquest]

LFR has ruined the raiding scene, even GS said so on twitter that it was one thing he regretted.

Flex would have been better. This is an mmo, people ought to be part of guilds and raid together. Flex allows people with very little time to raid and come and stop when they want. It also reinforce goodish gameplay and promotes playing together.

In LFR you have AFK people, trolls and people you would not dream grouping with under normal circumstances.

If Uldar had lfr it would have ruined it completely, they would have to make all bosses faceroll to start with.

The best thing blizzard should do is kill LFR.

[Deleted]

of course it would. LFR takes *nothing* away from a raid, it only opens it up to more people

You say that like the appeal of exclusivity isn't a widely recognised thing
Finishing the Algalon quest in Dalaran made our guild feel pretty damn great at the time, not now when pretty much anyone can go and do it.

[Feeline10]

You might have had good intentions, OP, but this is just going to end up being a LFR vs Raiding topic.

But OT: Yes I think it would. Because you'd still have your "Ra Den" type of fight (Algalon) that would most likely be Heroic exclusive. But that also begs another question: How would fights like Freya and the Knocks be counted? Or Yogg and the various lights? Could those be triggered at any difficulty, Normal or higher, Heroic only? You can't really use Ulduar as an instance for this type of question, because the hard-mode content was done in a completely different way than our Heroic fights are today.

If I had memories of LFR and Ulduar it'd ruin my killer WotLK nostalgia I have going. ICC heavily included.

- - - Updated - - -

Sigh...

Would SoO have been more epic if there were no LFR or Flex? Would Terrace or ToT?

As a follow-up, would either of these have been more epic if you never did LFR, never even knew it existed? Think about that one.

Sometimes, it feels like people are just saying LFR is shitty just to call it shitty, rather than to actually say WHY it's shitty.

It's shitty for those in competitive guilds who have to run the LFR's to get as much gear as possible before normal raids begin.

[Barnabas]

This is not a LFR QQ thread, I was just wondering why there IMO haven't been any truly memorable raids since the introduction of LFR.

Blizzard split up the old team and moved people to titan. So it wasn't the same minds that created wotlk, the burning crusade and vanilla for cata and mop. I think that has a lot to do with it more than lfr? Even cata and mop has some decent fights even though both end boss fights sucked.

[Deleted]

But that also begs another question: How would fights like Freya and the Knocks be counted? Or Yogg and the various lights? Could those be triggered at any difficulty, Normal or higher, Heroic only? You can't really use Ulduar as an instance for this type of question, because the hard-mode content was done in a completely different way than our Heroic fights are today.

In LFR all the harder difficulty modes would be disabled, to prevent troll mayhem. Towers disabled by default, button doesn't work, Freya only spawns when you kill her 3 adds, keepers enabled by default, etc.

[Tool03]

I'd say that SoO is actually alot of fun, maybe just shy of "epic" (even in LFR). But just because of lot of people have done something doesn't always mean it cant still be epic. Wrath Gate, Solo instances, some arena fights/brawlers.

The problem is simply that in LFR your not really vested in the experience. You don't get to go at your own pace and after the first few times your just there for the loot and you don't run into any real challenge because you chock it up to (*scrub group*) vs guild/friend runs where it's "hey guy's we did really good this week, we'll get em next week".

If you haven't done any Flex raiding I highly recommend it, I am only on at late late hours of the night so I have been out of guild raiding since Cata but now that flex is out it honestly feels alot more like "real raiding" and it's driven me to get back into raid leading of my own; which has given back some of that old spark I found back in BC.