MMOs: Is it time for the subscription-based model to go away?

[RoninaThorstone]

Omg, I level slow as snails even with boosts, in most games people level 2-3 chars same time as I level 1 even if I use boost one hour or two and they use none. Do I still win?=)

Apparently!

I am not sure what you won, but you did.

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So I'd pay 100$ on the game, good I get decent stuff. Then some rich guy comes and spends 1000$ on the game, and now I have no way to compete against him unless I pay the same or more.

Yes, he will beat you in hat collecting! And he will have more Annie skins than you! He is winning! Lol.

[Edge-]

The thing is, you pay what 50$ € whatever, and you get the same thing as everyone else gets.

This is exactly the same as any purchase. Any time you purchase DLC in DCUO or TSW, you get the exact same thing as everyone else who purchased the DLC, the same goes for EQ2 or LOTRO expansions.

Unless those who buy Deluxe edition get a mount and a pet or something similar to that and those who buy collectors edition get hard copy of the game + some goods like DvD, songs etc, just what all games have.

Yes, this is a common practice for all MMO's with paid expansions. Collectors editions always feature additional goodies, be they physical or digital (or both).

So P2P gives makes everyone equal

It provides an equal playing field provided, as mentioned before, you've purchased whatever the most recent expansion is.

P2W in F2P gives those who spend more money adventages over those who play for free or don't pay enough. So I'd pay 100$ on the game, good I get decent stuff. Then some rich guy comes and spends 1000$ on the game, and now I have no way to compete against him unless I pay the same or more.

I can literally think of no modern Western F2P MMO where someone who spends money will have an insurmountable advantage. They'll definitely get things faster and look more fabulous while doing it, but I can't think of a single one that flat out sells power you can't get through in-game methods. If you have one in mind, let me know what it is.

Plus like people have said about F2P games, you get bored fast because the grinds are so much and you will need to spend so much time into the game to get what you want end someone who blows money on it gets it instantly and you'll never get what he gets by playing without paying.

Which F2P games are like this? All but one or two of the F2P games I have installed don't have any more significant of a grind than your average MMO. They're not as streamlined as WoW, which shoots you to max level as fast as possible, but the grindiest MMO I currently have installed and play is SWTOR due to its XP penalty for free players. As for grinding out gear, I don't have any installed that are any grindier than WoW was in its BC era, which was far from grindy.

What if you decided to budget $15 a month, or even $10 a month, to spend on boosts if the grind gets too much. That's why the boosts exist. Yes, I know that's why the grind exists too. But guess what? P2P MMO's do the same thing with time-gates. WoW's legendary cloak quest chain is the perfect example of a massive time-gate for a very desirable reward.

So having to play a F2P game efficient and being on same level as others you need to pay. So why not pay a sub fee and be equal to everyone else? I'd prefer that.

No, you don't need to pay. In Rift, for example. You can pay to get some entry level raid gear, but money does literally nothing to help you get the second tier (currently top tier) of raid gear. Like, nothing at all. All money does, is get you to the point where you can earning that gear faster than someone else because you acquired lower quality raid/dungeon gear faster.

Also would like to point out that the more money the company gets the more money they put into the game to make it better. Also you need to pay the devs, GMs, designers etc. It's work, you cant expect them to work for free, making a expansion that requires a lot of resources to make it free. And to pay them you have to make money. That's how real life works.

You're assuming that P2P games inherently make more than F2P games. This is a false assumption, and one of the reasons many MMO's transitioned was because there was more money for them with a F2P model compared to a P2P model.

[Toiran]

a F2P game can get away with as a lesser quality product as you aren't paying anything other than by choice.

I'd rather pay for a game, or pay for a subscription, as it imply's a level of quality, and if that level of quality isn't there, I wouldn't be paying for it/playing it in the first place so that point is moot.

I'd rather WoW stayed subs, going F2P is possibly the only thing so far that would make me seriously question my subscription permanently.

[Deleted]

Is it time for <insert random stuff I don't like> to go away ?

[Deleted]

a F2P game can get away with as a lesser quality product as you aren't paying anything other than by choice.

I'd rather pay for a game, or pay for a subscription, as it imply's a level of quality, and if that level of quality isn't there, I wouldn't be paying for it/playing it in the first place so that point is moot.

I'd rather WoW stayed subs, going F2P is possibly the only thing so far that would make me seriously question my subscription permanently.

But if subfee doesnt ensure quality or a certain amount of content? You might still think wow provides quality and content of your taste, personally they lost me in Cata when they according to me stopped deliver quality or content worth the money. I noticed what they provided afterwards, and I felt I get more fullfilling gaming experience from other games for free than what wow gives for cash.

[Kiry]

I think everyone has a different value to put to money and time. Sub model works if the value is perceived to be good. And "good" is at the eye of the beholder.

[Maggibesti]

But if subfee doesnt ensure quality or a certain amount of content? You might still think wow provides quality and content of your taste, personally they lost me in Cata when they according to me stopped deliver quality or content worth the money. I noticed what they provided afterwards, and I felt I get more fullfilling gaming experience from other games for free than what wow gives for cash.

The quality of cata(even though it was horrible compared to other content in WoW previously and present) is still a LOT more content and quality then other MMO games have. Some people think Cata was the best some don´t It's personal opinion. I think Classic PvP and PvE was the best, some say it was the worst. And lets face it, without subs, WoW would have less active players and it wouldn't even have close to enough content then it does now. Plus I don't really see why people complain about 15$ or 10€ a month. This is nothing, even working at a minimum wage job you can still effort to play WoW. Wow isn't JUST a video game, its kinda a hobby. And when you look at it like a hobby, it's cheap as hell. Some people spend 1000$ up to 10.000 for their hobby.

[IzoGray]

I know myself and at least 10-20 other people won't play WoW anymore because

1. There are dozens of better multiplayer games
2. There are dozens of better multiplayer games we don't have to pay monthly for
3. There are dozens of better games in general
4. There are a few mmo games better than WoW that are F2P.
5. You not only have to pay monthly for WoW but pretty soon you will be paying an extra $40-60 per year just to continue playing at end game.
6. There are already a ton of microtransactions in WoW
7. Does there really need to another reason?

[Deleted]

The quality of cata(even though it was horrible compared to other content in WoW previously and present) is still a LOT more content and quality then other MMO games have. Some people think Cata was the best some don´t It's personal opinion. I think Classic PvP and PvE was the best, some say it was the worst. And lets face it, without subs, WoW would have less active players and it wouldn't even have close to enough content then it does now. Plus I don't really see why people complain about 15$ or 10€ a month. This is nothing, even working at a minimum wage job you can still effort to play WoW. Wow isn't JUST a video game, its kinda a hobby. And when you look at it like a hobby, it's cheap as hell. Some people spend 1000$ up to 10.000 for their hobby.

No, it's not the money because it didnt fall a sudden poverty of wow players from cata and onward, sure financial crisis but like I said, I probably had less money when playing wow than I do now. So it's not about the money but the moneys worth. People didnt get poor, but from cata launch and onward more and more people stopped paying blizzard for wow. Personally, I didnt feel game was worth my money anymore. And I also noticed that other games give me more and of better quality for free. So subfee doesn't mean providing more and better. Many people agreed with me and therefor subs for wow keep decreasing, people are not returning anymore.
People don't pay, not because they are poor, but because they don't feel like the game is worth the money anymore.

[Somaldelhar]

Well, like I said people didnt hesitate paying subfee for wow in the past, but a lot of people choose not to for each quarter that passed since launch of cata. You might enjoy the updates and current content launches. Personally Cata was a big letdown to me in terms of updates, I did pvp, I did all the raiding, I even did archeology almost more than any persons sanity could handle, I played AH with so much gold and nothing to buy. I was here at mmo-champion, used to reading the regular blues with updates to come, weeks passed and the blues were pretty much none existant. I used to love the game, but I noticed it was time to pack my bags and leave the game, and I did so... for good. And I follow updates but no, I dont miss the game and I dont feel like opening the wallet and pay for the sake of paying and yes, I think there are f2p games out there offering more fun games and gameplay to me right now.

So you might enjoy the game, but to be frank the wow community didn't suddenly get poor with cata launch, and when people said you can't leave wow, just take breaks because there's no other game out there just isn't true anymore. People are leaving wow for good, people dont want to pay for the game and the content and the expansions, it's not because they are poor now and had lots of money in past, Im sure they spend money on other things, I know I do. Personally I probably had less money when I played wow than I do now =) But wow is not worth the money anymore, and that's why you see people stop paying their subscription more and more for each quarter that passes.

i'm not going to say cata wasn't a flop. it was. there's really no denying that. however, mists took a 180 degree turn in design choices. instead of flying everywhere, they limited it until you got max level. instead of chain heroics theres a bunch of other options for valor among other things. LFR, while still a pain in the ass, is a good mechanic to get people who want to raid into it. cata was a mixed bag at best. MoP on the other hand is hard to say it was as bad. yes there are those that are like "OMG PANDAS!" and start frothing at the mouth for no real reason. lets ignore them, as they're reasons are either wrong(kung-fu panda logic, pandaren came first) or for the most part have no real reason to hate on them aside from minor personal aesthetic. gameplay wise, they don't actually change all that much. gameplay as well as diversity of content, has taken a dramatic rise since cata, even if its still on the easy side in comparison to before. there are a lot of new options, some of which were just being tested on a live audience. now that these things are tested, they can be refined(a good example is the farm and garrison), and improved. with the advent of flex raiding they've made a more organized version of "real" raiding(and i use the term loosely, i don't wanna start a fight) possible for less organized people outside of LFR. lfr was more akin to a random dungeon than an actual raid. you went in did your shit and got out. nothing more or less. flex raiding is admittedly much easier than normal, but much mroe organized than LFR. its a healthy medium. for single player content theres the proving grounds and brawlers guilds, both tests of your skill as a player. mists added a lot of things that directly contradict cata's designs, and in my mind thats a good thing.

even just with talents there are some dramatic differences. it used to be that talents were a set in stone thing. you had to pay quite dearly to reset them. now you can change out talents and glyphs as a fight demands, making for a more dynamic playstyle. for example on my resto shaman i usually go with call of the elements(finishes cooldown on all totems lower than 3 minute CD) to have more healing stream totems out. on the garalon fight though, less healing was needed and more cc was needed. so i switched to totemic projection(same tier of talents as call of the elements. allows you to move your totem to another spot once every 10 seconds) so i could accurately hit with my capacitor totem(AoE stun after a 3-5 second charge, depending on glyph) when they charged an NPC. this makes talent and glyph choices much more thought provoking on a regular basis(at least in raiding) and makes them all in all a lot more interesting. its not "get stuck with X ability" its "swap abilities to best suit a fight" which is a much better test of your skill as a player. admittedly some tiers are "this is best for your spec". talents aren't perfect yet, but they've only been using the system for one expac, so i'll give em the benefit of the doubt.

another example is death knight talents "runic corruption" and "blood tap". blood tap gives you X amount of charges death coil/frost strike/rune strike(depends on spec) using these charges allows you to activate runes(you can store 12, with 5 used per rune activated). this would make for an active playstyle. runic corruption however is passive, in that your attacks have a 45% chance to activate "runic corruption" increasing your rune regeneration by 100% for 4 seconds. now, the amount of runes regenerated from these is about equal, but they offer significantly different playstyle choices(active regen or passive). obviously blood tap is a bit more malleable to a given situation, but over-all its a matter of preference. admittedly the 3rd talent is lackluster at best, but as i said earlier, new system. theres bound to be flaws.

while i agree that as it is WoW may not be the best MMO out there anymore, they ARE trying to be. i would like to give them the benefit of the doubt, and 15$ a month is a small price to pay for my continued enjoyment of it.

[Eroginous]

According to you, if it saves time or allows you to skip RNG based tasks then it's P2W, so EXP pots are P2W.

Also, what if someone's definition of winning is beating the celestial tourny?

Again, we are getting into "feels" territory where it's only "winning" if it's something you care about.

I'm not sure what you're having trouble understanding. Very clearly, 'pay to win' has everything to do with player power and nothing to do with vanity or XP gain. The XP buff potion is not 'pay to win' because it does not increase your characters power. If it provided some sort of an extra stacking stat increase that was not obtainable in game, then yes, that would be 'pay to win.'

Examples of Blizzard 'pay to win' games:

Hearthstone
Diablo 3 (though this is changing with Reaper of Souls).

[Angella]

The MMO market is like any other market. Diversity is typically optimal. Plenty of room for F2P and Sub models in the sandbox. If you're problem is you just don't want to pay a sub for a game you really like (which I suspect is the case), tough.

[Deleted]

subscription has its place and should definitely stay.

[zito]

subscription has its place and should definitely stay.

This^

It's just few games do sub model justice.

[Krommm]

I'll happily pay to not play with peasants that think paying a small fee for a game they like is an impossible burden.

Haha, I even alluded to this misguidance that many players seem to have. (Hint: I used to believe it once) Look at the whiners on MMO-C, the WoW forums or even in game. To the rest of what you said, I absolutely agree. I generally only stay subbed so long as I have friends still playing, and some sort of vague progression. (Raiding, PvP, general content if I'm feeling really casual)

I think what can be argued is that a lot of time and loss of frustration can simply be bought, which very well may keep a player playing and not quitting. If all I have to do is grind some heroics to get into LFR, that is a complete joke and hardly any time at all. If I have to level in WoW, it is also trivial. Yes, you may save some time, but it's fast relative to most other games.

While undergoing an AH removal and game revamp (and not an MMO), just look at D3. I could spend a boatload of cash to get near top of the line gear, and save ridiculous amounts of time. (The irony is there is little point to playing if you can just buy everything, when the item hunt is the primary factor of gameplay.) Alas if you can skip hundreds of hours, or a marginal 30+ hours of pure torture(as in facing people who spent tons of REAL cash to SKIP ahead getting much better gear, or in the case of CCGs cards. Getting destroyed by an unfair advantage while starting out is a load of crap), I would consider it P2W.

I think while opinions will vary, there are many different versions of P2W. Some may only think P2W is if you can only get a 700 ilvl item for paying cash, when the top level item is the "grind" of the i600 cloak for example. (No cases I know of currently)

Anyhow, this thread mostly went offtopic debating P2W. I still stand by saying the sub model is long overdue, but Blizzard will hang on to it for as long as it's profitable. (Quite some time left.)

Edit: I will concede that Sub games are fine as long as they have reasonable content additions regularly. As in every 3 months at least. I will bring up Rift, because I saw that game bombarded by content updates (didn't look horrible) much faster than WoW seems ever could hope to achieve.

[papajohn4]

I don't "boycotaz" anything. No clue why you think I would. But look at the future already, we have EQNL/EQN in the future, a high quality F2P MMO. Blizzards Titan is rumored to have been partially brought back to basics to re-work it and change its business model to a possible F2P model. Companies are starting to come around to the "big budget" F2P games now. It's taken a while, since F2P only became a big thing in the past few years and MMO's take 4+ to develop, but we're already seeing a shift.

I strongly disagree that the F2P MMO's we'll see releasing in a few years will be the same as the lower budget MMO's we've seen release in the past. The market now exists, and big companies want in.

I did not talked about you specifically, but in any new MMO I see, 90% of the people(here, on massively, other mmo sites) say "I like it a lot, but I will not pay 13 dollar for it and I will wait for it to go f2p" and this usually is followed by hate comments and ironic comments like "the next swtor, call me in 6 months when it goes f2p".

As for EQNL/EQN it is not out yet, all we know for it is some happy developer tell us how awesome their game is, as is the case for all MMOs last years. SInce when quality of a product is measured by their developer comments before even the game release? And the titan Business model is only rumor. The game has almost been abandoned and we may not see it before 2017-2018 and we are unsure about its business model...so I think is not valid to count it among the "quality games that launched as f2p".

[Sharuko]

One side effect is that you won't see a lot of companies invest 150+ million dollars in F2P MMOs, B2P yeah, but F2P is too risky. I can see the Blizzard's of the world doing it because they have free cash lying around, but no one else. We will see MMOs with Neverwinter type production value MMOs, but we won't see the SWTOR's, WildStar and ESO's anymore.

[Deleted]

One side effect is that you won't see a lot of companies invest 150+ million dollars in F2P MMOs, B2P yeah, but F2P is too risky. I can see the Blizzard's of the world doing it because they have free cash lying around, but no one else. We will see MMOs with Neverwinter type production value MMOs, but we won't see the SWTOR's, WildStar and ESO's anymore.

I honestly doubt any gaming company got "free cash" around, and I doubt they do f2p out of goodwill. Blizzard will go f2p with Heartstone, heroes of storm and titan for completely different reasons, and it's not because of goodwill or that they plan on losing cash and profit tbh, did you really think otherwise?:P

[papajohn4]

One side effect is that you won't see a lot of companies invest 150+ million dollars in F2P MMOs, B2P yeah, but F2P is too risky. I can see the Blizzard's of the world doing it because they have free cash lying around, but no one else. We will see MMOs with Neverwinter type production value MMOs, but we won't see the SWTOR's, WildStar and ESO's anymore.

This is exactly what I said earlier

So all of you who think f2p is the future and you "boycotaz" new MMOs to force them into f2p model, think that in the future you won't get lotro, swtor, rift you will get Dragon Prophet and runes of magic...do you seriously believe that EA would spent all the millions in swtor if they had planed to start as f2p?

[Lochton]

No, just no.

I rather wish for my subscription option to stay, than to be smothered in some games.

Some MMO's going F2P basicly ruined the most, so no - keep the sub option.