Herbalism vs. Tailoring

[ThrashMetalFtw]

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you simply don't understand how haste breakpoints work. They shorten the time between ticks, which has nothing to do with Pandemic or the DoT running out.

Actually, you don't understand how dots work. Haste breakpoints don't shorten the time between ticks. Haste does. Every single point of Haste decreases the interval between your ticks. The only thing that happens when you reach a "breakpoint" is that the duration is reset to it's initial length (which is pointless when you have pandemic).

i.e. Troll, Herb / Engi.

No. Just, no...

Realistically, Engi/Tailoring/BS are the 3 "best" proffs out there for any dotclasses (ahead of the other static 320 Int perk proffs). Herbalism is dogshit and only above Mining and Skinning, why would you even consider it?

[Santoisms]

Actually, you don't understand how dots work. Haste breakpoints don't shorten the time between ticks. Haste does. Every single point of Haste decreases the interval between your ticks. The only thing that happens when you reach a "breakpoint" is that the duration is reset to it's initial length (which is pointless when you have pandemic).




No. Just, no...

Realistically, Engi/Tailoring/BS are the 3 "best" proffs out there for any dotclasses (ahead of the other static 320 Int perk proffs). Herbalism is dogshit and only above Mining and Skinning, why would you even consider it?

Simming and overall testing from several Warlocks clearly state that Herbalism is the best of with Engineering.

[Baconeggcheese]

Herbalism is dogshit and only above Mining and Skinning, why would you even consider it?

Except it isn't though... it's not really any better than or worse than the other professions... because again they all have totally insignificant differences besides the dumb ones.

[Jessicka]

Impending progress? Of course not. But if you are in a serious raiding environment and not taking full advantage of what the game gives you at that time then you're doing it wrong.

Don't really feel that's a productive attitude. I'm playing the wrong spec with the wrong profs on the wrong faction on a low pop RP server, yet I'm pretty much at the same place as you in terms of progress. All our shortcomings would be better overcome by better play all round, myself included; DPS isn't really a worry at this point - we overgear the content.

And Blacksmithing would make the most sense if they go through with the changes, the also say this every expansion and it never goes through. Without snapshotting and haste breakpoints, professions / race is really what hardcore Warlocks have left.

Disagree. Demo is way better without such excessive reliance on snapshotting and resources being the thing, and are breakpoints really a thing with so much early refreshing thanks to snapshotting/pandemic at this point anyway?

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Simming and overall testing from several Warlocks clearly state that Herbalism is the best of with Engineering.

If I sim Dodge and somehow make it a better stat than Haste, that doesnt make it true.

The numbers are there, the overall Haste provided by Herbalism have significantly less PP than the overall Int provided by Tailoring (the Int/Haste ratio is 1:1,5 not 1:2 like gems are). Both are procs/use abilities, so the argument that one is better than the other because of dot snapshotting instantly fails.

It really is that simple.

Even if you cling to your hope that Herbalism is worth using, Tailoring is still a bit stronger than Engi.

[dahri]

Realistically, Engi/Tailoring/BS are the 3 "best" proffs out there for any dotclasses (ahead of the other static 320 Int perk proffs). Herbalism is dogshit and only above Mining and Skinning, why would you even consider it?

What are you talking about? 2880 haste that lines up perfectly with DS (when not using AD), and for every other DS also with berserking is clearly at minimum very good. Not as you say dogshit. And considering most DPS for affliction comes from the insane burst it doesn't take a genius to realize it is the best profession.

It also seems to be a misconception going around that haste only brings DPS when reaching a threshold. The only thing a threshold does is make the duration of the DoT slightly longer, and in that way makes you able to keep a snapshotted DoT up longer and also spend more time using filler between reapplying the DoT. The DPS increase of haste in linear between thresholds!

And considering most of the top ranked affliction warlocks use herbalism (and are horde) I would say is a good indication that herbalism isn't "dogshit"

[Werst]

It comes down to personal preference, playstyle, faction/race, and what you spend more time playing. If you are troll and mainspec affliction and are farming content (ie short fights) then herbalism is probably your friend since its just that much more on the opener. If you spend more time as destro and are nearing the end of progression (but aren't done quite yet) then tailoring will probably suit you better. Both work just destro with troll + herbalism tends to be too much haste with a M > H > C setup which is the one you would use if you MS dest with an aff OS. Destro with a M > C > H setup as troll with herbal will open really hard and make better use of it but again it means reforge between fights when going to aff OS when min/maxing. Again ALL of this still hinges on minor min/max playstyle preference.

I was herbalism with engineering till the great UVLS beatdown when I started spending most of my time as destro during progression. Then I swapped herbalism for tailoring but again was just a preference thing since I found myself hitting the gcd cap like a short woman's cervix way too much of the time.

[Santoisms]

What are you talking about? 2880 haste that lines up perfectly with DS (when not using AD), and for every other DS also with berserking is clearly at minimum very good. Not as you say dogshit. And considering most DPS for affliction comes from the insane burst it doesn't take a genius to realize it is the best profession.

It also seems to be a misconception going around that haste only brings DPS when reaching a threshold. The only thing a threshold does is make the duration of the DoT slightly longer, and in that way makes you able to keep a snapshotted DoT up longer and also spend more time using filler between reapplying the DoT. The DPS increase of haste in linear between thresholds!

And considering most of the top ranked affliction warlocks use herbalism (and are horde) I would say is a good indication that herbalism isn't "dogshit"

This.

It is all about personal preference, considering the difference between Tailoring and Herbalism is only 3000 DPS in a sim perfect situation. Next expansion Blacksmithing probably will be best anyway, since gems will be more rare on gear as well as gems will be powerful and no more socket bonuses.

- - - Updated - - -

Don't really feel that's a productive attitude. I'm playing the wrong spec with the wrong profs on the wrong faction on a low pop RP server, yet I'm pretty much at the same place as you in terms of progress. All our shortcomings would be better overcome by better play all round, myself included; DPS isn't really a worry at this point - we overgear the content.


Disagree. Demo is way better without such excessive reliance on snapshotting and resources being the thing, and are breakpoints really a thing with so much early refreshing thanks to snapshotting/pandemic at this point anyway?

Our guild has had many problems which has hindered our progression, if you don't mind being different professions / race from the top guys that's fine especially if you aren't hitting enrages with bosses. My philosophy is if the game gives you the opportunity why not use it to do more damage / more burst?

[dahri]

There is no winning with you is it. Of curse some other profession might be better next expansion. But that wasn't the question was it?

[Santoisms]

There is no winning with you is it. Of curse some other profession might be better next expansion. But that wasn't the question was it?

Absolutely not.

[Cebel]

I just stuck with engineering and tailoring. Tailoring is great for all specs and Herb would't be so nice for destro and I'm guessing it's only really worth it for the other specs if it helps you hit a break point.

Herbalism is actually our highest dps profession ( especially for affliction ). The biggest reason being that the initial burst as affliction determines whether or not you're dps will be good on a specific boss encounter, and having that bump in haste with berserking all trinkets etc is absolutely HUGE. Not to mention its a 2 min cd and lines up with darksoul ( and usually amp trinket proc ) perfectly.

[Santoisms]

Herbalism is actually our highest dps profession ( especially for affliction ). The biggest reason being that the initial burst as affliction determines whether or not you're dps will be good on a specific boss encounter, and having that bump in haste with berserking all trinkets etc is absolutely HUGE. Not to mention its a 2 min cd and lines up with darksoul ( and usually amp trinket proc ) perfectly.

^^ This should be read multiple times.

[Cebel]

^^ This should be read multiple times.

Lol. Trust me. If it wasnt a relatively significant dps increase for the best spec for progression this tier... i wouldn't of dropped my blacksmithing for it. RIP when the squish happens and i end up going back to BS

[Santoisms]

Lol. Trust me. If it wasnt a relatively significant dps increase for the best spec for progression this tier... i wouldn't of dropped my blacksmithing for it. RIP when the squish happens and i end up going back to BS

^^ Also this, I still think if played correctly Aff can still beat Destro on any fight, progression or not.

[Baconeggcheese]

^^ Also this, I still think if played correctly Aff can still beat Destro on any fight, progression or not.

Aff doesn't sustain as high if you're just worried about effective dps and not padding. Any of the long fights (paragons, garrosh) you'll see less effective dps as aff vs dest.

It's fine on damn near every fight though, I know I used aff for the majority of progression until we got to the hard bosses.

[Cebel]

Aff doesn't sustain as high if you're just worried about effective dps and not padding. Any of the long fights (paragons, garrosh) you'll see less effective dps as aff vs dest.

It's fine on damn near every fight though, I know I used aff for the majority of progression until we got to the hard bosses.

uhh. Uhh, paragons is def better as affi. Especially for the few phases when you need to split dmg to spawn the amber on one boss before burning down the other. Garrosh yes, destro is better.

Affi is the stronger spec ( at least in 25 man ) on every fight except immerseus, sha, spoils, siegecrafter ( depends on strat really ), and garrosh. Outside of those 5 the specs are either neck and neck or affi wins by a pretty decent margin.

[Baconeggcheese]

uhh. Uhh, paragons is def better as affi. Especially for the few phases when you need to split dmg to spawn the amber on one boss before burning down the other. Garrosh yes, destro is better.

Affi is the stronger spec ( at least in 25 man ) on every fight except immerseus, sha, spoils, siegecrafter ( depends on strat really ), and garrosh. Outside of those 5 the specs are either neck and neck or affi wins by a pretty decent margin.

uhh. huh.

Outside of padding aff sustains nowhere near as high as the other specs and the dps falls off like crazy after the opener. On short pulls and short duration fights aff will look fantastic since the opener burst hasn't entirely worn off, in any sustained dps situations aff falls off unless you get some insanely lucky rppm.

and hell destruction has been top 2 target cleave damn near this entire xpac even when it was shitty. Not that the korven burn ever really works out as a 100% cleave fest and is usually single target one or the other these days. Unless again you're worried about padding.

I really feel like with the fights you're naming you're not comprehending I'm talking 100% effective damage and none of the padding that goes on during a fight like immersius or garrosh. For instance on garrosh ain't nobody care about your aoe padding on that fight. All that matters is boss dps and the occasional cleave on a weapon.... if aff was competitive sustained single target and 2 target cleave you would be arguing for aff on that fight.

Cause we both sure as hell know that even if we didn't pad our asses off on those warbringers they would die just the same.

[Ragedaug]

BACON! I totally agree, you shouldn't have to be goated into Herb/Engi and Troll as a Warlock. I just don't see the nerfs / squishes happening. They honestly try to do it every expansion in one way or another and the hardcores always tell em no.

I think you missed his point, which is regardless of whether or not there is a squish, it already doesn't matter. The difference is that post squish instead of being a 3k difference, which to your mind seems significant, the difference between the two profs will be "3". So your mind will automatically switch to "the difference between the two is not tangible enough to measure". So he's saying he wished the squish was already here not because it would make a difference in your min/max's but rather because it would stop people from obsessing over them quite to the extent they are today.

You are talking about a 0.75% difference between the two profs on a perfect simulated fight. Every variable will swing the pendulum back and forth as to which prof is better. I would suggest, personally, playing what you enjoy - due to the very small difference. Otherwise, if you can't enjoy it unless you feel you have maxed (which I can understand as well), follow what those ahead of you are doing. It's working for them and the difference on the sim isn't substantial enough to overrule the ruling on the field.

[Baconeggcheese]

I love you ragedaug, you understand me.

[Cebel]

uhh. huh.

Outside of padding aff sustains nowhere near as high as the other specs and the dps falls off like crazy after the opener. On short pulls and short duration fights aff will look fantastic since the opener burst hasn't entirely worn off, in any sustained dps situations aff falls off unless you get some insanely lucky rppm.

and hell destruction has been top 2 target cleave damn near this entire xpac even when it was shitty. Not that the korven burn ever really works out as a 100% cleave fest and is usually single target one or the other these days. Unless again you're worried about padding.

I really feel like with the fights you're naming you're not comprehending I'm talking 100% effective damage and none of the padding that goes on during a fight like immersius or garrosh. For instance on garrosh ain't nobody care about your aoe padding on that fight. All that matters is boss dps and the occasional cleave on a weapon.... if aff was competitive sustained single target and 2 target cleave you would be arguing for aff on that fight.

Cause we both sure as hell know that even if we didn't pad our asses off on those warbringers they would die just the same.

Ya I guess every warlock that killed these bosses top 20 in the world during progression were all just padding. There was no real reason we played one spec over the other except for the fact that we could pad pad pad. Yep. You caught us. I really don't think you understand or comprehend what exactly padding is. This topics been answered enough already so I'll just leave this thread now.