Since we are going to get nerfed next expansion..

[Baconeggcheese]

No, he's talking about a trinket proc, or some other proc/buff. You're assuming.

1: You're also bad at reading comprehension
2: if you're not going to read all the responses since that post (that conversation went well beyond that post) you need to not randomly respond to it.

[Deleted]

With MG I think there's probably room now to get Searing Pain back for those quick nuke moments; I think Haunt was supposed to fill that as it does hit pretty hard, but it is terribly expensive with the Shard cost to use it that way. And I agree that we don't need both SB:SS and normal SS, one or the other is fine.

well the way it currently is locks sorta need SB:SS and normal SS bcoz it prevents a lot of ramp up time especially on pull, but they could easily add something similar to what death knights have to apply both their diseases at once, and then put it on a 30-60 sec cd.

[Xandy]

well the way it currently is locks sorta need SB:SS and normal SS bcoz it prevents a lot of ramp up time especially on pull, but they could easily add something similar to what death knights have to apply both their diseases at once, and then put it on a 30-60 sec cd.

I think the problem with that is if SB:SS puts SS on CD, no one would ever use it except on pure single target fights. I personally could do without SB:SS since it's main use was to allow quick multi dotting, and the new SS fills that gap. Really how hard is it to cast UA and a couple GCD's on the pull?

What I would like is some more survivability for Affliction, perhaps a variation of Ember Tap; i.e. consume a shard for a HoT or maybe a shield, something more powerful than Ember Tap since generating Shards is much slower than Embers.

[Deleted]

obviously it wouldnt put SS on cd as the idea im talking about wouldnt be related with SS, it would essentially work like SB:SS except it would be a spell in itself with a relatively short cd.

[Deleted]

1. Remove Soul Swap
2. Nerf resource generation when something dies for destro and affli
3. nerf destro
4. buff demo

Demo fotm next patch the dream

Demo was FoTM through pretty much all 5.2/5.3 It's nice that destro got some love I think, especially considering the concerns alot of the community had going into 5.4.

- - - Updated - - -

I think we will lose KJC in WoD. After all the blue posts/tweets between 5.3 and 5.4 about how they wanted to "reign in" caster movement and keep hunters as the main mobile ranged dps. Which fucking sucks because allowing ALL ranged to move and cast at least their main filler would open up more avenues for boss mechanics etc.

[Jessicka]

Demo was FoTM through pretty much all 5.2/5.3 It's nice that destro got some love I think, especially considering the concerns alot of the community had going into 5.4.

- - - Updated - - -

I think we will lose KJC in WoD. After all the blue posts/tweets between 5.3 and 5.4 about how they wanted to "reign in" caster movement and keep hunters as the main mobile ranged dps. Which fucking sucks because allowing ALL ranged to move and cast at least their main filler would open up more avenues for boss mechanics etc.

Demo was fotm because of a broken trinket to be fair, they fixed that then unnecessarily nerfed damage as well.

Also not sure how improving ranged mobility increases options for boss mechanics when movement itself has been such a pivotal and central one to almost every encounter since the game was made. It's why it's so popular as a talent and idea, because it's so useful. Making movement easier makes the game easier.

[Grizelda]

There are many games that don't have turret casters, and the boss fights are engaging.

Having to doge things while preforming your rotation properly and responding to procs is quite rewarding.

Having to doge things while not being able to move is not so much fun after 6+ years. I understand that there would be balance consequences to our damage if mobility was increased (like hunters) but it seems like KJC is an acceptable option in it's current form.

I understand what you are saying Jess but how can you not at least understand (not agree) with the other side of the coin.

[Jessicka]

There are many games that don't have turret casters, and the boss fights are engaging.

Having to doge things while preforming your rotation properly and responding to procs is quite rewarding.

Having to doge things while not being able to move is not so much fun after 6+ years. I understand that there would be balance consequences to our damage if mobility was increased (like hunters) but it seems like KJC is an acceptable option in it's current form.

I understand what you are saying Jess but how can you not at least understand (not agree) with the other side of the coin.

Moving is hard, I understand completely that people would want that making easier; having KJC as a trade off against a clear and tangible DPS increase is vaguely acceptable - the issue is that it is not really clear enough. One charge of AD you can pretty much take or leave especially if you want to use Service; and MF I could write an essay about how poorly designed and implemented it is.

Other games were built from the ground up with mobile casting innate to the design of the game - WoW is not one of them and it would take a lot of core design changes to make it so - changes that would arguably fundamentally change the game 'too much' by changing the overall feel of the game to something 'not WoW', but maybe Guild Wars 2 instead; I didn't get much mileage out of GW2.

It's also one of those things that I think is probably novel at first; and it was overpowered in its 4.1 incarnation - Novel and OP make it very hard to let go of. I don't feel for a moment that it ever added to gameplay other than for those reasons. It's the same reason people don't want to let go of snapshotting; they simply don't want to be nerfed and the fallback argument is that "it's hard and hard things should be rewarded". I could go back a few pages and find posters talking about how UVLS Demo was hard and they didn't want it to go because it was supposedly hard - it's gone and now the principal complaint is that Demo is now much harder and unrewarding as a result.

[Baconeggcheese]

Moving is hard...

I wouldn't say moving is hard, but more of an RNG inconvenience. Generally speaking when a mechanic forces you to move there is no skillcap involved in order to get your cast off and then move, it's usually *you should be freaking moving already but you're so worried about your dps you're gonna try to finish that ca- OOP you just got 1shot* or you moved like a good raider and suffered a dps loss for it.

Just like snapshots there's a very low skillcap ceiling for it (in moving's case its just knowing how to move in gcds) and people / blizzard want to pretend its something it isn't. Really all it does is create an artificial way to randomly lower raid dps which is probably why they want to get away from movement dps since those mechanics lose half their value if people don't suffer a loss for moving out of them.

I don't really care either way, just makes rng frustrations during fights more prevalent which is completely ok by me as they're usually healthy for the game despite peoples anger towards them.

Demo is now much harder and unrewarding as a result.

Wouldn't agree with this at all, just has less passive damage now. Demo is unrewarding not because of difficulty but because even when played flawlessly(which no one does) it is still significantly under performing.

[WillFeral]

These are the threads Blizzard dev's come to get a good laugh at how bad the player base is at assuming with very little knowledge of what is to come and let alone the small knowledge they have for their own class.The replies here are just proof the majority of the player base is clueless about the game.

[Baconeggcheese]

Please, enlighten everyone.

[Jessicka]

I wouldn't say moving is hard, but more of an RNG inconvenience. Generally speaking when a mechanic forces you to move there is no skillcap involved in order to get your cast off and then move, it's usually *you should be freaking moving already but you're so worried about your dps you're gonna try to finish that ca- OOP you just got 1shot* or you moved like a good raider and suffered a dps loss for it.

Game is about overcoming those inconvenient boss mechanisms to bring it down. Otherwise its Patchwerk or a target dummy. I don't really know how to make it clearer, of course players want those inconviences gone so they can top meters and get epic loots.

Just like snapshots there's a very low skillcap ceiling for it (in moving's case its just knowing how to move in gcds) and people / blizzard want to pretend its something it isn't. Really all it does is create an artificial way to randomly lower raid dps which is probably why they want to get away from movement dps since those mechanics lose half their value if people don't suffer a loss for moving out of them.

Strange then that snapshotting going opens up a bunch of spells to use while moving without worrying about breaking your super powered dots.

Of course they could just make a lot more inatagib movement checks and really tighten enrage timers, but not every class has that toolkit. There's a bigger picture here.

I don't really care either way, just makes rng frustrations during fights more prevalent which is completely ok by me as they're usually healthy for the game despite peoples anger towards them.

Game has to have RNG, it would be far less interesting if you really could play 15s ahead. And if you could, you wouldn't feel a need for KJC anyway.

Wouldn't agree with this at all, just has less passive damage now. Demo is unrewarding not because of difficulty but because even when played flawlessly(which no one does) it is still significantly under performing.

It isn't under performing by any metric other than comparison to Destruction, and to a lesser extent Affliction. Shadow Priests are under performing.

[Baconeggcheese]

Game is about overcoming those inconvenient boss mechanisms to bring it down.

See now this is the exact point I was just arguing against, there is nothing to overcome. You either move and take the dps loss, or you don't move and are liable to die and take a dps loss. If there was some grey area with moving out of a mechanic where you could actively do things besides not stand in fire then yes it'd be overcoming inconvenience, but it doesn't work that way.

You either move, or you don't. There is no middle ground. Which means there's no gameplay to be had there, its just an rng way to artificially lower raid efficiency (if it targets dps less dps, if it targets healers less heals etc). I don't see anything wrong with that, but blizzards in a position where they could lean either way on it with how much movement dps is already in the game. Again though I don't care what they do I'll adapt regardless, I just don't get why people pretend that it creates some extra layer of skill curve or something that it doesn't.

Game has to have RNG, it would be far less interesting if you really could play 15s ahead. And if you could, you wouldn't feel a need for KJC anyway.

Agreed

It isn't under performing by any metric other than comparison to Destruction, and to a lesser extent Affliction. Shadow Priests are under performing.

[Jessicka]

See now this is the exact point I was just arguing against, there is nothing to overcome. You either move and take the dps loss, or you don't move and are liable to die and take a dps loss. If there was some grey area with moving out of a mechanic where you could actively do things besides not stand in fire then yes it'd be overcoming inconvenience, but it doesn't work that way.

You either move, or you don't. There is no middle ground. Which means there's no gameplay to be had there, its just an rng way to artificially lower raid efficiency (if it targets dps less dps, if it targets healers less heals etc). I don't see anything wrong with that, but blizzards in a position where they could lean either way on it with how much movement dps is already in the game. Again though I don't care what they do I'll adapt regardless, I just don't get why people pretend that it creates some extra layer of skill curve or something that it doesn't.

Players don't want to take a DPS loss, be it because moving because STOP DPS DEFENSIVE STANCE or just because fuck you, that's why. Doing DPS means beating the enrage, and a shorter fight meaning less strain on healers and tanks, and any mechanic that prevents DPS is an afront to the role. There could be more defensive stances, damage reflections etc in place of movement; but then the result is the same, DPS or lose DPS. Even when it comes down to something as trivial as interupting, switching to the add - again, it's an interuption to your rotation or worse, resources or globals spent on not DPSing. Damage is the role, and the only thing that really disrupts that is an inconvenience for which the choices are keep DPSing and risk death or debuff that slows/weakens attacks; or stop DPSing.

You're right, there isn't much of a middle ground but that's because the role in its most simple form Damage, can only really be inconvenienced by things that prevent you doing damage. Movement is an important tool for doing that, mitigating movement just reduces further the tools available for encounter designers.

Would it really be that different to asking for some kind of automatic interupt protection, because Thok and Dark Animus are inconvenient in that you have to stop casting and you know that trinket procced? Much more situational, but the same sort of case.

[Baconeggcheese]

yes... which isn't anything disagreeing with the point I was making... which was the overcoming inconvenience thing... which doesn't happen as its not something you overcome, its just something you deal with in an rng fashion.

It really is no different than say... keeping movement dps but making the dmg component of these mechanics more punishing, and or tightening dmg checks on mobs... or anything else people could come up with on a whim to create the same end result. Its all just personal preference on how they want their game to play.

My point was there is no wild and scary big skill cap that comes with going back to turret dps where better players will excel etc etc. Its just going to be the not completely mindless players moving in gcds and not standing in fire with the mindless ones standing in fire more often because they're worried about getting their casts off just like the old days.

[Jessicka]

So your case is that just moving is no more or less skillful than moving in globals? I don't buy it. Plenty of players are still dying in fire trying to get that cast off, they always have and always will.

The only logic I see in your argument is that you feel it is unfair to be punished by losing DPS for expertly avoiding death. I don't think that works if you're also trying to argue that avoiding fire isn't that hard anyway. Especially if the whole point of the fire is to check how little you can lose.

[Baconeggcheese]

So your case is that just moving is no more or less skillful than moving in globals? I don't buy it. Plenty of players are still dying in fire trying to get that cast off, they always have and always will.

The only logic I see in your argument is that you feel it is unfair to be punished by losing DPS for expertly avoiding death. I don't think that works if you're also trying to argue that avoiding fire isn't that hard anyway. Especially if the whole point of the fire is to check how little you can lose.

Never said I feel anything is unfair, like I keep saying I really don't have a preference to whether or not they decide turret is the way to go or moving is the way to go. I've played both over the years and am really fine with doing either.

My point again is just like snapshots people try to inflate it to be this significant skill curve when its a simple black and white. Did a huge buff just proc? You should probably snapshot it... did a huge buff just fall off? and/or a tiny buff proc? You should probably ignore it until those dots fall off.

Did the boss just target you with super-hyper-mega-laser-beam-of-doom? You should probably move and cast something that you can while moving. Did the boss not target you with super-hyper-mega-laser-beam-of-doom? Continue business as usual.

Just like I don't understand why people are freaking out that aff is going to be super boring all of a sudden without snapshots when its already boring as hell now with snapshots since snapshots are FAR from complicated, I don't see the argument for saying bringing back turret dps will add this layer of skill that everyone but hunters already deals with to some degree.

I've played this game since vanilla, there's really not a whole lot of skill going backwards to what we used to do vs being able to cast filler spells while moving.

[Grizelda]

My point was that moving while DPSing takes some skill as well.

I mentioned some games don't have turret casting. Those games are a bit more fast paced. You HAVE to move and doge and weave and duck and hide WHILE doing your rotation because those are the types of mechanics the boss has. It's more aggressive. The boss doesn't just put a big purple mark on the ground that you side step while Conflagrating.

I don't mean moving in GCDs. That's something else and also requires skill.

I realize that WOW wasn't built that way from the ground up but the game is how old? Lot's of things have changed. There could be a place for those types of fights. That type of action.

This is not QQ over the loss of KJC. It can go either way and I will adapt but it seems like Blizz is missing out on an opportunity for cool gameplay. That's what was meant by it opens up possibilities for different types of encounters.

[evertonbelmontt]

Subjective, of course.

But where is the fun in turret casting? Or some of you think that devs don't take fun in consideration as a valid argument?

The goal is that every spec will have something fun to do while moving, and that the best players will excell either way. Exactly like KJC and AV is right now. AV is clearly a dps gain if used right, much more than a simple extra charge as stated. Timing is key.

Also, Turret is only fun when it is worth it (CB style, high risk high reward).
This limits encounters much more than moving while casting (instants, non instants, whatever)

[NuLogic]

I'm fairly positive locks will most likely continue to be the most valuable dps class. Best utility, great mobility and dps. They can't nerf that all!