Poll: Has this design accelerated subscription loss?

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  1. #261
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    And even than, people that were running Karazhan (running being defined as something more than wiping on Attumen's trash) were a minority.
    Sure, for most it was about trying to get a group to do Heroics and maybe clearing a couple of an evening. That's not the demographic of the game anymore though, those playing now are for the most part seemingly those who've been playing a long time and they know how it all works and can confer that very quickly to the few new players.

    The most ironic thing I find about this argument though is that somehow trapping players in T1 for an expansion = more content for them, when it was demonstrated in Classic and TBC that players actually participated in less. That somehow "depriving" players of T1 is worse than excluding them from T2 and T3.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by gamingmuscle View Post
    First, the Customer can be very very wrong. Being the customer doesn't grant anything special.
    Individual customers can be wrong. The "Customers", as a group, cannot be wrong.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  3. #263
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    When your strategy is to make 99% of your content obsolote so everyone gets to see that 1% it's bound to have some blowback on your face.
    No, you're actually talking about excluding them from 67% of the content so they don't miss out on the 33%. Let them in that last 33% and they can still go back and see the other 67%.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    When your strategy is to make 99% of your content obsolote so everyone gets to see that 1% it's bound to have some blowback on your face.
    I agree. The difficulty of various tiers is fine. If one percent of players can complete it in under a month it is completely open and available to be completed by others in a more generous amount of time. Blizz should not rush into new content until at least 30% have completed the current tier.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  5. #265
    It's a though one. When I was in BC doing Karazhan, Sunwell came out, I did Magister's Terrace that was my own new content, I didn't care much about Sunwell itself. There was plenty of content to look forward to, I was doing occasional Gruul and Magtheridon pugs, I was trying to complete Zul'aman. There was still plenty of content ahead of me.

    But for cutting edge people, they had their content, but recruiting new people was a pain in the ***.

    However today, for the casual raider, raiding old tier doesn't mean anything, since current raid tier LFR has no challenge other than hoping the group won't wipe too much, and you get gear that is better than what you had in previous tier.

    If LFR existed in Burning Crusade, I'm not sure I would have pushed myself into raiding as much as I did. Casual players today must hate this game with very easy dungeons and LFR... I had fun nights in heroic BC dungeons, Karazhan, etc.. did Hyjal trash runs, there was plenty of content to do.

    Today.. run LFR for 4h and be done for the week. I find it sad that for the casual guild, doing Heart of Fear normal isn't really an option.
    Last edited by Spotnick; 2014-01-10 at 05:06 PM.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Individual customers can be wrong. The "Customers", as a group, cannot be wrong.
    Eh I dunno. To say that something your customer base universally agree on is right all the time...I can't see that being true.
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  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post

    Today.. run LFR for 4h and be done for the week. I find it sad that for the casual guild, doing Heart of Fear normal isn't really an option.

    We had ahead of the curve. We were ten man and completely casual at the time we did so. You are saying that normal Heart of Fear which is completely irrelevant at this time is not easily puggable complete with 30% nerf and the ability to do it cross server?

    That is not casual that is just bad.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  8. #268
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    We had ahead of the curve. We were ten man and completely casual at the time we did so. You are saying that normal Heart of Fear which is completely irrelevant at this time is not easily puggable complete with 30% nerf and the ability to do it cross server?

    That is not casual that is just bad.
    That's not why its not an option. Its not an option because of expectations, that's why most servers are deserted and a select few are grossly overpopulated. The playerbase is accustomed to getting ahead of the curve, and they want to do it with minimal fuss, which means transfering server and it means going 10 man. If they'll pay to leave a server at the bottom, what chance does a guild at that level have?

  9. #269
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    What could be a WoW-themed app for consoles? An app that let you do pet battles, for example.
    I have serious doubt such a thing could stand on its own legs. A mobile app, perhaps, but a console game, I'm not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    There's no shortage of games that do something else. Many are quite successful. GW2, for example. Or LOL, if you want an example of a game that started after WoW and still captured more players. Who said Blizzard couldn't do arenas - or even a game that is based on WoW and is connected to WoW, similarly to the pet battles app above - that would tick many of the same strings as LOL battles do, eh? Yeah, right, they are trying to do this now. Well, they are slow. That's what I have been saying.
    You're comparing absolutely different things here. LOL is a MOBA, not an MMO. And Blizzard DOES develop ones of its own - heroes of the storm. How successful it will be remains to be seen, but they ARE doing something about it. GW2 is NOT as successful as WoW, despite the fact that it is B2P.
    If you compare what is comparable - i.e. something requiring a monthly sub - there is nothing remotely approaching WoW right now.
    Your "it doesn't work" is similarly false. It does work.

    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    In sum, yes, it's Blizzard. They could, but they didn't. The sub losses are on them and them only. There are always external factors, this doesn't change anything.
    Really, you should open your own VG company, since you appear to be so smart. Why are you still here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    The most ironic thing I find about this argument though is that somehow trapping players in T1 for an expansion = more content for them, when it was demonstrated in Classic and TBC that players actually participated in less. That somehow "depriving" players of T1 is worse than excluding them from T2 and T3.
    Agreed. However, logic is a rare presence in people's minds these days. Unfortunately, I might add.
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  10. #270
    As a person who used to play a lot of RPGs in the past, and being a completist, I would really like that we had to complete the tiers in order, following the storyline.

    Back in Wrath, when I started WoW, i had the RPG mindset and was not used to the MMO mindset. I DID complete every single Dungeon in their own apropriate level, and that was before Dungeon Finder even existed. I completed every single Dungeon Quest back then, a lot of them required multiple runs, and I set groups for all of those. I didn't accept great difference in level from other people. All that so I could apropriately follow the storyline.

    Of course, it was not possible to do the same to Raids. It would be impossible to only accept level-apropriate people, and getting carried by 80's was boring. So I began learning the MMO mindset; people only do what can advance their characters. Specially gear. Level didn't really mean anything, gear is the real progress.

    And this MMO mindset gets hurt if we are forced to run all tiers until we can enter the current content. People who already completed previous tiers don't feel like they are advancing their characters if forced to do them again. It is great for the newbie (me, for example, that got carried in both Naxx and Ulduar when the current content was ToC), but not so good for the rest of the guildies. I didn't understand why I was getting all the gear (I didn't understand the concept of Gearscore, or ilvl, at the time, either). Only latter I realized that gear was really really crappy for them and they were not advancing anything in Naxx or Ulduar; only I was.

    So, as much as my RPG side demands that I complete the storyline in order, the MMO side is stronger, and I think forcind this onto the community would not work nowadays.
    Last edited by Madruga; 2014-01-10 at 05:38 PM.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by gamingmuscle View Post
    First, the Customer can be very very wrong. Being the customer doesn't grant anything special.

    The rest of your opinion I completely disagree with. I feel the content is much better in many aspects.
    If in this game market customers are wrong then nothing can be right. For many times people say WOW losing subscribers because of aging. They just don't understand market at all. I am in charge of a widely played online game in China and I can assure you that Blizzard gets its nose up in the air and that pride won't last long. It's apparent that this game content design is in astray and very lack of actual playable content which stands playing. So, players get bored much faster than ever before.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by billielecter View Post
    If in this game market customers are wrong then nothing can be right. For many times people say WOW losing subscribers because of aging. They just don't understand market at all. I am in charge of a widely played online game in China and I can assure you that Blizzard gets its nose up in the air and that pride won't last long. It's apparent that this game content design is in astray and very lack of actual playable content which stands playing. So, players get bored much faster than ever before.
    I doubt that is true. I suspect sub loss has more to do with declining accounts adds than anything else.

    To say there is less to do now vs Vanilla/BC is utterly ridiculous. I will say MoP doesn't force things like Vanilla/BC did.
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  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    That's not why its not an option. Its not an option because of expectations, that's why most servers are deserted and a select few are grossly overpopulated. The playerbase is accustomed to getting ahead of the curve, and they want to do it with minimal fuss, which means transfering server and it means going 10 man. If they'll pay to leave a server at the bottom, what chance does a guild at that level have?
    Why in the name of god would they go ten man if they want less fuss? 25 is tons easier to accomplish.

    Our ten man progression took months.
    Our 25 progression has nearly reached our ten man in two weeks, and that with VERY under geared and inexperienced fresh recruits just to meet the 25 man fill.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  14. #274
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Why in the name of god would they go ten man if they want less fuss? 25 is tons easier to accomplish.

    Our ten man progression took months.
    Our 25 progression has nearly reached our ten man in two weeks, and that with VERY under geared and inexperienced fresh recruits just to meet the 25 man fill.
    The logistics of getting 10 people together to begin is just easier on most servers. I'm a 25 raider myself, but I've seen how strongly that perception can effect peoples behaviour.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    We had ahead of the curve. We were ten man and completely casual at the time we did so. You are saying that normal Heart of Fear which is completely irrelevant at this time is not easily puggable complete with 30% nerf and the ability to do it cross server?

    That is not casual that is just bad.
    It was an example, I was referring to people only doing LFR, not normal modes. Not saying all those are not good, but many of the people I played with at the beginning didn't really improve over the years, and they were doing Blackwing Descent/Bastion of Twilight when Firelands was current. The LFR changed that because suddenly Dragon Soul's LFR was dropping better loot.

    I'm not convinced for THOSE people, who I was part when I started raiding, LFR was beneficial, because it's not at all the same thing. Other option wouid have been to go back to BC model with totally different instances for 10 man and 25 man raiding.

    Flex on the other hand is probably exactly what they needed.
    Last edited by Spotnick; 2014-01-10 at 06:38 PM.
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  16. #276
    It's one of the main reasons I left.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by gamingmuscle View Post
    I doubt that is true. I suspect sub loss has more to do with declining accounts adds than anything else.

    To say there is less to do now vs Vanilla/BC is utterly ridiculous. I will say MoP doesn't force things like Vanilla/BC did.
    You know players, no matter what kind of, are always enjoying new experience. It doesn't matter how many things they can do in WOW, it matters only whether they can find what they want to do.A real playable content stands playing even you repeat it very often. But MOP doesn't have repetitively playable content to seize the customers. So, people unsubscribe one month after every patch release. One can definitly tell that there is something wrong with actual content which makes people bored so fast.

  18. #278
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Please note that in every single item you brought, Blizzard are in position to influence the situation heavily.

    Other games on the market? Do a better product.
    The game is old? It is you (Blizzard) who are keeping it "old" by sticking to the same old mantras ("raid or die", for one).
    People are attracted to consoles? Do a WoW-themed app for consoles???

    WoW is losing subs due to Blizzard making poor decisions and due to them being SLOW.

    "Oh, mommy, they don't buy my horse rides anymore, they all drive cars now..." And - "That factor was nonexistent back in earlier days." Pathetic.
    WoW-themed app? Make a suggestion.

    Do a better product? I can't. Because I think WoW is one of the best games there is, definetely the biggest. But that's not everyone's opinion.
    On the old part, well for example, I dont care for graphics, but some do.

    Btw, this isnt directed at you, but it's idiotic to say "well people sticked around in vanilla and BC". Sub loss means leavers>joiners, and in MoP there have been less people joining than back in Vanilla-Cata. For the reasons I mentioned.

    Mechanically and content wise, the game is far better than ever.
    Feeling, community, atmosphere-wise-those things may, nay were better earlier.

    I mean, dont't get me wrong, Wrath is my favorite expansion, but I think the game is still good-what it lacks in feeling, it makes up in stuff to do.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    We had ahead of the curve. We were ten man and completely casual at the time we did so. You are saying that normal Heart of Fear which is completely irrelevant at this time is not easily puggable complete with 30% nerf and the ability to do it cross server?

    That is not casual that is just bad.
    It's not an option because the gear you get from it is completely useless and the raid itself is just straight up boring when you outgear it so badly. I really miss the BC model where you had to work your way up through kara > Gruul/Mag > SSC/TK. As a casual raider, I wouldn't mind not seeing the BT/Sunwell raids. I played in BC and while guilds were in Sunwell, I was in SSC/TK enjoying the content because it was still challenging and killing the bosses in there actually felt like an accomplishment. These days, the raids just feel so empty. Once you clear something, it will just be completely obsolete when the new patch comes out. I resubbed 2 weeks ago, when I quit, I had just cleared normal HOF/TOES/whatever the other raid was and killed a few bosses in ToT. In the 2 weeks ive been back, ive already gotten almost all the gear I need from SoO LFR and some flex. In two weeks of playing the game I'm already starting to get bored.

    If I had come back and this was BC, I would be looking forward to clearing ToT, maybe trying some hard modes and working my way to SoO. Now, ToT is just a faceroll and I will never get to experience it when it was challenging and I am stuck with the only raid that is an option for me.

    That is a reason why people like me are unsubbing... Everything just feels empty and there's no sense of accomplishment in raiding anymore when everything is just handed to you.

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