Poll: 4 months out, how many players should've been able to defeat H Garrosh?

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  1. #1181
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfNone View Post
    A little brutal but I can see why u would be frustrated. God knows I agree with you but I feel the philosophy has been the same since day 1. There is just someone now being open/public about a business's desires. If anyone here actually thinks blizzard has best game in mind over subs, then you know what; I got some ocean front property for you.
    If you compare Blizzard to other similarly sized competing PC game design shops/distributors, I think you'll find that Blizzard has more "best game" than any of them.

    There are some small indie shops that are less compromising but Blizzard is simply the best there is in its market space, from a financial as well as a design perspective.

    That doesn't of course mean that Blizzard gives me or you exactly what we want. But it does mean that on the whole Blizzard does very well. So I -- personally -- take that into account when I talk about organized raiding and its prominence in the game. On the one hand, I think it is probably a dead end. On the other hand, Blizzard has made however many billions of dollars with a game that is focused on organized raiding (even if only a fraction of players ever actually do it), so I guess Blizzard isn't entirely stupid in its process.

  2. #1182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post

    Do you consider organized sports to be chores as well?
    most people do

  3. #1183
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Oh, I know there is always a focus on subs profit, but Kotick wants only profit, fuck everything else. Does this seem like a good person to you?
    It seems like what a CEO, as a person with a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders, is required to do.

    We point out a lot that Blizzard is a business, not a charity for gamers. This has implications. Having a CEO with goals like that is one of them.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  4. #1184
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    A statement "X is less dumb than Y" does not itself imply either X or Y is needed.

    But let's address this issue.

    I've been proposing that the presence of more difficult content degrades the game experience of those only using the lesser content. I've pointed out a number of ways this could happen. If that is correct, then it could be the case that chopping off the most difficult content could actually improve the game's retention. Bored high end raiders would be pissed off and leave, but (under this scenario) retention at lower skill levels would be improved.

    The presumption that no one needs to be pissed off is the presumption that the game can be all things to all people. I am skeptical that can be true.
    I don't really agree that it would. I can't imagine the kind of people you are describing is a larger % of the population than the heroic raiding crowd. And if it is...that is upsetting.
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  5. #1185
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It seems like what a CEO, as a person with a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders, is required to do.

    We point out a lot that Blizzard is a business, not a charity for gamers. This has implications. Having a CEO with goals like that is one of them.
    Not making your playerbase happy doesnt help you be a strong business. Nor a long lasting one. Blizzard could easily run another 5-6 years but they would need to drop the dead weight and stop trying to please everybody. A smaller dedicated playerbase is better than a large one dying out in a quarter of the time.

  6. #1186
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Not making your playerbase happy doesnt help you be a strong business.
    That's not what Kotick was saying, of course. He was saying making the developers happy wasn't the point of developing games.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  7. #1187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    min/maxing outside of blood edge world first raiding is hardly necessary and not usually done
    This is a just plain silly and ridiculous assertion.

    Why don't you change your name and avatar and start a thread with that title and see what happens.

  8. #1188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The presumption that no one needs to be pissed off is the presumption that the game can be all things to all people. I am skeptical that can be true.
    The game can be a whole lot. It is still a whole lot too actually, even at decline.

    The thing is, I don't think the current hardcore raiders have anywhere to go. They didn't, last I checked. Why on earth push them out?

    As I also mentioned before, I am sure the non-raider crowd is just as diverse as a raider vs. a non-raider. I think the casual crowd is split into several small percentage crowds which cannot all be satisfied through 1 fix. If you are going to please them(and they are trying!), I think you are up for one hell of a task, which I am not sure they'll ever find a proper end too. Making the game more diverse is pretty much their best option.

  9. #1189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    That's not what Kotick was saying, of course. He was saying making the developers happy wasn't the point of developing games.
    I'm not even sure that was what he was saying.

    Kotick is a former hardcore gamer and now he is a hardcore businessman. He has made mistakes but he has also made a shitload of money for himself and his investors.

    It's not like ATVI is EA.

  10. #1190
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfNone View Post
    A little brutal but I can see why u would be frustrated. God knows I agree with you but I feel the philosophy has been the same since day 1. There is just someone now being open/public about a business's desires. If anyone here actually thinks blizzard has best game in mind over subs, then you know what; I got some ocean front property for you.
    I honestly cannot understand how people don't think blizzard is trying to produce the best game they can. They take their time with everything. They are painfully slow, and not just iterating quickly for cash grabs like the CoD and similar titles. You may not like their choices, and in your mind their products may not be good as they once were. But that is different. Something can be well made, and not well received.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrandir View Post
    My starfall brings all the mobs to the yard.
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  11. #1191
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    This is a just plain silly and ridiculous assertion.

    Why don't you change your name and avatar and start a thread with that title and see what happens.
    Most raid teams dont expect you to change your race and pick up engineering if you arent doing hardcore progression. An extra week killing bosses on farm status will give you a bigger edge than being a troll or orc. If you really think that most guilds expect minmaxing, you are just wrong.

  12. #1192
    Dreadlord Paarthurnax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    A statement "X is less dumb than Y" does not itself imply either X or Y is needed.

    But let's address this issue.

    I've been proposing that the presence of more difficult content degrades the game experience of those only using the lesser content. I've pointed out a number of ways this could happen. If that is correct, then it could be the case that chopping off the most difficult content could actually improve the game's retention. Bored high end raiders would be pissed off and leave, but (under this scenario) retention at lower skill levels would be improved.

    The presumption that no one needs to be pissed off is the presumption that the game can be all things to all people. I am skeptical that can be true.
    How exactly does killing off heroic raiding improve casual players retention?

    "I don’t know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
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  13. #1193
    Quote Originally Posted by Paarthurnax View Post
    How exactly does killing off heroic raiding improve casual players retention?
    They wont feel bad that good players look at them as being worse at the game? I dont know.

  14. #1194
    Quote Originally Posted by Paarthurnax View Post
    How exactly does killing off heroic raiding improve casual players retention?
    Mostly, it enables lesser players to retain the illusion they don't suck, compared to the high skill players.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  15. #1195
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Not making your playerbase happy doesnt help you be a strong business. Nor a long lasting one. Blizzard could easily run another 5-6 years but they would need to drop the dead weight and stop trying to please everybody. A smaller dedicated playerbase is better than a large one dying out in a quarter of the time.
    Losing a quarter of your customers in a year is a pretty strong indicator that your business is not making its customers happy. If losses continue at the present rate WOW is gone in three years. Raiding is the dead weight at the moment, they either have to expend more resources on creating casual friendly content or reallocate resources that are currently spent on making raids.

  16. #1196
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Mostly, it enables lesser players to retain the illusion they don't suck, compared to the high skill players.
    This implies that lesser players even care about that in the first place. As long as lesser players are experiencing consistent, steady progression, why should they care that they suck?

  17. #1197
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    When people are concentrating on their enjoyment at the expense the financial performance of their employer they get fired.

    He is talking about developers that place fun ahead of being productive in their work, this is no different from most work places where employees are expected to earn their money rather than mess around with their friends. Based on the immaturity of your comment about Kotick I guess you are in for a very rude awakening.
    You can assume all you want ass. I am very successful at my job and I have fun doing it. I lead a team of developers and I do it very well. Why is it immature to want people who make games to not be money grubbing whores.

  18. #1198
    WoW would be a better game for more people if they didn't bother with heroic raid content. If they spent that effort on something more people would use they would retain more subs.

    Nothing wrong with having difficult content, but the numbers are too lopsided on this. It's hard for heroic raiders to hear the truth because they usually consider themselves to be more important. It's never fun to hear that other people matter more than you do.
    Last edited by Blur4stuff; 2014-01-13 at 09:05 PM.

  19. #1199
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Mostly, it enables lesser players to retain the illusion they don't suck, compared to the high skill players.
    This relies on the highly questionable idea that every player in sub-heroic content actively wants to participate in that content to begin with.

    Should we get rid of gladiator mounts too? Even fewer people attain those. Maybe MMOC should run stats on how many players have acquired all sorts of rarities in game, there's even more dev hours to be streamlined by removing these things.

  20. #1200
    Dreadlord Paarthurnax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Mostly, it enables lesser players to retain the illusion they don't suck, compared to the high skill players.
    That line of thinking is bullshit, and it makes me think you don't even play this game anymore. Or at least you have some sick love/hate relationship with it still. The game used to be hard, very hard actually and it thrived then. People had to make the choice of either getting better to see/experience the content or missing out, most people rose to the occasion in some degree and the game benefited from an educated player base that didn't expect content to be spoon fed to them. The game also had a grand sense of wonder and a real sense of journey to it, when you had to WORK to see results. People WANTED to be that rogue sitting in Shatt with dual warglaives or those fully t6 decked out bad-asses with fancy mounts/titles.

    Now that players can hit 90 in 2-3 weeks of leveling then spend a few days doing 5 mans/isle stuff and then go kill Garrosh and effectively see all the content there is to see in the game. What motivation do new players have to try harder? get better at the game? attempt to raid normal or heroic content? Is there even anything telling them they are doing things right or wrong?

    The answer is there is none, they maybe give pvp a try, level alts, keep clearing LFR for upgrades, maybe do flex a bit then just unsub and wait for new content once they have had their fill.

    "I don’t know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
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