End game exchange

[pimpeddakota]

Totally agree about necessary difficulty. Don't know if I said it in this thread, but I have said it numerous times on these forums and on official wow forums that the current state of 5 mans is atrocious. I wish that the old style of 5 man content was still around. In BC, if you didn't cc and pulled too many, you died. In order for it to be engaging endgame, it ought to require effort and a progression on ones skill, that is, incentive to improve.

Endgame should not be faceroll, and effortless; it should demand competency or at least make one desire competency.

I've said it in this forum and even on blizzards that I've asked for NPC vengenance. So that as our gear gains the amount of damage we do to the mob increases his damage output to us. Think this would at least slow down how some 5 mans get pulled. Don't get me wrong though. After a time, yes you are sick of doing a certain 5 man and you want to make it fast. But, and I forget what xpac it was, that blizzard basically had all the tier gear on vendors and your 5 mans provided you the points to buy such gear. Sure if you put the LFR tier on vendors like that and make 5 mans heroics actually heroic I wouldn't mind that but I know your "hardcore" people would have issues because they would be forced to do the content for at least the first raid tier to get better gear to assist in raiding. Technically they already have to do that anyways but they will gripe just to be heard.

[Mormolyce]

Heroics can't replace raids, you finish grinding heroics in a couple of weeks max. I don't think it's possible to make 5m content as challenging as 10-25.

[pimpeddakota]

Heroics can't replace raids, you finish grinding heroics in a couple of weeks max. I don't think it's possible to make 5m content as challenging as 10-25.

and I'm sure plenty said that 10-25 man content could never be as challenging as 40 man content...

[Thandorr]

Heroics can't replace raids, you finish grinding heroics in a couple of weeks max. I don't think it's possible to make 5m content as challenging as 10-25.

There was a time (just has pimpeddakota was saying) that 5mans were an integral part of endgame. In BC it was indeed challenging endgame! But let's face it, is LFR really challenging? Come on...

[Mementomori1993]

I wen't ahead and voted for 5 man heroics. My reasoning is because they all have achievements for them where you can earn a cool mount like in raiding. I would hope that most casuals could do that if they really tried. Plus, from the point of view of a fairly casual player (I play quite a bit, but don't raid) I fucking hate LFR. I understand why it is in the game, and I don't think it should go anywhere, but I personally can't stand running it. I think flex is way better and IMO no amount of tweaking will ever make me like it.

[Trollfat]

LFR is awful in every way, in my opinion. It needs to be scrapped completely and replaced by Flex. I feel similarly about Scenarios. If Blizz would use their "resources" to create 3-4 heroic dungeons instead of 12 scenarios, the game would be more engaging. End game PvE progression should be 5 mans -> normal raid (flex) -> heroic raid (normal) -> mythic raid (heroic)

[judgementofantonidas]

There has been copious amounts of discussion on MMO-C about things that are perceived holes in endgame for casual players. My question is: would it be a reasonable exchange and more engaging if LFR did not exist, but there were 5-man heroics released every tier patch to fill the same gear level. Thoughts?

Note: the reason I ask is of those I have talked to and seen on forums, no one is really satisfied how LFR operates (slam 25 people in a raid and watch them fail and QQ, etc.)

did not vote. scewed poll. assumes that LF"R" and end game should ever be used in the same sentence.

[Thandorr]

LFR is awful in every way, in my opinion. It needs to be scrapped completely and replaced by Flex. I feel similarly about Scenarios. If Blizz would use their "resources" to create 3-4 heroic dungeons instead of 12 scenarios, the game would be more engaging. End game PvE progression should be 5 mans -> normal raid (flex) -> heroic raid (normal) -> mythic raid (heroic)

My thoughts exactly.

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did not vote. scewed poll. assumes that LF"R" and end game should ever be used in the same sentence.

However LFR may not be our endgame, it is someone's lol. And I would much rather play 5mans instead of ignoring LFR like I already do.

[Vargur]

As of right now, the 'epicness' and scale of content gets smaller as things get more difficult, which is backwards.
LFR - easy - 25 players
5-man heroics - easy - 5 players
raids - challenge - (mostly) 10 players (flex may help, and some 25 man guilds exist but most are 10)
challenge mode - challenge - 5 players

Vanilla through Cata content got harder pretty much as content got bigger (obvious exception is old content like: lvl80 25Naxx was easier than 10ICC). But with LFR it screws that whole picture up.

A possible is fix to have LFR be 10 player, and also make LFR not available for the current tier. Although I'd be easier to scrap the whole thing anyways.

One of the reasons LFR will remain in 25 man format is due to a shortage of tanks, and healers sometimes. 17 DPS to 1 tank is much better than 6 DPS to 1 tank..

did not vote. scewed poll. assumes that LF"R" and end game should ever be used in the same sentence.

Heh yeah, I thought it's bait at first.. then I realised LFR and dungeons are end-game for some people.