WoD will have 5 new 2 rehash dungeons, BC had 15 new dungeons. You do the math.

[dryankem]

I feel dirty for even remotely acknowledging any merit to a Jaylock thread, but I do have to say the number of leveling dungeons in both Cata and MoP was a bit underwhelming. Both seemed to have something like 2 at the 80/85 mark, 2 more opened at the 83/87 mark, and then the rest once you hit level cap. Got so sick of seeing the same few over and over.

I think a lot of that feeling could have been alleviated if they also had 'leveling' versions of the Scenarios. Which, considering the whole point of the scenarios was to "tell a story beyond what could be done in a simple quest chain", would make perfect sense to have them while leveling through the relevent zones.

I hear you deathgoose. Must admit Jaylock actually has a point. =)

I also don't have a clue why scenarios were end game content. For the most part they should have been a leveling experience and in fact I don't think they would be bad as a leveling tool but they are very lackluster for end game, IMHO.

[Deleted]

thats a design fail on blizzards end though. they shouldnt be just funneling ppl into 3 difficulties of one raid over and over. Challenging 5man content with suitable rewards is always worth doing

i agree, i'd love to be able to have challenging 5 mans which could reward gear i need throughout the majority of the expansion, but im just saying that in wows current position, thats not the case, so making lots of 5 mans for WoD seems pointless when they won't be used much, only for levelling and gearing during the first tier.

[Buildapanda]

A good portion of the BC raids/dungeons rehashed the same looks and assets while providing a few different enemies and changing the layout. Karazhan, Black Temple and Zul'Aman are arguably the only unique instances by how they look (in BC).

Wait, you're seriously comparing BC and saying it used rehashed assets, when you are playing a raid which is basically a copy and paste of current environments... i.e SoO and soon to be Outland v2... This is partly the reason I quit playing call of duty, the reused assets were distracting and annoying. I'm not going to pay for the same thing twice... and guess what WoW is made by the same people who make call of duty, and if it costs less to reuse assets they will... and because of that. I havn't given any money to wow since november.

[Traxex9080]

There's always scenario's, they just need to make the rewards more fitting.

I myself being the "hardcore raider" that I was, ran each scenario once and then never again.

Question? What makes a reward so rewarding? The fact that it's hard to to acquire and not many people would normally have said reward? Or the fact that everyone has it and it isn't very rare at all?

The problem occurs where if they make scenarios more rewarding, they would need to make scenarios harder. If scenarios are harder, then they became the new heroic dungeons. There's simply too many versions of instanced content in the game now to make every system work.

I suppose this isn't very relative to the thread but I'm bored and have nothing better to do but reply to mmo-champion threads

[Deleted]

I think the reason they were able to put out so many dungeons in TBC and Wrath was also due to the fact that they reused some art assets. Auchindoun had 4 wings, Tempest Keep had 3 wings etc., so a lot of dungeons were set in the same place.

[dryankem]

thats a design fail on blizzards end though. they shouldnt be just funneling ppl into 3 difficulties of one raid over and over. Challenging 5man content with suitable rewards is always worth doing

Agreed, I don't love their drive to push everyone into raiding since not everyone wants to raid.

As for the gear it's easy to keep 5-mans and scenarios relevant without over doing it, have them drop a satchel at the end of the run with a chance to drop something from the latest LFR (5% or 10% chance).

[snuzzle]

The only thing that matters is if they are fun or not. If there is enough in WoD to keep me entertained then I don't care how many it launches with, however I do hope they give 5-mans more love in WoD since that's probably my favourite part of the game and MoP for the most part lacked in that department.

You sound like Dudley in Hairy Potter, "but last year I had 37 presents".

Except no matter how fun the dungeon is, after running it for the hundredth time, it starts to get un-fun pretty fast. So yes, more dungeons = content staying fresh longer = more fun. I really loved Stormstout Brewery the first few times I did it... when you have only four dungeons available to you from 85-90 though, they get stale quickly.

[NatePsy]

So we get another expansion with 10 levels to level up like TBC and Wrath, YET, they come out and say there will only be 5 new dungeons and 2 rehashed dungeons.

Sorry but what? I don't believe they announced any rehashed instances from Old World. If they did I must have missed it.

Edit: Just noticed the poster of this thread is Jaylock, why am I not surprised?

[shoc]

All the Hellfire Citadel dungeons shared the same art assets and NPC models, and all the Auchindoun dungeons did as well. Hell, show us 4 pictures of Sethekk Halls, Mana Tombs, Auchenai Crypts and Shadow Labrynth, I doubt many people could tell the difference. Yes, BC had a ton of dungeons but in this case, quality really is better than quantity. They are also going to release ~3 dungeons per content patch, much like the ICC Heroics and Dragon Soul Heroics. Not to mention there are more boss mechanics in a single MoP dungeon boss then there were in an entire BC dungeon.

[Deleted]

Sorry but what? I don't believe they announced any rehashed instances from Old World. If they did I must have missed it.

Edit: Just noticed the poster of this thread is Jaylock, why am I not surprised?

i think they are rehashing upper and lower blackrock spire. not sure though, haven't read much about this expansion

[Ielenia]

That means 15 dungeons with unique bosses, loot for each boss, and varied environments.

Wrong. Hellfire Ramparts, Blood Furnace and Shattered Halls all had the same environment. Shettek Halls, Auchenai Cryps, Shadow Labyrinth and Mana Tombs had the same environment. The Underbog, Slave Pens and Steamvauls had the same environment. The Mechanar, Botanica and Arcatraz had the same environment. Black Morass and Old Hillsbrad used environment already present in WoW Classic, changing them only a slight bit.

I would think the casual playerbase would also be upset because that just means there is a lack of things to do for them aside from LFR (which even they dont feel is real content).

Irrelevant. The moment players have enough item level to start doing LFR, they abandon dungeons completely, unless they're trying for achievements or transmog items.

WoD looks beautiful. I think they really shot for the stars on this expansion, I just wish they would have been more creative and focused on more 5 man content at release. I think we will get more 5 man dungeons over the course of the expansion, but it feels lame compared to 15 brand new dungeons from the get go of TBC.

Thoughts?

Focusing on 5-man content has been proven to not be effective as people do less and less dungeons the higher their item level is. Scenarios are a much better option for they're much faster than dungeons, with the added bonus of not having to sit for hours waiting for a tank to queue in.

[Deleted]

Agreed, I don't love their drive to push everyone into raiding since not everyone wants to raid.

As for the gear it's easy to keep 5-mans and scenarios relevant without over doing it, have them drop a satchel at the end of the run with a chance to drop something from the latest LFR (5% or 10% chance).

The biggest problem is your forced into lfr to do flex to do normal because they havnt put any meaningful gear progression into the game.

They then try to compensate for this with timeless isle epics... SOO lfr full of dps who cant break 50k due to terrible gear with the right ilvl to enter

[Halicia]

Wrong. Hellfire Ramparts, Blood Furnace and Shattered Halls all had the same environment.

to be fair, i'm 100% cool with them re-using environments for dungeon families like that. its not like the floorplans and bosses were exact copies anyways.

level distribution of MoP dungeons sucked. Cata dungeons either sucked, were poorly rehashed, or would have made AWESOME raids. (but were poorly suited as dungeons).

[Throne]

Because everyone always seems confused by this...

The 10 levels in WoD are equal to, in terms of content, the 5 levels in either Cata and MoP. They just took twice as long in Cata and MoP as in the other x-pacs

[Edlarel]

I'm going to make a separate topic for this, but how about if they included flexing Scenarios up to 5 and Dungeons down to 3 (with the advent that a dungeon still requires a tank and a healer)? Would that satisfy the feeling that there are only 7 dungeons on release?

[Raintola]

They've been slowly decreasing the amount of dungeons we get in each expansion. Wrath had fewer than TBC (12 at release, with 4 added later on), Cata had fewer than Wrath (9 at release with 5 added later), and MOP had fewer still with just 8 new dungeons, three of which were rehashes. Dungeons just aren't considered important content anymore, sadly; it's something people just plow through for gearing for raids, maybe done once or twice while levelling to do the quests, but it's not alternate content to raiding anymore so it's falling to the wayside. Sad really, as dungeons are my favorite part of the game.

So no, it's not a lack of content overall, it's just that dungeons seem to be forcibly being made obsolete.


That's mainly because we didn't get any new ones, and the ones we had were always a roflstomp even at level. Had we gotten new dungeons with new gear as a catch-up instead of Timeless Isle, people would run them. If they made dungeons that actually made you pay attention (think Flex raid difficulty) people who like small groups would run them instead of raid. But since raiding is so accessible now, the playerbase as a whole seems to think having to create five mans for non raiders is moot, that five-mans are now solely for capping valor and only for gearing at the start of an expansion.

Yeah, they weren't necessary after a point. I don't understand why people want so much time spent on content that isn't useful for more than like, a month.

[grexly75]

Dungeons are means to an end, and very short-lived at that. After 5.2 I rarely saw anyone running heroics.

Pretty much this..

I now only do one or two dungeons a day to help cap my VP's. Since once you are kitted out with whatever tier of raid gear is current at the time and what mode of raid it be from be it LFR, Flex, Normal or Heroic there is no other purpose for them other than VP capping..

The only time they do help is during the early leveling / gearing process.. And more interesting with MoP they did not go the route of the heroic dungeons from TBC, WoTLK, Cata with the epic level loot from them.. Though MoP heroic 5 mans did have one epic level item the drop rate for it was so low you would be lucky to see it..

But with the advent of scenarios VP capping is much faster and easier.

[DeadmanWalking]

Here is the dirty fact of the 5 man dungeons, there has to be a boss that will drop gear for every single spec out there, the new loot drop process will eliminate the need for 30-40 bosses.

What do I mean? In MoP there had to be a boss that would drop every single specs gear, from Int to Strength gear, from cloth to plate gear, from crit gear to mastery gear. Every spec has a BiS that would gear them up for the next step in raiding.

Whats the new loot drop system in Wod? The boss will drop an armor type (cloth, leather, mail and plate) and the secondary stats will be randomized. That removes healing plate, tanking plate and dps plate and just requires that a boss drops plate. When you switch your spec the plate will switch its main stats to what your spec requires. When the boss drops plate the secondary stats will be randomized which will make doing the boss over and over again worthwhile as every time that plate drops for you it *might* be BiS secondary stats for you.

This new system eliminates the need for a boss to drop Crit strength plate, a boss to drop haste strength plate, a boss to drop dodge strength plate, a boss to drop haste Int plate. It requires that a boss drops a plate piece for every armor slot and the rest takes care of itself with spec changing stats or random secondary stats. (tertiary too.)

Thus no need for 40-50 5 man dungeon bosses, instead you can cover all the gear in 20-30 bosses. Sorry but thats what it all comes down to. The same people complaining that there won’t be enough dungeons are the same people complaining that they are bored and want WoD asap. The less they work on dungeons the faster you get WoD.

The good news is that unlike MoP they have recently promised that they will continue to add in more 5 man dungeons as the next expansion rolls forward.

[Deleted]

oh and cause noone mentioned it nice that you didnt count the scenarios: tbc had zero and start and wod will have who many? right! way more!
stop playing so u dont have to open a winethread every day...

[docterfreeze]

Well dungeons are one of my favorite things so that blows