This is why 10 man loot table is total crap

[PosPosPos]

You'd think 25 man gears up to full BIS much faster but you'd be wrong.
For example in Method, we still need the Immersus trinkets(heroic version) for mains. I have 3 alts that need that trinket. If that trinket would drop every week from now until the next expansion it would still never get disenchanted. Most of the trinkets currently on people are from coins(and due to Warforged version many of them will still be on Immersus or coin each week also), and I don't think you can blame 25 mans for coining.

In theory since 6 items drop in 25 man you're more likely to see a rare item drop, but in practice there's a lot of people that will need that item even if it drops and there will be a lot of people needing that item after 1 guy gets it.

Another funny thing. We had 8 25 man raids for Immersus in the first week of normal to get that trinket. It dropped ONCE.

Better it having dropped than not dropped at all. That's the ongoing problem 10 mans have - 25 man loot system means at least 1 will eventually drop, 10 man loot means no trinket may drop regardless of how many weeks and lockouts you spend on the boss.

10 mans have 1/3 the chance compared to 25 mans to obtain a specific item every week.

1 loot per 5 man versus 1 loot per 4.17 man in 25.

Math doesn't lie.

[Hoofey]

Always fun to see the 25 man raiders tell the story about how their 1-2 warriors, or that 1 ranged guy didnt get his trinket yet.
In 10 man, half the raid has 1-2 items they have never seen drop.


A hunter friend of mine who raids 25 stopped playing 2 months ago, having about the same progress as me. (10/14 hc)

He's still 2-3 ilvls higher than me.

[Nelle]

Who cares, 10man is DEAD

[Durandro]

Who cares, 10man is DEAD

So is 25 man. Your point?

[Nelle]

So is 25 man. Your point?

Yet you don't see 25man whine about loot.

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I find it cute how people whine about not getting loot in a game that is based 99% on the gamble addiction in the human race, the games burnout would be even faster if you got all your loot within 10 resets, and to me that is how it sounds like you want the game to be. But when Blizzard only release a new tier every year (~50+ weeks) they can't feed you loot at that fast rate and still have you stick to the subscription. Live with it or find another game.

The loot drop rate is all about keeping people playing long enough to not cancel sub between tiers. And they make this even more obvious with the system WoD will bring. Massive low chance of getting BiS gear.

[Deleted]

I find it cute how people whine about not getting loot in a game that is based 99% on the gamble addiction in the human race, the games burnout would be even faster if you got all your loot within 10 resets, and to me that is how it sounds like you want the game to be. But when Blizzard only release a new tier every year (~50+ weeks) they can't feed you loot at that fast rate and still have you stick to the subscription. Live with it or find another game.

The loot drop rate is all about keeping people playing long enough to not cancel sub between tiers. And they make this even more obvious with the system WoD will bring. Massive low chance of getting BiS gear.

Indeed you are right! If you could have all the gear in a couple of weeks, what else should you do if not changing game?
That's the thing I always say to myself when I dont get what I want.

[Deleted]

No, it isn't. Its just an rng issue because no loot is guaranteed. 25m has 2.5x as many people... how is 1 of yours worth 3-4 of ours? Thats just stupid.

Sure its just as likely we get a specific piece in 1 kill as you do in 3... and we have 2.5x more people who need it too. Btw it is absolutely possible to get the same piece of loot to drop 3x on one kill on 25m. My 25m hasn't seen Iron Jug's mace drop yet and I'm sure theres probably something else too. RNG is just that, RNG.

2.5 times the people and 3 times the loot.

Fairly easy to see how 25 mans gear up faster

[Dracodraco]

2.5 times the people and 3 times the loot.

Fairly easy to see how 25 mans gear up faster

Except 25 man's usually have 3 times the people because of the fact that 2.5 times the people = 2.5 times higher chance that someone will be absent. How many people does your guild have in your 10 man raid team? 11? 12? *3 = 33-36. Yea, seems pretty fair.

[Deleted]

The problem with 10 man loot is not the amount of items raid is getting. It's very okay pace of gearing up if your guild gets 2 items per boss.
The problem comes with the FUCKING RNG. The actual chance to SEE the one item you need. With 23 items on a loot table this chance is less than 10 percent. One of the worst possible examples - my "Mystically Epic" achievement is dated JANUARY 29, 2013. A four fucking months after Tier14 was opened, and a mere month before tot release. And don't you dare saying that I didn't tried. I did my best, progressed well into heroics, burned the coins each week, NOPE you raid heroics with blue weapon, thank you. This wasn't surprising - LEI SHI (die in a fire you scum) has 17 regular items and 1 token. Only 1 item drops (aside from 1 tier). Which means about 6% chance to see your fucking weapon. I farmed Ji'kun mount shorter than my first epic weapon in MOP. Sure i paid 200k gold cos I didn't won the roll, but you see the analogy. It's a fucking mount, rare one too. Regular progression gear is NOT RARE VANITY LOOT. It becomes obsolete quickly.

Now this rant got a bit hot on swearing. Take a look at 25-man. Six items drop, which greatly boosts the chance of seeing the item you need. To about 30% if theres 20 items on loot table. Token bosses are 3+3. Sure, there are more people. You wait for your turn. But eventually you get the loot, warforged even. In ten man, you can't expect a shit. Raiding heroics, having TOT trinkets. No warforged gear. Coining and dropping cloaks. 25-mans get this also. But inspect any solid raider from a 25 man guild with similar progress to you. See the difference? They see the whole loot table 4 times over. 10-mans don't see this one fucking trinket even once over whole patch.

End of story. Good thing this shit is going to die. Die and never come back. Kill it with fire, then impale with silver spike. 20 man mythic ftw.

[Deleted]

Except 25 man's usually have 3 times the people because of the fact that 2.5 times the people = 2.5 times higher chance that someone will be absent. How many people does your guild have in your 10 man raid team? 11? 12? *3 = 33-36. Yea, seems pretty fair.

What? Percentage doesn't change even if you add more people.

[-Raer-]

I'll just leave this here...

[Deleted]

So you have a dozen ppl sitting out every raid? that's more on you than the loot system.
I can say I have a 20 men roster for 10man raid, and then I'll conclude that 10man is 5 times worse than 25man at gearing just from anecdotal evidence. See what I did here? It's pointless to draw conclusions from a sample size of one.

[Deleted]

I'd be willing to bet that the only reason 25 mans are "ahead" of similiar 10 mans, are WF/TF gear differences.

It's not only WF/TF differences but its the main contributor, the other is that you rarely waste gear in 25man, where in 10man its not unusual to DE hc wf gear simply cuz noone can use it.

Looking purely at ilvl, didnt method have like 4 ilvls more then paragons when they both had garrosh left ? Should answer it all, no ?

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Except 25 man's usually have 3 times the people because of the fact that 2.5 times the people = 2.5 times higher chance that someone will be absent. How many people does your guild have in your 10 man raid team? 11? 12? *3 = 33-36. Yea, seems pretty fair.

Most serious 10man i've been in have a stable 14-16 man rooster. Not many serious 10man runs 11 and 12 ppl, it just isnt viable...
And thats ignoring that you keep a 10 man bench, more on you then anything else.

[Potsu]

Damn 14 - 16 people roster for a 10 man is insane. Most we've ever had during progression was 13 and that was still probably 1 too many.

Also, the issue about gearing is for the raid size not individual outlier examples people. Looking purely at the numbers its extremely obvious that 25m gears significantly faster than 10m. Between the # of loot drops and the fraction of that loot that is actually useful combined with the warforged rates 10m can never keep up except through exceptionally rare RNG.

[cFortyfive]

So you have a dozen ppl sitting out every raid? that's more on you than the loot system.

Having 35 raiders is a healthy 25 man roster for every raid that has members that can't guarantee 100% attendance which is usually reserved for ~top10 guilds.

[xiic]

Pretty sure that isn't what is being said. What is being said is RNG is RNG. Get over it. It's been this way forever.

You have at least two posts in the front page about how "bad" your luck is with RNG in 25 man. Obviously RNG is RNG, the RNG is just a whole lot better in 25 man. I can't wait to farm 25 for the rest of this xpac.

[Deleted]

Having 35 raiders is a healthy 25 man roster for every raid that has members that can't guarantee 100% attendance which is usually reserved for ~top10 guilds.

By that reasoning a healthy 10man raid will have 13-15 members, not just 12. The numbers would be huge for 25man if you do the math.

[Deleted]

Also, if you've got issues getting "half the loot table" to drop in 10 mans, you build a fucking retarded setup, or you're encountering the exact same issues a 25 man raid will encounter - loot saturation. Let's take an example -
In MSV, our first feng heroic kill dropped 3x tank bracers (3x copies of the same item can drop in 25 man). We had a bear and a warrior tank. 2 of those bracers were completly wasted (let's not kid ourselves and think offspecs between the two sizes really means anything). In 10 man, that couldn't have happened, because it can't drop the same item twice. No matter what setup we'd chosen, the best case scenario would be 1 wasted bracer (2x plate tanks).

On non tier bosses, it can happen and i've seen it personally more then once, its extremely rare tho. And when ticketed to GM they claim "working as intended".

[Vishiz]

kind of pointless to complain about differences in loot between 25 and 10 man anymore. Soon they'll only have to balance drops for 1 difficulty and nothing else will matter. No sense losing sleep over it anymore.

[Dracodraco]

What? Percentage doesn't change even if you add more people.

...What? Do you know how percentages work <.<?
A stable 10 man has 2, maybe 3 people on the bench. A stable 25 man has about 10 people on the bench because there's a far bigger chance of someone having to be absent in a 25 man than there is in a 10 man, not to mention the fact that setups are far more important in 25 than 10, meaning you NEED that many people.
12/2 (12 people, 2 pieces of loot)= 1 piece per 6 people.
36/6 (36 people, 6 pieces of loot)= 1 piece per 6 people.
That's about as simple as I can put it.

So you have a dozen ppl sitting out every raid? that's more on you than the loot system.
I can say I have a 20 men roster for 10man raid, and then I'll conclude that 10man is 5 times worse than 25man at gearing just from anecdotal evidence. See what I did here? It's pointless to draw conclusions from a sample size of one.

Haha. No. Any raid you have to expect 3-4 people being suddenly absent (IRL emergencies, plans, whatever can make you absent really), and in 25 man, the setups are far more important for specific bosses than they are for 10 man (a great example would be Lei Shen from last tier - any 25 man HAD to get 2x dks for the fight, but it could be done with any setup in 10 man). A 35 man roster for 25 man is simply something that's neccessary - and keeping the benched people happy by switching people in and out etc... Have you never wondered why one of the biggest complaints from guild leaders about 25 mans is the extra amount of work that has to be done?
Either way, you can put out as much anecdotal evidence as you want - in the end, I really couldn't care less. I lead a healthy top 50 guild, and I have tons of friends in both raid sizes. I know my numbers are pretty accurate, on average (there's outliers in both sizes and on both ends of the spectrum).

It's not only WF/TF differences but its the main contributor, the other is that you rarely waste gear in 25man, where in 10man its not unusual to DE hc wf gear simply cuz noone can use it.

Looking purely at ilvl, didnt method have like 4 ilvls more then paragons when they both had garrosh left ? Should answer it all, no ?

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Most serious 10man i've been in have a stable 14-16 man rooster. Not many serious 10man runs 11 and 12 ppl, it just isnt viable...
And thats ignoring that you keep a 10 man bench, more on you then anything else.

I'd love the names of those 10 mans. I've got contacts in multiple top 50 10 mans from the EU side, and they've had a maximum of 13 people during progress.
As for the Ilvl difference,
Recorded Guild Item Level: 566.65 (25-man) <-- Method.

Recorded Guild Item Level: 565.66 (10-man) <--- Paragon.


It's pretty close - but that aside, Method did far more for their item level advantage than Paragon did. I mean, 8x 25 man runs the first week as Aladya claimed previously - if I recall correct, Paragon did 3 runs, but that could be wrong (if anyone has the correct number, feel free to say so).
I'm also not aware if Paragon did the same as Method did during heroic modes - Method would kill a boss on heroic, then take the mains that were left out for the boss kill, and kill it again on normal to maximize loot. As Paragon kept a 10 (11?) man roster, that would neither have been productive nor worth it, I guess - which means that you effectively have so many more raids worth of loot for Method because of the way they played.

By that reasoning a healthy 10man raid will have 13-15 members, not just 12. The numbers would be huge for 25man if you do the math.

No, because you assume
1:
That bosses are as setup-dependant in 10 man as they are in 25 - they're not, so you're going to need a larger bench in 25 purely due to setup issues (Thok heroic was 8 healed during progress, siegecrafter was 4 healed, in 25 man. In 10 man, that was 3/2 healers. Usually you have a designated hybrid to switch between dps/heal for 10 man heroic guilds to keep the team even tighter, but I'll concede that this could be a bench spot as the same COULD be done for 25. So, just because of healing setups, 25 man had to have 3 more people on the bench to get through the tier).
2:
That the amount of absenses and attendance issues will be the same between 10 and 25. If you have one person absent in a 10 man from a raid, that's one person you need on the bench - but in 25 man, you're just as likely to have 2.5 (3) players absent as a 10 man is to have one player absent. It's basic math. You need more people on the bench to be able to fill in for absent people, because there's more people to be absent.

On non tier bosses, it can happen and i've seen it personally more then once, its extremely rare tho. And when ticketed to GM they claim "working as intended".

Really? Any evidence of it anywhere ? I've seen 3x items drop from the same boss multiple times this tier alone, but I've been clearing 10 man norm / heroic on my alts since T11 basicly every single week, oftenly on multiple alts per week, and I have *never* seen a double drop of anything. It could just be shitty luck never having seen it, I guess. Well, apart from getting 2x firestones (one instead of loot, one as an "extra") once in firelands, I guess...