Alterac Valley Changes (Finally!)

[Bakis]

Map layout is totally wrong as well as positioning of towers/guards.
Modifying abilities and hp doesnt do shit to even out AV from being heavily favorable towards alliance

[Trubo]

As a horde, AV and ISLE are on my blacklist. No fun when Alliance clearly have the advantage allready from start.

And what advantage(s) are those? Most of the complaints I've seen in this thread are due to people blindly trying to zerg and qqing when it doesn't work. The only legitimate complaint I can see is the bridge to the Alliance base only because you can die to fall damage there unlike at the Horde base.

Edit: Does anyone have the win/loss ratios for both factions before the Blacklist feature? I'm curious to see how they were then.

Edit 2: Here we go from a link provided in the most recent battleground win thread. Here's the image of win percentages back in 2011.



Keep in mind there is some drastic vertical exaggeration in this chart. The difference between Horde and Alliance AV wins is 8% in favor of Alliance. Seems balanced to me. What surprises me is that IoC was extremely Horde favored so I'd like to know what all happened between 2011 and 2012 that could have possibly caused such a shift for Horde losses in these two bgs besides the Blacklist feature and the fact that AV and IoC have the largest time investment per bg.

[n0ideabr0]

Well according to blizzard statistics that have been posted recently that Ally have 80% win ratio on AV,it just seems it will be even worse for Horde now
I think that AV really needs to be redesigned with all those USELESS Npcs and what not , maybe make it even smaller but more fun.

[Bakis]

And what advantage(s) are those? Most of the complaints I've seen in this thread are due to people blindly trying to zerg and qqing when it doesn't work. The only legitimate complaint I can see is the bridge to the Alliance base only because you can die to fall damage there unlike at the Horde base.

It is not only about zerg, starting in the alliance base cut the distance to get into battle by alot also not sure if they changed it but previously you could avoid every base tower and its archers as alliance while a clothie crossing the bridge and into the alliance base would be at 50% hp or less before getting in cover.

Also horde towers offer no protection since you are standing in the open on decking. Alliance bunkers are 10 times better than horde towers since you dodge behind cover whenever you like

[n0ideabr0]

And what advantage(s) are those? Most of the complaints I've seen in this thread are due to people blindly trying to zerg and qqing when it doesn't work. The only legitimate complaint I can see is the bridge to the Alliance base only because you can die to fall damage there unlike at the Horde base.

Edit: Does anyone have the win/loss ratios for both factions before the Blacklist feature? I'm curious to see how they were then.

Edit 2: Here we go from a link provided in the most recent battleground win thread. Here's the image of win percentages back in 2011.



Keep in mind there is some drastic vertical exaggeration in this chart. The difference between Horde and Alliance AV wins is 8% in favor of Alliance. Seems balanced to me. What surprises me is that IoC was extremely Horde favored so I'd like to know what all happened between 2011 and 2012 that could have possible caused such a shift for Horde losses in these two bgs besides the Blacklist feature.

There is much difference mate,bunker with miniboss faced right to enter for ally , not like horde for ballinda,Bunkers ARE MUCH harder to protect then shity towers that have that clutch little entrence that you just AoE and deffend,its just like that ally really does dominate AV nothing strange on that,whenever i see AV weekend or BG holiday i just log ally alt and collect lvls lol,and you can see it yourself just go to your statistic on ally characther.

[Trubo]

It is not only about zerg, starting in the alliance base cut the distance to get into battle by alot also not sure if they changed it but previously you could avoid every base tower and its archers as alliance while a clothie crossing the bridge and into the alliance base would be at 50% hp or less before getting in cover.

Why are you charging into a base as a clothie with no one else to assist you? I may be remembering incorrectly but the npc guards act like normal mobs in that they only attack one target at a time.

Also horde towers offer no protection since you are standing in the open on decking. Alliance bunkers are 10 times better than horde towers since you dodge behind cover whenever you like

While not as apparent as the bunker you can still use LoS to your advantage on the tower: if you're being attacked from the ground you can just move closer to the hut at the top to get out of range and if there's someone up on the tower you can kite them around or even run into the hut to smack them with a stun, run out and quickly heal.

There is much difference mate,bunker with miniboss faced right to enter for ally , not like horde for ballinda,Bunkers ARE MUCH harder to protect then shity towers that have that clutch little entrence that you just AoE and deffend,its just like that ally really does dominate AV nothing strange on that,whenever i see AV weekend or BG holiday i just log ally alt and collect lvls lol,and you can see it yourself just go to your statistic on ally characther.

It's been a while since I ran AV as Horde but I don't remember having to run a maze to get to the minibosses. I find it strange that you say towers become more favorable to capturing Alliance rather than defending Horde considering you're free to do AoE and such on the flag to prevent people from capping it as well, likewise with bunkers.

As for my AV statistics they wouldn't be of much help; I was Horde up until Firelands, switched to Alliance for raiding and haven't really pvped since.

But I think the point of my last post was missed: If AV was severely at a disadvantage for Horde before the Blacklisting feature became available why is it that it is on par with the win difference between WSG and AB (both put Horde ahead of Alliance)? Also, why did Horde go from being the top dogs in IoC to being trampled by Alliance?

[Bakis]

Why are you charging into a base as a clothie with no one else to assist you? I may be remembering incorrectly but the npc guards act like normal mobs in that they only attack one target at a time.

Whats your point? That having guards firing on attackers vs not firing is equal?

While not as apparent as the bunker you can still use LoS to your advantage on the tower: if you're being attacked from the ground you can just move closer to the hut at the top to get out of range and if there's someone up on the tower you can kite them around or even run into the hut to smack them with a stun, run out and quickly heal.

Same here what is your point? To get into cover you either have to jump down or start running still totally visable around the outside of the tower. Standing in a bunker - stand next to the pillar and move 1m to get into cover.
You can AoE horde towers since there is no roof on the decking, you cant AoE the alliance bunkers.

I will grant you these are minor things but add them all up together with the map layout it becomes less minor. Alliance have a huge advantage when attacking Horde towers and since towers are a pretty big deal in AV...

Overall though I could care less, Alliance got an advantage on some bg's and Horde on others. Most of all I wish AV (or a new bg in WoD) became epic battles lasting for at least 1,5h but giving BLZ inability to fight botting I doubt it will happen.

[Trubo]

Whats your point? That having guards firing on attackers vs not firing is equal?

Sorry, that wasn't my point. If the Alliance guards aren't firing then that's something I agree Blizzard should have fixed long ago.

Same here what is your point? To get into cover you either have to jump down or start running still totally visable around the outside of the tower. Standing in a bunker - stand next to the pillar and move 1m to get into cover.
You can AoE horde towers since there is no roof on the decking, you cant AoE the alliance bunkers.

Would you mind clarifying this part? I'm trying to figure out if you mean you can cast AoE on the towers from the ground, you can't cast AoE inside a bunker, or something else. As for the bunker thing sure you can hide from people outside but you're basically saying "hey everyone, I'm not applying pressure now so come inside" where it's significantly harder to protect yourself as a defender; At least the tower provides some interesting LoS blocks no matter where in the tower you are.

I will grant you these are minor things but add them all up together with the map layout it becomes less minor. Alliance have a huge advantage when attacking Horde towers and since towers are a pretty big deal in AV...

And that I still attribute more to the prevalent but flawed idea that zerg = only way to win AV nowadays than to any minor differences between buildings.

[Bakis]

Would you mind clarifying this part? I'm trying to figure out if you mean you can cast AoE on the towers from the ground, you can't cast AoE inside a bunker, or something else. As for the bunker thing sure you can hide from people outside but you're basically saying "hey everyone, I'm not applying pressure now so come inside" where it's significantly harder to protect yourself as a defender; At least the tower provides some interesting LoS blocks no matter where in the tower you are.

Since horde tower defense has to be with horde being outside on the wooden platform alliance can AoE.
Alliance can def from inside the bunker out into the open with roof over the head and therefore they are free from most of the AoE.
Once inside a bunker the space is much bigger so in there they are also much less prone to get AoE CC unlike inside a Horde tower.

[Verain]

I want Blizzard to take out blacklisting or allow ally to blacklist all the horde dom BGs. It's unfair that horde are able to blacklist the only two ally ones (and it shot the ally win percent up when blacklisting went in to effect).

[Nuditea]

I think the statistics just show that Alliance can only win if they bum rush the enemy with 40-players, that, in addition to the Horde win statistics also reveal that Horde players are better. The fact that there are more Alliance than Horde in the game in general as well, also adds to the belief that Alliance players just suck.

[Firebert]

I think the statistics just show that Alliance can only win if they bum rush the enemy with 40-players, that, in addition to the Horde win statistics also reveal that Horde players are better.

The Horde are better at non-40-man PvP BGs, the Alliance are better at 40-man PvP BGs. This doesn't make the Horde better. The Horde can only win if they make the game as close to an arena match as possible.

The fact that there are more Alliance than Horde in the game in general as well, also adds to the belief that Alliance players just suck.

Er, there's queues for the Horde for PvP, so actually there's more Horde than Alliance in PvP.

[Mormolyce]

That's great now can they fix the Horde huts?

/ancient complaint

I wish they'd make the NPCs scale with the current average ILVL, they always have to do this manually late in an expansion.

[Nuditea]

The Horde are better at non-40-man PvP BGs, the Alliance are better at 40-man PvP BGs. This doesn't make the Horde better. The Horde can only win if they make the game as close to an arena match as possible.


Er, there's queues for the Horde for PvP, so actually there's more Horde than Alliance in PvP.

Yes, but that doesn't skew the statistics, it just means Horde's queues are bloated and that it takes longer to enter a battleground, nothing more. It doesn't change what happens inside. Alliance still require 40 players to acquire a win, while the Horde win every other battleground. Since there are more non-40-man battlegrounds than there are 40-man battlegrounds, the Horde wins by default, thus it does make Horde the better PvP faction since battlegrounds are classed as PvP.

You can't exactly deny it, otherwise you'd be denying the fact that normal raids (normal raids = battlegrounds) are PvE.

I've had my fair share of Alliance experience as well, and hell, I even had my main as Alliance so I do know what I'm talking about.

[Firebert]

Since there are more non-40-man battlegrounds than there are 40-man battlegrounds, the Horde wins by default, thus it does make Horde the better PvP faction since battlegrounds are classed as PvP.

Er, then seeing as there are 40-man BGs, the Alliance and Horde players themselves win an equal amount; the Alliance do it in bulk, and the Horde do it in small groups more consistently.

If Horde were the better PvP faction they'd have a higher win rate in all BGs, not all but two.

- - - Updated - - -

You can't exactly deny it, otherwise you'd be denying the fact that normal raids (normal raids = battlegrounds) are PvE.

Yeah, that's not what I'm saying if I deny it at all. Don't put words in other people's mouths to try to better your argument.

[Deleted]

Also, the alliance have a huge advantage with where they rez in their base to defend that last two flags compared to horde.

That's because there is always some dumb idiot that caps stoneheart graveyard, even if people tell in chat not to cap it, they so dumb they cant think for themself that if they cap it alliance is going to rez at their base.

Pro tip for the nabs: DON'T CAP SH GY!

[ringpriest]

Er, then seeing as there are 40-man BGs, the Alliance and Horde players themselves win an equal amount; the Alliance do it in bulk, and the Horde do it in small groups more consistently.

If Horde were the better PvP faction they'd have a higher win rate in all BGs, not all but two.

Unless, as many people claim, those BGs are tilted to favor alliance. (Personally, while I think there are some disparaties in IoC and AV, they're nothing that couldn't easily be overcome with good gameplay. But horde have been in a bad positive feedback cycle in both BGs for years, and the ability to blacklist them made it even worse.

[Firebert]

Pro tip for the nabs: DON'T CAP SH GY!

If we're not supposed to cap it, why is it cappable?

[Raiju]

If Horde were the better PvP faction they'd have a higher win rate in all BGs, not all but two.

Most of the thread has been about whether AV favours alliance or not - if it does then that is the reason for alliances higher winrate there.

I'm fairly convinced that it's alliance favoured. As a more often than not horde player I don't care. I don't see an issue with some horde favoured bg's, some alliance favoured bg's, and some neutral. We have blacklist for a reason.

I don't think silvershard needed changing - but this is also ignoring the ridiculous legendary quest.

[nightfalls]

If we're not supposed to cap it, why is it cappable?

Because alternative strats call for alternative methods. If what is seen as the best strat given both sides' play (not just one, by the way) is not capping a GY, then that is fine. It doesn't mean the GY should never be cappable.