Rogue Class Concept - WoD

[Verain]

Man, your stuff always sounds like it's translated from High Atlantean.

You sound like timecube guy. Nature's harmonious roguecube?


There is a great deal of class hatred aimed at rogues, but the devs are aware of that to at least some degree. I will agree that this is a legit level of class hatred based on not liking being jumped and killed by invisible ninjas (but somehow being ok with all the other ludicrous things that befall your character in pvp).


Your very hard to understand assumptions regarding combo points versus energy are, frankly, nonsense. The only downside to cheap builders is that you can hit a global cap. The only downside to expensive builders is that you can "feel bored", even if you have superior burst when you DO have the resources.

Please remember that energy comes back from a few things, including haste. 28 energy builders could make you push into a global cap, and also don't neglect the energy return from performing finishers.


Rogue dps is not in a bad place. We don't need to "fix the damage" and definitely not "fix the resource". Neither are broken.





But since we're on this spiritual journey, I'll throw this out there: one spec having access to a combo point builder that GAINS you energy, and a combo point builder that COSTS you energy, would be interesting. There's a lot of unexplored territory with finisher costs as well.

[Clash the DK]

@ Verain

Deadly Poison is cool. Passively applying it is not cool. That's weak gameplay.

How does the DP mechanic I have outlined have anything to do with Frost DKs and their potential "burst"?

Leeching Poison wouldn't be such a drag if we followed my design concept. You would be able to use 2 utility poisons at all times. That opens up a world of opportunities. Using Leeching Poison wouldn't automatically lock you out of your slow or stun like it does today. This give us more flexibility.

We will most definitely agree to disagree on the topic of button bloat. Thank goodness the Devs understand the problem and are working to fix it.

So we agree that Recuperate obviously needs to be buffed if things were to stay the same. That's good. But, considering the toolkit of the Rogue, I think it would be better to roll that healing into Leeching Poison so that we have consistent and steady healing from one source. These are incremental heals we are talking about and the only self-heals available to a Rogue; This should be a passive thing so that we can focus more on the rest of our toolkit.

Make no mistake about it. Preparation is extremely unbalanced in certain scenarios. It feels like flat out cheating at times. It's also one of the main reasons why Rogues are so hated. I don't need that crutch. And as I said before, I think it will be removed when Readiness becomes a stat. Readiness will obviously encompass some defensive cooldowns as well. It wouldn't work otherwise.

If Vanish had a short cooldown, it would not change how we currently use it. It would still be used rotationally in PvE to max dps. And it would still be used when "needed" in PvP.

Again, where are you getting the "burst poison" thing?

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But since we're on this spiritual journey, I'll throw this out there: one spec having access to a combo point builder that GAINS you energy, and a combo point builder that COSTS you energy, would be interesting. There's a lot of unexplored territory with finisher costs as well.

Trust me when I say that we do not need Steady Shot for Rogues.

[Verain]

Deadly Poison is cool. Passively applying it is not cool. That's weak gameplay.

I disagree. Our gameplay is in part to maximize our autoattacks. To do this we have to maximize uptime (staying in range), run slice and dice properly (at least two specs do), and maximize envenom buff. I'd like that envenom buff magnitude increased, I could definitely get behind that. But overall, our characters are weapons masters so of course autoattacks and poisons should do a lot of our damage. It's good gameplay because of what you have to do to make it work.

How does the DP mechanic I have outlined have anything to do with Frost DKs and their potential "burst"?

Not just that. Most of the threads where people complain about passive damage are really asking for almost all the rogue damage to become yellow, like a frost DK.

Leeching Poison wouldn't be such a drag if we followed my design concept. You would be able to use 2 utility poisons at all times. That opens up a world of opportunities. Using Leeching Poison wouldn't automatically lock you out of your slow or stun like it does today. This give us more flexibility.

I'm not convinced it does. If you can't heal without leeching poison, you are married to it. If you can't snare without crippling, you are married to it (and our pvp 2 set is there to fix that in pvp). If your remaining choices are mind numbing (which needs a massive buff to make up for the global nerf- rogues always gave up more than the other classes for this) and paralytic, then "choose any two" isn't really as cool as it should be.

We will most definitely agree to disagree on the topic of button bloat. Thank goodness the Devs understand the problem and are working to fix it.

Citation needed. The devs have deleted buttons and then apologized for it (see: eyes of the beast). If we had two healing finishers and a shielding finisher, then there's some bloat there. Recuperate is not fucking bloat.

So we agree that Recuperate obviously needs to be buffed if things were to stay the same. That's good. But, considering the toolkit of the Rogue, I think it would be better to roll that healing into Leeching Poison so that we have consistent and steady healing from one source.

No, I think that's awful. Mostly because of how trashcan the whole leeching poison concept is. "Oh good, a mild heal that can be entirely disabled by anyone who presses a button at me in pvp." A heal that only heals when you are dealing damage is just awful without, say, heavy dots.

A good version of leeching could be interesting, but they are nowhere near it. And it wouldn't be nearly as cool as recuperate already is, and more importantly, was.

Make no mistake about it. Preparation is extremely unbalanced in certain scenarios. It feels like flat out cheating at times. It's also one of the main reasons why Rogues are so hated. I don't need that crutch.

You don't? What arena ratings have you been pushing this expac? How was 5.0 for you? What are you rated now? And I guess you do it all without pressing prep, right?

It's not a crutch man. It's a core element of cooldown based gameplay. Of course it feels powerful at times. But so does charge. Do warriors not need that "crutch"? Icelance can hit hard too. Is that also a crutch? How about dispersion?

Cool abilities are cool. Rogues aren't in a great spot (Did you see them at the blizzcon competition? I guess they must have buffed stealth, because it was the only class that didn't show up for any game at all) and are definitely by no means broken. So I guess prep isn't that broken after all, eh? In fact, when rogues are good, it's not because of prep. But if you lose prep, they certainly become entirely without viability.

My point is this: when rogues have had entire specs that could be balanced without prep (because they could not get it), they weren't. They were awful. Only with prep have rogues done anything, ever. That's not a fucking crutch. Though I appreciate the implied condescension.

And as I said before, I think it will be removed when Readiness becomes a stat.

Yea. I disagree. The things are orthogonal.

Readiness will obviously encompass some defensive cooldowns as well. It wouldn't work otherwise.

I'm pretty sure readiness as a stat will fall flat on its face. It's not really a rogue forum topic, but I feel pretty strongly about it. What would readiness do for moonkins and shadow priests? Balance druid cooldowns come from optional talents. It's not a row of "choose a cooldown", it's a row of damage increases, some of which are colodowns. So, they can't put THOSE on readiness- not without stripping the passives and repping them with cooldowns so the whole row can be affected. What about shadow priests?

So both of those specs need to gain dps cooldowns, likely ones that will scale wildly with readiness just because the stat will exist. Everyone will need cooldowns, and cooldowns will have to be somewhat similar in their magnitude and effects. All for some dumb stat that won't add much gameplay. Cooldowns are meaningless if you are always in them. Does anyone think AR+SB feels anywhere near as powerful as LK era AR? It's only remarkable because you use it all the time.

If Vanish had a short cooldown, it would not change how we currently use it.

Simply no way this is true. And we would be balanced around having that short cooldown, around NEEDING to vanish.

It would still be used rotationally in PvE to max dps.[

Only sub gets a meaningful boost out of vanish right now.

[Diamagon]

maybe instead of concentrating on the mechanics of combo points, passive/active damage, and other mechanics, think about the "feel" of a rogue. Let me give you some examples. there are various games that do stealth and robbing stuff, like dishonored, skyrim (if you go for stealth), deus ex: human revolution. I know you can do the "goes guns blazing everywhere, warrior-esque" but these games also have that rogue feel in them.

slipping past guards, avoiding sight, taking down targets in silence without triggering any alarm. meticulously bringing down your marks one by one in a master plan. without being seen or heard of. this is more akin to the dinamics (strategies, or what players do). But its also about the fantasy of being that shady guy who you know is dangerous.

wow has a lot of mechanics that permit these sort of things, stealth for example is a big mechanic in this game, and therefor the classes main distinctive trait. in bgs you can walk all around the map without anyone seeing you. you could be right behind a lonely flag defender, inching your dagger closer and closer.

the combo mechanic was supposed to work kinda how fighting games do their combos (or at least thats how I feel about it). and it doesnt quite work like that. yes you do have combo finishers, but it doesnt quite feel like you are doing a combo like those games. in wow it feels more like "i gotta use up my combo points in this finisher to refresh my buff/debuff/dot" it doesnt quite feel like your beating them up in a fantastic combo. its kinda feels like another resource, like an extra energy bar that you use for bigger attacks. the only finisher that feels (to me) like a combo thing is evicerate, having that big explosion of damage is really cool. but then again using all your combo points to only do evicerates isnt very good for dps.

so what makes a rogue for me is stealthy, stealthy, stabby, stabby, and then vanish. kinda why i go sub.

assasination as it seems for blizz is all about... assasination. thats why they have the execute spell, and they concentrate on poisons like its a premeditated thing to kill this specific target. this kind of character seems more about the kill, making it all planned out, killind silently and then getting out.

combat seems to be a bit more warrior-esque. you can stand toe to toe against some dangerous dudes, at least for a while. its kinda when in dishonored everything goes to hell and you end up fighting the guards and killing them, vanishing, then killing some more to finish them up and then you go for the target. its the kinda guy who works with caos.

subtlety seems like the robber, mugger or scammer kinda guy. its all about the stealth, not getting seen. you go in, you get the stuff, and you get out. noone saw you, you are invisible. you dont fight cause your not like those dumb warriors who get themselves killed in the field. you slip past everyone, kill if you have to, but never leaving any clues or tracks behind you, including the bodies you left behind. this kinda guy is your thief, slippery and incredibly tricksy.

wow sort of has these things with a couple of spells. assasination has an execute spell, poisons and ambush for your assasinations. it has evasion, combat readiness, dismantle and tons of stuns for your combats. and it has your vanish, pickpocket, pick lock, and sap for your subtle tricks.

if blizz really wants to make each spec distinctive then they should ask themselves, what is a assasination/combat/subtlety rogue dude, and what do they do, concentrate on those aspects and separate each kind of rogue.

having more combo points or passive damage wont make the specs different, its what each spec IS what makes them different.

[Clash the DK]

I disagree. Our gameplay is in part to maximize our autoattacks. To do this we have to maximize uptime (staying in range), run slice and dice properly (at least two specs do), and maximize envenom buff.

So an important aspect of our current gameplay is staying in melee range?

I'm not convinced it does. If you can't heal without leeching poison, you are married to it. If you can't snare without crippling, you are married to it (and our pvp 2 set is there to fix that in pvp). If your remaining choices are mind numbing (which needs a massive buff to make up for the global nerf- rogues always gave up more than the other classes for this) and paralytic, then "choose any two" isn't really as cool as it should be.

Yes, Leeching Poison would be a very important option. You would want to use it most of the time outside of niche situations. I don't see a problem there.

Citation needed. The devs have deleted buttons and then apologized for it (see: eyes of the beast). If we had two healing finishers and a shielding finisher, then there's some bloat there. Recuperate is not fucking bloat.

When people talk about button bloat, the term refers to excessive rotational buttons that serve no other purpose than to add more buttons for you to push. Eyes of the Beast did not fall into that category; And Blizzard was rightfully grilled for removing such a situational ability. Recuperate, on the other hand, is the very definition of button bloat. Do we really need 5 combo point consuming abilities? Could they have added a healing DoT to the class in some other form? Could it at the very least have been merged with Slice and Dice? Recuperate IS bloat.

No, I think that's awful. Mostly because of how trashcan the whole leeching poison concept is. "Oh good, a mild heal that can be entirely disabled by anyone who presses a button at me in pvp." A heal that only heals when you are dealing damage is just awful without, say, heavy dots.

A good version of leeching could be interesting, but they are nowhere near it. And it wouldn't be nearly as cool as recuperate already is, and more importantly, was.

Most classes can not heal when they are shut down in PvP. And we are discussing a buffed version of Leeching Poison.

It's not a crutch man. It's a core element of cooldown based gameplay. Of course it feels powerful at times. But so does charge. Do warriors not need that "crutch"? Icelance can hit hard too. Is that also a crutch? How about dispersion?

Did you just compare Charge, Icelance and Dispersion to Preparation. A cooldown that instantly resets FOUR important defensive cooldowns. Really?

I'm pretty sure readiness as a stat will fall flat on its face. It's not really a rogue forum topic, but I feel pretty strongly about it. What would readiness do for moonkins and shadow priests? Balance druid cooldowns come from optional talents. It's not a row of "choose a cooldown", it's a row of damage increases, some of which are colodowns. So, they can't put THOSE on readiness- not without stripping the passives and repping them with cooldowns so the whole row can be affected. What about shadow priests?

So both of those specs need to gain dps cooldowns, likely ones that will scale wildly with readiness just because the stat will exist. Everyone will need cooldowns, and cooldowns will have to be somewhat similar in their magnitude and effects. All for some dumb stat that won't add much gameplay. Cooldowns are meaningless if you are always in them. Does anyone think AR+SB feels anywhere near as powerful as LK era AR? It's only remarkable because you use it all the time.

I'm also a bit concerned about Readiness as a stat. I'm not so sure how they will pull this off to be honest.

Simply no way this is true. And we would be balanced around having that short cooldown, around NEEDING to vanish.

Only sub gets a meaningful boost out of vanish right now.

Yes, we would be balanced around having a short cooldown on Vanish. Removing Preparation would be the first step.

[ChampionChains]

I'm really looking forward to the revamp. I wish they'd make combat more about weapons and going toe-to-toe with other melee classes. What I'd really love to see given back to combat is the weapon specializations (mace stuns, axe crit, swords proccing extra swings, etc). Also more evasion and parries. Make combat a more "tanky" rogue. Let assassination rely more on poisons and bleeds. Change sub to focus more on stealth, cc, openers and the ability to get back into stealth more often than the other two specs.

Really hoping they make the 3 specs vastly different.

[CakeomgCake]

Don't dumb down our class by removing abilities, please.

[Coldkil]

What i'd like to see for my rogue (but very likely not happening)? More spells.

Our core mechanics and resource are fine as they are (they can be improved, yes), but it's always the same issue of spec identity. Making SnD passive for Assa won't change a thing since it's already is right now and it's been for a long time.
More spells like Eviscerate/Envenom that change with the spec; we don't need to press more button during our rotations, but we need definitely more different things to do between specs.

Also, our talents (again) need a redesign. Atm we have some scattered things which usually don't relate to each other in a tier and it's basically "get this because it's better" or "choose whatever since they aren't actually useful".

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Don't dumb down our class by removing abilities, please.

it's not about dumbing down - it's about removing crap abilities like TotT which aren't more than a macro to a fixed target to press every 30 seconds.

[Naiattavain]

guys check out the new lvl 100 talents yet? pretty nice.

[Calamari]

It would be pretty cool if we had some more poison micro-management when playing Assassination, our poison heavy spec. For example instead of poison being a boring passive auto-apply mechanic, it would be cool if Shiv was implemented into the single target rotation in some meaningful way.

For example, it could apply poison and maintain poison uptime (replacing that aspect of Envenom), and increase poison potency by 50% for 3s, you'd use Shiv at the start of a fight and just before each 5 point Envenom afterwards. Anything really to make the rotation a little more complex than the Muti-Envenom spam fast it is right now.

[Verain]

So an important aspect of our current gameplay is staying in melee range?

Yes, of course! Autoattacks make that true. We should have some penalty for offtarget, but not ludicrous. Autoattacks ensure this is the case. If you have a resource only (pretend assassination did no autoattack damage, for instance), you could be off target with no dps loss. Most games that are like this force you in melee to spam a 0 resource "strike' button, a ghetto version of autoattack (they then brag about not having autoattack, as if technical laziness is a selling point).

Yes, Leeching Poison would be a very important option. You would want to use it most of the time outside of niche situations. I don't see a problem there.

I really dislike stuff like this. "Choose any two, as long as they are these two." It's not good design.

When people talk about button bloat, the term refers to excessive rotational buttons that serve no other purpose than to add more buttons for you to push. Eyes of the Beast did not fall into that category; And Blizzard was rightfully grilled for removing such a situational ability.

Ok, with you so far...

Recuperate, on the other hand, is the very definition of button bloat.

.....and gone.

Recuperate is neither rotational nor bloaty. It represents a rogue breaking their rotation in exchange for self healing. It's not even rotational in pvp- though I liked it when it was, especially because sub didn't really mess with rupture in pvp at all and it was autorefreshed in pve, so it wasn't even an additional button.

Do we really need 5 combo point consuming abilities?

I think we need 6. We need a direct damage for burst, but it should be less efficient than a dot, which is more damage but you can't stack it, and it requires uptime. Then we should have one that buffs us in some manner and is on a timer, such that we can have some gameplay about how those fall off. It would be good to have a CC based finisher, of course, and we get a stun there, and a ranged finisher would also be good for if we are out of range. Finally, a defensive finisher would be good.


I would like to see a direct heal finisher, in fact- less total healing than recup, but right up front.

Most classes can not heal when they are shut down in PvP.

No, that's not the case. Everyone else either has a hot or direct heals. The ones with direct heals can't heal when stunned or silenced, but having direct healing lets them predict the shut down and react to it. Leeching is a hot, with all the crappy disadvantages of a hot (overheals, no burst healing, no help when you need it) without the advantages of the hot (consistency, heals you when you are out of commission).

Did you just compare Charge, Icelance and Dispersion to Preparation. A cooldown that instantly resets FOUR important defensive cooldowns. Really?

Did you just fucking ask me if I wrote what I wrote? The mind boggles.

Yes, of course, prep is comparable to all these other iconic moves. It doesn't matter if prep resets one cooldown or a million, the point is that classes have powerful abilities that change the scope of the game. Rogues without prep lose a thing they have always needed, just as warriors without charge would be toothless, and mages without icelance would be muted.

I'm also a bit concerned about Readiness as a stat. I'm not so sure how they will pull this off to be honest.

It will be like everything else they do- huge pvp ramifications with limited testing that they ignore, followed by blanket sweeping nerfs and buffs, all because it might be cool in a raid.

I say this as a raider and a pvper, I'm not shitting on either- but it is clear where their design priorities are. Hell, the whole talent trees are just a bunch of random pvp talents with one or two tiers on each class that modify pve rotations, with so very very little testing.

We don't know what they will do yet. The idea that readiness can make the difference between "I have a defensive for every bladestorm" and "nnnnnope" is pretty lame, and I'm also not looking forward to not having any idea when someone's CDs available. I also don't like any stat that has 0 effectiveness in a burst situation, but will inevitably not be optional or tweakable. But, I could rant on this for quite awhile. Every time they get around to solving a pvp problem it is the end of an expac, and then they go and make a bunch more.

Yes, we would be balanced around having a short cooldown on Vanish. Removing Preparation would be the first step.

Bullshit we would. Fuck removing prep. Again: if rogues were balanced around not having prep, then combat rogues and mutilate rogues would have been balanced around not having prep in Cata, hunger for blood rogues would have seen use in arena, and 5.0 wouldn't have featured the weakest class in the history of the game being solidly rogue without debate or question.

It's that simple. If they remove prep, the rogue class is tanked. They've shown us this nearly a dozen times.

We might actually see charges on the moves instead of the removal of prep. I'm a bit worried about that because it would be such a wild buff.

Vanish- double vanish is the soul of rogue.
Evasion- double evasion is really cool, but you could offer a different lamer form of it, or a shorter CD
Sprint- double sprint is nice
Dismantle- Every disarm has a perk. We could lose double dismantle, but would need another perk.

Hunter disarm: Ranged, can be done when CCed.
Monk disarm: Ranged, can buff monk.
Priest disarm: Ranged, shorter cooldown [also sucks, but not because of the disarm part]
Warrior disarm: Weakens target
Rogue disarm: Can be prepped into second disarm.

So it can come off the move, but then it needs a buff.

[catablitz]

I think we need 6. We need a direct damage for burst, but it should be less efficient than a dot, which is more damage but you can't stack it, and it requires uptime. Then we should have one that buffs us in some manner and is on a timer, such that we can have some gameplay about how those fall off. It would be good to have a CC based finisher, of course, and we get a stun there, and a ranged finisher would also be good for if we are out of range. Finally, a defensive finisher would be good.

Allthough I respect the poster, I have to disagree with this. We don't need a bloat of finishers. Situational or not. Utility doesn't have to always come out of finishers. They can be stand alone abilities and to be honest they should not even cost resources always but a gcd. In that direction, Feint should not cost any energy at all. Pure dpsers don't trade off survivability for utility. Moreover, the only class ever existed that brought 0 buffs to the raid, has evolved into bringing a super buff on a 30 secs cd. It is the must hit ToT button at the cost of your own dps. Totally alien philosophy and completely disgusting.

Ok, back on topic. Why should a dot finisher do more dps or dpe than the burst one? Anyway, we do have a range finisher, it is deadly throw and we also have the stuns as CC finisher and you can tag recuperate as a defensive finisher. The problem lies within the importance of the obligation to execute all your finishers in order to achieve max potential. In other words, if you need a couple of globals to apply 1)your buff finisher, 2)your debuff finisher, 3)your dot finisher 4)your burst finisher and whatever else, then you need a very long period to reach your maximum horsepower. Actually more than a pure dot spec.

In any case, as long as finishers don't feel like finishers number wise, nothing really matters. When you see that a lot of your sinisters crit more than the average hit of an evis....

[Deleted]

Ok, back on topic. Why should a dot finisher do more dps or dpe than the burst one? Anyway, we do have a range finisher, it is deadly throw and we also have the stuns as CC finisher and you can tag recuperate as a defensive finisher. The problem lies within the importance of the obligation to execute all your finishers in order to achieve max potential. In other words, if you need a couple of globals to apply 1)your buff finisher, 2)your debuff finisher, 3)your dot finisher 4)your burst finisher and whatever else, then you need a very long period to reach your maximum horsepower. Actually more than a pure dot spec.

A dot should do more Damage or have a better DPE than a direct finisher. If not, noone would use the DoT (if that DoT does not have additional benefits of course, like Rupture granting you energy)
It is the trade off between “shall I do damage right now?” vs “shall I do more damage, but have to wait for it to complete?”
It promotes better gameplay because you will have to make the decision about whether you will gain the full benefit of the DoT or not, and about whether you need the direct damage to burst down something or not.

[Verain]

One minute cooldowns max for a rogue, even on prep. combo point finishers run @ 35 energy. 28 energy cost for expose armor, mutilate, rs, ss, hemo, bs, fok, and shuriken toss.

I run into energy problems as it is. I don't want cheaper builders. I much prefer more expensive builders- then the builders and the finishers can both hit for more!

Sap incapacitates out of combat players 20 seconds first sap. second sap incapacitates for seven seconds until immune.

20 seconds of CC is game breaking and crazy. It's a really bad plan.

Blind lasts 20 seconds and has a 42 second cooldown.

Why would you want to do this to the game?

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Ok, back on topic. Why should a dot finisher do more dps or dpe than the burst one?

1- A dot can do more- FAR more than burst- because it is limited to one on a target at a time.
2- A dot can do more because it will deal the damage over time, instead of up front- this minimizes pvp burst concerns.
3- A dot MUST do more than burst, because otherwise there is no purpose for the dot.
4- A dot should do more than burst because it is interesting to decide whether to dot a target or not in some situations, especially based on how long you expect the target to survive.


A dot finisher is interesting and powerful without being disruptive to the rest of the game. A burst finisher is the "dump"- it is the thing you use when you don't have anything better. If it is also the ONLY thing to spend combo points on, then we don't have combo points, we have eviscerate points.

I like feint costing energy because of how effective it is. Without that, it would only cost globals. I liked the cata model ok as well, where it cost no energy but couldn't be up all the time, but I really like being able to keep it up full time when I need to.

Anyway, we do have a range finisher, it is deadly throw

Of course. I would like to see it baselined again, in fact. I wasn't saying we needed another, but the guy I'm replying to seems to think it is bloat of some sort.

and we also have the stuns as CC finisher and you can tag recuperate as a defensive finisher.

Indeed, and I support this. I wouldn't be too sad to see kidney shot become a button instead of a finisher though- we get VERY little consideration, versus other CC, for such effort. Ex: Kidney is 6 or 8 seconds at max combo points, which requires build up, is on the melee hit table, and is melee. Other stuns are frequently 4-6 seconds, ranged or aoe, and often can't be dodged or parried. Each stun is unique, but S and A's KS is only interesting because of the 20 second cooldown (longer cooldowns often just barely come off DR, so this is rarely useful versus a single target) and its slightly longer duration than average, combined with not being dispellable. C's is the best stun in the game if it lands, but is tied to the C spec, which has plenty of downsides. Why is kidney shot not a 10 second cooldown like the feral version, or even no damned cooldown if the intended regulation method is a cooldown? I mean, we don't have Eviscerate (no cooldown) and Super Eviscerate (20 second cooldown), and we've been scolded for asking.

The problem lies within the importance of the obligation to execute all your finishers in order to achieve max potential. In other words, if you need a couple of globals to apply 1)your buff finisher, 2)your debuff finisher, 3)your dot finisher 4)your burst finisher and whatever else, then you need a very long period to reach your maximum horsepower. Actually more than a pure dot spec.

A valid concern, but overall not an issue. If the buff finisher is short duration, yes, this is lame, but slice and dice generally is not. If the debuff finisher is WORTH USING- and often this is not the case- then you can make the call based on that (ex: if your target is a warrior, rupture will *greatly* outdamage eviscerate, but the dot nature of it often makes it not worth casting as S or C, and A uses the debuff instead of the buff, really). So to get a kill, you might just go straight to your burst finishers, but to be better at sustained you will want your buff and dot finishers active, THEN switch to a mode of throwing burst and maintaining. I really don't see anything bad about that as a core model.


And a sinister critting higher than something is ok- a crit is TIMES TWO after all!

[Bullettime]

I really miss some of the reactive gameplay from the old Combat, at least when soloing. If only they could find a way to incorporate that into the standard cycle. Combat is supposed to be the fencer/swashbuckler hybrid but it doesn't play any different than stealth focused dagger specs. Really, all 3 specs are a shit load of passive auto damage.

Ideally it would look like
-Assassination: Poison expert
-Combat: Fencer/Pirate
-Subtlety: Shadow ninja

Moving Deadly Poison to Assassination in a more active manner as suggested by the OP isn't really a bad idea. Would like to see some streamlining of the finishers though. Some simple suggestions when the beta rolls out would be something like
-Assassination: Envenom, new spec specific finishing move, more active poison control
-Combat: Slice and Dice reworked a little, Eviscerate, reactive procs in place of Bandit's Guile (a mechanic that always felt wonky and out of place)
-Subtlety: Rupture, new spec specific finishing move, Shadow Dance as a more integral kit mechanic instead of a cooldown

[Coldkil]

To be honest, i never liked bandit's guile. As said multiple times, the idea of building up resources to spend during the Red phase for maximum output simply pales and disappears in front of Relentless Blades which basically says "hey, blast off you CDs even more as soon they're available".

I'd rework that into a simpler and imho more appealing mechanic - bandit's guile becomes a stacking buff that once reached maximum level can be activated to make a finisher more powerful; example: 100 maximum stacks accumulating through any attacks, once reached 100 you can press the BG button (or can be automatically activated on next finihser, but i prefer to have direct control) and do a bigger Eviscerate or a 1.5x speed SnD. This way, Relentless blades won't work against BG but actually in synergy with it (faster stacking and more usage).

Just another "my two cents" post.

[Deleted]

I'm gonna throw this out here...

Seriously there is nothing wrong with rogue specs, they are pretty distinct as it is.
And personally i like each and every one.
I've been combat in TBC, and then from Naxx 2.0 till SoO Assassination.
This was because i really liked the "flow" of the Assassination spec and while relatively simple as far as specs go, if you knew what you are doing you could still shine with it and be better than some "less skilled" players.
With advent of AoC in SoO, and plenty of cleavy fights in SoO, combat became superior spec so i was forced into it, after an acclimation period and setting up a few WA to track stuff i started liking the spec, and began playing it pretty well, however i really really cannot get into the "leather warrior" playstyle and dislike thinking of my rogue as such.
So recently i decided to give subtlety a shot as i started PvPing a lot on non raid days.
At the start i failed so hard i almost quit it (didn't even try the spec since vanilla), however as stubborn as i am i went around looking for advice and setting up macros to make it work.
After about 10 of them i got the spec working, and learned to play it pretty well during last 2 weeks.
However mastering it properly will probably take a few more weeks.
It isn't better than combat it just suits my playstyle better and i enjoy playing it.
Atm my guild is progressing on Garrosh hc25 and I'm on siege engineer duty in p1, but even with all the downtime running around i manage to put insane dmg into the boss,more than some people that are on the boss full time.
Other rogue which is combat cleaves more on adds and ends up above me on the meters but a lot of it is wasted dmg as adds get knocked into iron star anyway.
So the spec works as I'm putting the dmg where it counts.

So the breakdown of the specs from my perspective would be:

Assassination --> revolves around poisons and max envenom uptime (basic and simplest spec)
Combat --> revolves around slow weapons and cleave (intermediate and slightly more "complex" then assassination)
Subtletly --> revolves around bleeds and stealth attacks (advanced spec which requires a lot of involvement, tracking "skills" and ofc macros)

So they are quite different as it is, and offer different things with varying degrees of complexity , only thing that is need of improvement as far as rogues go imho are the visuals and animations which are quite bland and boring.

For example there was a Golden Lotus quest in Vale of Eternal Blossoms (the original version of the vale) where you fought some statues which used attacks with visual similar to Envenom, however it was much much better and "detailed", i was baffled that it wasn't used as envenom visual for players :/


TLDR Each rogue spec is very distinct atm, and they offer different levels of complexity, only thing that is in need of an overhaul are rogue visuals

[Naiattavain]

I really don't know why you guys don't talk about the real problems with the rogue class. rubbish.

infracted: spam

[Zafire]

I want Subtlety to be more about stealth. Maybe finishing moves letting me lower my vanish recast by an amount of combo points used. I want Ambush to hit *HARD* as opposed to Eviscerate. Maybe remove shadow dance and replace it with something else to compensate (Increase your next Ambush or Garrote by 100%)? As a subtlety Rogue, I want to be able to feel dangerous in stealth and weaker outside of stealth.

[Verain]

To be honest, i never liked bandit's guile. As said multiple times, the idea of building up resources to spend during the Red phase for maximum output simply pales and disappears in front of Relentless Blades which basically says "hey, blast off you CDs even more as soon they're available".

These two mechanics were launched at the exact same time, which makes it even more awful.

I think bandit's guile adds depth. I am positive restless blades does not. For combat to have such a silly mechanic really demands dominance on a patchwerk, which we don't get in most situations.

Bandit's Guile in theory would be cool. While revealing strike is an ok secondary strike, a think a better thing for combat would be any of:
1- A move off the global.
2- A builder that doesn't advance bandit's guile.
3- A button to manipulate bandit's guile in some way.

But even without all of this, bandit's guile's bigger issue is that we don't have the ability to meaningfully stack anything into red. Not a timer trinket, not a cooldown (which have become rotational), pretty much nothing at all. There's times when it can be better to pool energy during yellow, but those few seconds, which happen only a few times a fight, are all that we have for interaction with this apparently core mechanic. But that's better than restless blades.


Restless Blades is awful for every reason you can think of. It is the worst thing that has happened to combat rogues since ever. Nothing will ever be worse than restless blades, for any spec in the game.


And the sad thing? Most rogues like this move.


Restless Blades is trashcan for several reasons:

1- You are balanced around using the cooldowns at that rate. Don't let anyone fool you otherwise. Even Celestalon wondered why restless blades hurts combat in pvp (where you basically never get to advance it). Combat's cooldowns make you fill 1 second globals for quite a long time, and if you don't get that benefit, the cost is absolutely shocking. There's like a full minute of three cooldowns packed into the finishers provided by each adrenblades, so if you can't make use of those, Go Directly To Hell. Most classes would experience a loss if they got turned off during their cooldowns, of course- but you pay it twice. First, you lose the damage. Secondly, your next cooldown cycle is very far away. It would be like if a mage got interrupted during his burn cycle, his cooldowns just stop cooling down for a minute.

2- Many moves don't work with it. You probably don't expect slice and dice to- in fact, it's one of the few moves you can use when you are trying to not press a finisher (ex: you have 8 seconds left on adrenblades, spree is off cooldown and would really like the combo points to advance all three of those instead of being mostly wasted). But for NO REASON AT ALL recuperate, kidney shot, and deadly throw fail to advance this move. This is unacceptable, and the devs really think it's fine, which honestly makes me wonder what they secretly think when they play (my suspicion is that the devs who combat rogue in pve simply tunnel and have reached the conclusion that they couldn't make it any clearer what a combat rogue should do, and the rogue devs who are world class in pvp simply don't ever play combat in arena). Recuperate is never the right call for dps- it is sometimes the right call in a raid. But unlike sub and mutilate, who both lose the damage of a finisher and that is all, Combat also gets penalized by having less access to their cooldowns. Deadly Throw should absolutely advance it- you would never use deadly throw (and cannot use it from melee range) instead of eviscerate or rupture, so putting on here simply allows a combat rogue to advance their cooldowns in arena, should they actually take this move. Kidney Shot is the most absurd- it makes kidney just cost so so so so much in pve. No one else has to pay this much dps for their dumb stun. And in pvp, it's even sillier- you need to kidney a lot, why can't it give you your CDs back? It's not like anyone else has to make this "choice".

3- Cheapens the meaning of CDs. In the olden days, a combat rogue with cooldowns was either top damage or very very close. That can't be the case now- combat simply has too much cooldown uptime for our cooldowns to be meaningful. And also this reduces the damage our normal moves can do.

Pretend, for a moment, that restless blades was deleted, and the damage was made up for in sinister strike, revealing strike, rupture, and eviscerate.


The little bit of depth this adds is more than made up for by the nightmare of having to stay on target all the time. Again, while everyone loses dps off target, only the combat rogue experiences the true depth of bullshit that is restless blades denial.


Then there's the awful lack of synergy these two have. Restless Blades says "push your buttons as fast as you can". Bandit's Guile says "put stuff in red and yellow, and try to not spend much time in blank and green". Which one wins? Restless Blades wins. So that tells us how to play. The few times it doesn't win are interesting- near the end of a fight, next to a planned burn phase- but pooling cooldowns hurts combat way more than it should, making it cost more for a combat rogue to pool cooldowns. Wouldn't a class where it made more sense to pool cooldowns until a color be more interesting than one where you just have to mash button?

Of the two, I think BG has some merit and depth. RB offers a bit of depth, mostly dedicated to not pressing finishers unless you have to when your CDs are available, but not as much as BG, and it so super holds us back in pvp, while making us unsuitable to doing anything but blendering.


Oh, and wait- there's scaling issues to be had. The awful "readiness" stat, which is competing with some stats only functioning partially in pvp whilst others have full effect as "worst WoD idea", will be tuned on a per spec basis. You've seen how amazing AoC is for combat, but if you recall, the spec changes from ToT to SoO netted a moderate combat rogue nerf- Blizzard has to balance around geared players, and so they balanced around AoC. Since you won't be able to reforge, you face the very real possibility of a piece with readiness on it making a shockingly large difference between the dps you are balanced around and Fischer-Price My First Deeps.

I'd rework that into a simpler and imho more appealing mechanic - bandit's guile becomes a stacking buff that once reached maximum level can be activated to make a finisher more powerful; example: 100 maximum stacks accumulating through any attacks, once reached 100 you can press the BG button (or can be automatically activated on next finihser, but i prefer to have direct control) and do a bigger Eviscerate or a 1.5x speed SnD. This way, Relentless blades won't work against BG but actually in synergy with it (faster stacking and more usage).

I'm not seeing why this adds depth without a bit of a tweak... with a bit of a tweak- say, it stacks to 100, and using it consumes 30 for the boost- then that I definitely buy. I think you'd not want it to boost slice and dice, because you would assuredly have to use it for that (otherwise, why have it boost slice and dice?), but it would be cool to be able to boost an eviscerate to devastating quality, and do it a few times in a row with build up.