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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    That's not replacing it, that's removing it completely. Why remove it?

    I wasn't satisfied with just 5-mans for my alts. However, I'd be fine with seeing LFR go in favor of flex.
    I think that's probably where the more moderate opinion sits. Those who legitimately want to raid have flex (soon to be "Normal"), which means LFR loses a huge chunk of its players. Before departing for Riot, even Greg Street implied that he didn't believe LFR was actually raiding and I, personally, believe it does the game more harm than good.

    The only snag is that those who now run LFR for gear would need an alternate means of getting hold of it were LFR taken out.

    I can't begin to tell you how happy that'd make me; when a one-expansion feature like pet battles sees a higher participation rate than raiding, it tells you how niche of an activity raiding really is.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    That's not replacing it, that's removing it completely. Why remove it?

    I wasn't satisfied with just 5-mans for my alts. However, I'd be fine with seeing LFR go in favor of flex.
    I suppose it's a matter of flavor, but LFR has sort of taken the umph out of endgame for me. I burn out way faster than I used to before LFR was implemented, mostly because you can hit level cap and hop into raids. Grinding raids is fun when you're in a progression guild. I don't think it is when it's a means to grind to gear for normal modes. They take much longer to queue up for and to complete, you get only one shot at gear a week per boss (minus coins) and I dare say they're even less challenging than 5mans because it really is possible to afk through them without anyone noticing.

    Before LFR, strictly speaking as a casual (since this is the only demographic LFR should affect anyway), raiding was something to work towards and it always felt a little rewarding getting your character up to pug levels. The grind never seemed as bad, especially now with flex as an additional difficulty level, and it felt great to see the exclusive endgame content. With today's methods you're sick of the raid before setting foot in it with a normal mode pug.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by evdawg6543 View Post
    I just think they should add more 5 mans. I hate getting Gate of the setting sun EVERYTIME I do my daily heroic for valor.
    Pretend you have 3 gate of the setting suns released as new dungeons, and those 3 make the other 9 heroic dungeons worthless, that's Patch 4.3 dragon soul. I was furious, these stupid bullshit dungeons were fucking terrible. Admittedly Dragon Soul also sucked, but I'd take LFR over 3 terrible heroics any day of the week.
    Quote Originally Posted by Primohastat View Post
    That toxicity is normal in WoW. Even classic. And it comes from this what so called elitism, spreading everywhere. Average player say that classic is piss easy and every aspect can be done with minimal effort. But right after that, the same player ignites with rage when someone wants to apply that minimal effort

  4. #104
    I definitely miss running 5 mans at max level. I'm ok with LFR being for stupids and as a stepping stone for Flex+, but I wish there were still reasons to run 5-mans other than JP/rep/challenge mode. Some rare higher iLvl purps might be nice. I think my favorite time running lots of 5 mans was the end of WotLK. Frozen Halls were some of my favorites.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    It is not about having fun.
    Still this stupid assumption that people are in LFR because they choose to be.
    Flex still has a core organised requirement, where nobody can hop in or out without the full co-operation of a raid leader and others in the raid.
    Flex on its own in the current form is not solving anything inherently, but requires that players to see the potential it offers in the flexible sizing.
    LFR will remain necessary as long as the players make it so.
    Flex solves the issue of guilds having to bench some players, and people not being able to raid because they cannot have a predictable schedule or fit their guild's times. By letting people drop out without a problem, aside from tanks, a player can join their guilds group for 2 hours, and leave 2 hours before the guild raid ends with no problem. It solved the whole "I can't fit to a schedule" because now you don't need to schedule in time, leaving early or joining late doesn't hinder the group, and the group isnt constrained by a specific number of players.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    My point is that Flex still isn't accessible to drop in and out of without the co-operation of the raid.
    Why do you think some people are flocking to the likes of oQueue ?
    Because that adds the LFR convenience into willing Flex groups.

    Flex is not a "better LFR" but a fundamentally different format due to that requirement.

    If guilds are dictating that LFR is necessary, then that is not an issue blizzard created.
    But one that the community did.
    And that is why LFR exists, why LFD exists.
    Because of the community, one which pretty often sucks.
    Flex struggled with the drop in drop out style because they had hard breakpoints for mechanics at launch.You didn't want to bring 14 people if you couldnt go all the way to 17 or so.

    Blizzard created the necessity for LFR because they decided what the drops would be. By having LFR drop gear superior to ToT, even some trinkets/tier beating heroic ToT gear, and it being easier, they reduced the necessity to use ToT as a gearing path, which shrunk the pool of potential players for ToT groups this patch. By making Timeless gear such crap without gem slots and whatnot, and weak weapons, they again pushed players into LFR. LFR was built for players in 496 gears, Flex was not, you need to get a lot of Timeless pieces via burdens or get carried if you expect to go from 496 into Flex. If they hadn't made the LFR gear this patch better than the ToT gear, then ToT pugs would be more plentiful because ToT would be part of the gearing path, rather than trampled by LFR, and given that it is nerfed as well as balanced around 496 gear in the first place, it would have been the next step from Timeless isle. Their design has created the need for doing LFR. Ontop of that, to maximize chances of getting legendary drops, running ToT is important, and because of the ease of getting the legendary and the strength of it, it is expected, and for the reasons I said above ToT pugs are harder to come by because of a small pool of potential players.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Maybe if you actually interacted with the other people in LFR you could claim that. They are warm bodies that you have no care for and couple be replaced with NPCs without anybody noticing. Meanwhile if the other members of your raid team were suddenly NPCs you would notice right away.
    I'm pretty sure I would notice. I bet the NPCs could successfully navigate the Durumu maze, stop attacking Nazgrim in defensive stance, jump on crawler mines and/or destroy them as needed, stay out of Thok's mouth and do many of the other things that players typically neglect to do unless they have been properly instructed to do them. If you honestly think you can get through LFR these days without interacting with anyone I'd say you haven't been running LFR for a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzorx View Post
    I still insist Durumu LFR is proof 1/2 the people bot in LFR. How you can die to that when the maze does 0 damage is amazing.
    It is amazing because you're telling an outright lie. If the maze did 0 damage no one would die to it. The reason people die to that maze is because the graphics are absolutely horrible. The path doesn't open up until the last second, and even then you can't see it unless you're right at its edge. If you fall behind by even just a little bit the next portion won't open up to you and you're stuck running back and forth looking for its current edge. If they fixed the graphics people wouldn't die to it as much.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  7. #107
    The only problem with LFR is that it takes forever to queue for it.

    The changes in WoD to bring it down to as few as 10 players should fix that quite a bit.

    If you hate LFR because you hate who is in there, then the solution is simple. Skip LFR. Pug Flex. If you're not capable of that, then LFR really is for you and you should be careful throwing those stones in that glass house. You're one of them.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmist View Post
    The only problem with LFR is that it takes forever to queue for it.

    The changes in WoD to bring it down to as few as 10 players should fix that quite a bit.

    If you hate LFR because you hate who is in there, then the solution is simple. Skip LFR. Pug Flex. If you're not capable of that, then LFR really is for you and you should be careful throwing those stones in that glass house. You're one of them.
    It is rather amusing, for me, that people complaining about LFR, either for its removal or the loot, to try the third option, to skip it.

    If they cannot resist the tempting carrot offered from LFR, then it must be removed. It is not their problem that they cannot resist the carrot that it dangles in front of their eyes.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    It is amazing because you're telling an outright lie. If the maze did 0 damage no one would die to it. The reason people die to that maze is because the graphics are absolutely horrible. The path doesn't open up until the last second, and even then you can't see it unless you're right at its edge. If you fall behind by even just a little bit the next portion won't open up to you and you're stuck running back and forth looking for its current edge. If they fixed the graphics people wouldn't die to it as much.
    It doesn't open up till the last second because thats what actually adds some difficulty to it. If the entire maze opened up all in one shot it would just be a maze.... a fucking mouse can do a regular maze. The difficulty is in that the graphics are not super clear and you have to be on the ball going into the next section. Also the maze opens up whether you are there or not. Not even sure what your talking about when you say you can't see the next path untill your right at the edge.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Not even sure what your talking about when you say you can't see the next path untill your right at the edge.
    Maybe it's just a function of lag on my part, then, but half the time the maze quits updating about 3/4 of the way through it and I can't find the next spot to go for several seconds. Usually I find the place, but sometimes not. Sorry, but using bad graphics to increase game difficulty was made obsolete as a gaming paradigm sometime in the mid '90s. If you want to revisit those days I'm sure there's an emulator out there that will load up King's Quest for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  11. #111
    If you like raiding then you should not be anti-LFR, why? Because LFR allows you to have 100% of the end game resources spent on raiding.

    Blizzard said that a 5 man dungeon takes almost as long as a raid wing to complete.

    It takes 6 months to make 4 raid wings to release.

    If it takes 75% of the time to make a 5 man as opposed to a raid (and I think thats lowballing) To make 4 dungeons it would take 4 months.

    That means they have 2 months left to make in the 6 month release window to make raids.

    Currently Blizz makes a raid, adds a few mechanics for heroic, tunes it down for flex and slices off a pale shade of raids, slaps a code on it to queue in and end and walla, 6 month release of 12-15 raid bosses.

    I am hoping they have additional teams for the 5 mans and they dont cut in on raider content. 100% of end game content is raider content, as a raider I enjoy that, sure it means having to deal with assbags going afk in lfr but I get all the real benefits in my raid group.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neos300 View Post
    I couldn't agree more. This is a major part of what made WoW skyrocket in popularity when it was young, and it's part of the reason many of the newer players don't have any emotional investment anymore. It's just queue queue queue instead of trying to find players to do things with.
    While I agree with what you're saying, I actually believe that dungeons and more challenging world quests were the lifeblood of the game back then and would be again if the design philosophy should return to it. In my experience, the overwhelmingly higher percentage of legitimate "group" play consists of much smaller groups of chums and they were the backbone of servers. With challenging and meaningful five-man content, small groups can all play together and it only takes an extra one or two people for a decent dungeon run.

    And by decent, I mean dangerous and lengthy dungeons that aren't simply something to be chewed through in a week and then utterly forgotten. This is why I'm so devastated that they're redoing Upper Blackrock Spire - they're simply going to attach the rails to it so that you can't explore, and can kill its three bosses in less than 15 minutes.

    The approach to dungeon content nowadays is an absolute shambles.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    In my experience, the overwhelmingly higher percentage of legitimate "group" play consists of much smaller groups of chums and they were the backbone of servers.
    In my experience too. It's a lot harder for a couple of buddies and I to have an enjoyable experience with 6-24 tagalongs than it is with only one or two of them. This is why raiding doesn't appeal to friends and family groups, not even Flex raiding. The difficulty is only part of the issue. The sheer quantity of players is the bigger turn off.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    In my experience too. It's a lot harder for a couple of buddies and I to have an enjoyable experience with 6-24 tagalongs than it is with only one or two of them. This is why raiding doesn't appeal to friends and family groups, not even Flex raiding. The difficulty is only part of the issue. The sheer quantity of players is the bigger turn off.
    Particularly if those players do want to develop into legitimate raiders; their experience can be utterly derailed by 22 to 23 people causing them to consistently fail at something through no fault of their own. Even PvP, with all its problems, is much more fun with a small group of chums who stick together and consider the bigger picture rather than just solo-queuing, zerging things, and hoping for the best.

    The push toward raids and RBG's in Cataclysm caused a huge issue for casual players (note: the players that this game is made up from), particularly coming from WotLK with the huge number of dungeons and the currency-based PvE gearing that accompanied it. That was far more in line, in my view, with what a casual playerbase needs than holding a players hand through the guaranteed success of LFR.

    Sadly, every expansion moves further and further away from that because this team are all raiders and want to justify the resources all being spent on it. As I've said multiple times on multiple threads, raiding is a niche activity and always was.

    The prior team knew that, and we got Wrath of the Lich King.

    The current team don't know that, and we get Casterclysm and Mists of Kung-Fu Panda.

    The result is a loss of four million players with Po and pals still to inflict its end-of-expansion lull.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    In my experience too. It's a lot harder for a couple of buddies and I to have an enjoyable experience with 6-24 tagalongs than it is with only one or two of them. This is why raiding doesn't appeal to friends and family groups, not even Flex raiding. The difficulty is only part of the issue. The sheer quantity of players is the bigger turn off.
    THIS!

    My days of giving a shit about heroic progression have come and gone. Now I'd just like some content I can do with my small group of 4-5 friends. Flex has been good for that, more or less, but I'd really like some good small group content. I have more fun goofing off in Ulduar/ICC and farming bloody coins than raiding anymore. Challenge Modes are probably my favorite thing.
    Last edited by crunk; 2014-02-07 at 01:38 PM.

  16. #116
    I tend to find that LFR groups do better in the maze when you explain to them that when the beam comes out it will rotate in the direction of where the purple first spawns. If it spawns on the left side of the beam you need to go to the left and the beam will follow, if it spawns on the right you need to go to the right and the beam will follow.
    About half of the dead will be the melee dps who are behind the boss and in the purple when it spawns, and they need to be out front to be safe from the purple and to know which direction to move in.

    It requires that melee stop doing what they have been trained to do, melee from behind, to step out front and figure out which direction to move in and it goes against their nature to do it. Kind of like how on the towers of Galakras the best way for the tank to avoid the cone attacks is to walk through the mob but the brain tells you to go around because you think that boss occupies a physical space.

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