Preventing PvP on a PvE Realm: No More "Accidental" Flagging

[Stir]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

Sorry, you are wrong mate. While it might be griefing to use large mounts in front of a mailbox to try and get flagged(not mentioned in the OP), it is NOT griefing to kill enemy NPC or leaders(mentioned in the OP).

Now it gets a little interesting.
You see, when most people use 'griefing' to refer to computer games, they don't necessarily mean 'exploiting' or 'cheating.' Those words are perfectly viable. What they mean is that they are being frustrated by someone.

Even so, provoking flags through clever positioning tricks IS exploiting the game mechanic... So that would qualify as 'griefing' according to that link of yours.

And now there's a little grey area: Killing questgivers in a lowbie area. While killing off the NPCs itself, in a vacuum, is not griefing per sé, the kicker is as follows: If you do so with the intent of preventing other people's progress/gaming experience, if you do so with the intent of frustrating them, then you are exploiting the game system in order to frustrate people. The game system allows you to kill NPCs. There's nothing wrong with that per sé. But the secondary effect is that other players will not be able to take or hand in quests... The secondary effect, that becomes the main objective. So yes, you are exploiting the game in order to frustrate unwilling participants, so yes, you ARE griefing even by gamer lexocon definition.

[Giscoicus]

...that's your argument? Seriously? Not that the action specified is specifically called out as not allowed, but you're going to quibble over what it is called?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways

But, okay, fine, let's pretend that the two are not synonymous. Then we'll just do a find/replace for the word "griefing" in this thread and replace it with "harassment", because that will totally change the context of everything.

And harassment is repeated and personal. Irritating is subjective and is why GRIEFING IS NOT A PUBISHBLE OFFENSE. People get upset by variable things, upsetting you isn't bannable, exploiting is.

[Jilor]

And like I said, why don't PvPers have the same options? Leveling via PvP is awful, can't get certain reputations up without PvE thus blocking us from crafting recipes and whatnot. You can't even get to level 10 without PvEing unless you get carried around exploring. Letting PvErs say no to any PvP from square 1 is ridiculous and they aren't offering the same opportunity to PvPers simply because somebody would get sad I can stand on my low level alt anywhere in the game as long as I'm flagged because that let's me bypass certain things.

Sounds like you need to take your issue to Blizzard, not to tell other people they can't have stuff because you can't level or increase reputations (pve functions) effectively while pvp'ing.

[Vokal]

Well, I understand where you're coming from, but flagging as a PvE character is based on a player's action to flag themselves (even if it's on accident), so I'm not sure it's us making you PvP. The systems that can cause someone to flag can absolutely at times be involuntary, which is notably frustrating.

In any case we are continuing toward a goal of a PvP on/off toggle for players on PvE realms to be added in Warlords of Draenor, which would absolutely and in all situations allow someone to refrain from becoming flagged regardless of their actions. Heals toward flagged players would fail, coalescing to PvP realms wouldn't be possible, misclicks and AoE's would never damage a flagged opponent, etc. It's actually quite a bit of work because of all the systems involved, but it's still something we think PvE players should have, and how the game should work for them.

~ Bashiok

Source

So, PvE players will finally get to avoid the PvP antics of instigators. It's about time. PvP has no place on a PvE realm. It belongs in Arenas, BGs, and PvP/RP-PvP realms. I see the need to have NPCs for "For The Alliance/Horde" to be made killable, but flagging is not needed for that even. They would simply be Red to opposing factions (Guards and Kings only). Every other NPC should get the same setting as child characters in the game. Auctioneers, boatmen, vendors, etc. None of them should be killable, not on PvE realms.

PvP has it's place, and now, just like neutering Twinks, we can neuter griefers.

Change just sounds like you'd be neutering yourself tbh.

[Deathgoose]

And harassment is repeated and personal. Irritating is subjective and is why GRIEFING IS NOT A PUBISHBLE OFFENSE. People get upset by variable things, upsetting you isn't bannable, exploiting is.

The EXACT scenario of people parking their big ass mount on top of a NPC/doodad/etc was given in their harassment policy. I linked it, even quoted it verbatim. In this thread, people have given that exact scenario, one-upped with the addition that they are flagged to try and trick the unwary into getting flagged.

How can you then say "Oh, but that doesn't count, because of reasons I am pulling out of my ass"? I am boggled. Really.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Now it gets a little interesting.
You see, when most people use 'griefing' to refer to computer games, they don't necessarily mean 'exploiting' or 'cheating.' Those words are perfectly viable. What they mean is that they are being frustrated by someone.

Even so, provoking flags through clever positioning tricks IS exploiting the game mechanic... So that would qualify as 'griefing' according to that link of yours.

And now there's a little grey area: Killing questgivers in a lowbie area. While killing off the NPCs itself, in a vacuum, is not griefing per sé, the kicker is as follows: If you do so with the intent of preventing other people's progress/gaming experience, if you do so with the intent of frustrating them, then you are exploiting the game system in order to frustrate people. The game system allows you to kill NPCs. There's nothing wrong with that per sé. But the secondary effect is that other players will not be able to take or hand in quests... The secondary effect, that becomes the main objective. So yes, you are exploiting the game in order to frustrate unwilling participants, so yes, you ARE griefing even by gamer lexocon definition.

If "most" people are using the word the wrong way, they should stop.

Provoking flags ISN'T something I was addressing from the OP.

It isn't really a grey area at all though, Blizzard allows me to kill auctioneers and NPCs of the other faction, so its not griefing by the real definition at all. Especially since you don't really know my true intent in doing so. I could be doing for RP reasons, or to try to start a battle, which are perfectly valid and fine reason to do that. If every single little thing that annoys you in the game is "harassment" or "griefing" you .. then maybe you need a reality check.. is Blizzard griefing you when the RNG gods don't favor you? Or is your ISP harassing you when you have a temporary outage? Is the weather harassing you when it snows?

This is a game with two factions, whether you are PVP or PVE. The effects of that can be felt on PVP or PVE servers. Its ingrained into the lore, the mechanics, the rules, and everything else. No, having two factions in the game isn't griefing you.

As stated elsewhere, report true harassment and get over it..

[-Superman-]

Except, that it is: https://us.battle.net/support/en/art...assment-policy

Zone or Area Disruption

This category includes language and/or actions intended to disturb groups of players or areas of the world, such as:
Disruption of player events or gatherings.
Excessive use of in-game sounds or visuals.
Excessively casting spells with noticeable effects in crowded areas.
Impeding or blocking access to an NPC, doodad, doorway, or any other area of the world that a player would normally be able to access.

And in this case, it is done with the expressed intent to trick the unwary into being flagged.

Someone else gets it too. The only people opposed to removing PvP from PvE realms would be those who get their rocks off by griefing others themself.

[Giscoicus]

Sounds like you need to take your issue to Blizzard, not to tell other people they can't have stuff because you can't level or increase reputations (pve functions) effectively while pvp'ing.

I never said others cant have stuff, but blizzard will not let PvPers be able to level at a competitive pace, do PvP for reputation rewards, and fight others under world bosses without worrying about getting attacked by the boss. It is a double standard and ridiculous, especially since it was added because of incompetence from bad players.

There are 2 options right now

-fight everything
-fight NPCs

Neither of these limits you whatsoever. The only things that take PvP to get are a couple tabards, even the PvP mounts can be gotten with Justice->honor and they dont require rep. It simply isnt fair that there isnt a "only fight players" option, and one that doesnt massively limit your character.

[-Superman-]

Except, not. Thats a post on harassment, not griefing.

Obviously loves to argue, but hates to read.

Zone or Area Disruption

Impeding or blocking access to an NPC, doodad, doorway, or any other area of the world that a player would normally be able to access.

Does this help? Or should I increase the font size.

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And like I said, why don't PvPers have the same options? Leveling via PvP is awful, can't get certain reputations up without PvE thus blocking us from crafting recipes and whatnot. You can't even get to level 10 without PvEing unless you get carried around exploring. Letting PvErs say no to any PvP from square 1 is ridiculous and they aren't offering the same opportunity to PvPers simply because somebody would get sad I can stand on my low level alt anywhere in the game as long as I'm flagged because that let's me bypass certain things.

PvP is a mini-game and needs PvE to progress. Then again, I am all for putting these things behind Conquest points on PvP realms and getting rid of PvPers for good.

[Giscoicus]

Someone else gets it too. The only people opposed to removing PvP from PvE realms would be those who get their rocks off by griefing others themself.

They are caving to support continued stupidity, and it is bullshit that the only way to do just PvP is to pay more for tournament access, and having many other parts of the game blocked entirely, other parts seriously hindered, by only PvPing. If they plan on doing the same for PvP thats one thing, but they would need to extend this to normal and RP realms as well, given that some players enjoy PvP on said realms at their discretion and not being able to fight others in the world without getting attacked by NPCs and whatnot would be unfair for them.

Now would you really like me being able to flag an alt and go anywhere I want with no chance of being attacked?

[-Superman-]

It would change things, a lot actually. I would then ask why you seriously feel "harassed" because someone killed an auctioneer? I could agree its *slightly* annoying.. but HARASSED?

You just like to be argumentative. If I have 30 minutes to fit in some game time, I should not have to waste 20 of it waiting for respawns. People do NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO IMPEDE THE GAMEPLAY OF OTHERS. Blizz has seen that which is why they are implementing this for WoD. So, this WILL happen, and world griefing WILL vanish. So honestly, nitpick and wordscramble all you like, cause they have already put in motion something LONG OVERDUE.

[Giscoicus]

PvP is a mini-game and needs PvE to progress. Then again, I am all for putting these things behind Conquest points on PvP realms and getting rid of PvPers for good.

And I actively raid normal/beginning heroic. I rolled on a NORMAL realm to flag when I want, and it is irritating getting attacked by players and NPCs, but its MY fault because I was acting dumb when I got agro from the NPCs. If you are on a PvE realm and flag its because YOU were being dumb and tab targeting blindly

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You just like to be argumentative. If I have 30 minutes to fit in some game time, I should not have to waste 20 of it waiting for respawns. People do NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO IMPEDE THE GAMEPLAY OF OTHERS. Blizz has seen that which is why they are implementing this for WoD. So, this WILL happen, and world griefing WILL vanish. So honestly, nitpick and wordscramble all you like, cause they have already put in motion something LONG OVERDUE.

then GO PLAY A SINGLE PLAYER GAME.

I think that unless they stop this bullshit I'm going to camp towns more. 1 shotting guards is fun and 2 shotting players is even more so. Goldshire better watch out

[-Superman-]

They are caving to support continued stupidity, and it is bullshit that the only way to do just PvP is to pay more for tournament access, and having many other parts of the game blocked entirely, other parts seriously hindered, by only PvPing. If they plan on doing the same for PvP thats one thing, but they would need to extend this to normal and RP realms as well, given that some players enjoy PvP on said realms at their discretion and not being able to fight others in the world without getting attacked by NPCs and whatnot would be unfair for them.

Now would you really like me being able to flag an alt and go anywhere I want with no chance of being attacked?

I don't care what they do with PvP realms. They are fixing PvE realms and that is my only concern.

[apepi]

In what scenario would I be able to kill another player without being flagged?

Say you accidentally use an aoe damage spell that would hit a low level. Or you heal someone attacking someone and you don't even get flagged yourself.

[-Superman-]

then GO PLAY A SINGLE PLAYER GAME.

I think that unless they stop this bullshit I'm going to camp towns more. 1 shotting guards is fun and 2 shotting players is even more so. Goldshire better watch out

I always knew you were like this. Personally, you can GO FLAG YOURSELF! Feel free to replace the word flag with any other F word that comes to mind.

[Deathgoose]

They are caving to support continued stupidity, and it is bullshit that the only way to do just PvP is to pay more for tournament access, and having many other parts of the game blocked entirely, other parts seriously hindered, by only PvPing. If they plan on doing the same for PvP thats one thing, but they would need to extend this to normal and RP realms as well, given that some players enjoy PvP on said realms at their discretion and not being able to fight others in the world without getting attacked by NPCs and whatnot would be unfair for them.

Now would you really like me being able to flag an alt and go anywhere I want with no chance of being attacked?

I'm not really sure what in the world you are talking about.

Really, at the core of it, disabling the ability to bluewall and possibly having beneficial spells fail to land on flagged allies on a PvE realm is the major thing here. Those are the two chief reasons for "Uh, why the hell am I flagged?" scenarios. You want to PvP on a PvE realm, you type /PvP first, and then you got it.

Anything else, including killing quest/vendor NPCs, is really tangential to the main focus of removing "inadvertently flagging".

[Giscoicus]

I don't care what they do with PvP realms. They are fixing PvE realms and that is my only concern.

I'm sorry, whats a PvE realm? I play on something called a NORMAL realm which I transferred to from a RP realm.

They are not "fixing" anything because the only problems that need to be fixed is AoE bugged flagging. I play on a NORMAL realm to PvP and PvE at my choosing, why can I not opt out of PvE with a switch so I can fight on the Isle without worrying about the tigers leaping on me or getting charged?

[Deathgoose]

Say you accidentally use an aoe damage spell that would hit a low level. Or you heal someone attacking someone and you don't even get flagged yourself.

See previous post about removing bluewalling and beneficial spells failing to land on flagged allies.

[Giscoicus]

I'm not really sure what in the world you are talking about.

Really, at the core of it, disabling the ability to bluewall and possibly having beneficial spells fail to land on flagged allies on a PvE realm is the major thing here. Those are the two chief reasons for "Uh, why the hell am I flagged?" scenarios. You want to PvP on a NORMAL realm, you type /PvP first, and then you got it.

Anything else, including killing quest/vendor NPCs, is really tangential to the main focus of removing "inadvertently flagging".

And why can I not PvP WITHOUT PvE? If I'm fighting on the Isle I dont want my Howl of Terror to agro a nearby neutral enemy. I want to be able to run up and fight at Ordos without taking damage from him. It isnt fair that they are doing this without doing the same for PvPers, who are already at a disadvantage, and those PvPing still have to pay attention and not get attacked by enemies while they are making a change because of incompetent players not paying attention and flagging.

[Puri]

If you are on a PvE realm and flag its because YOU were being dumb and tab targeting blindly

Or it was because some smart heals and AE attacks are buggy and cause you to get flagged, or because someone I healed activated PVP while I was healing, which you would have noticed if you would have read the thread.
And the switch simply prevents that from happening. So nothing changes for you, except people getting randomly flagged although they did not want to.