Why hasn't Siege been nerfed like DS and ICC?

[Zantos]

Zantos, you act as if you know it's going to happen. The sad truth is, no one really does. They didn't alter the FoS which they would've if they were planning on doing a zone-wide nerf, there's been no datamined nerf, and they said they won't be doing blanket zone nerfs to current content anymore(So we know if they're going to do a blanket nerf it would be toggled and for that it'd be datamined).

They may nerf garrosh for 10m(Considering 10m guilds have about 3x the amount of wipes as 25m's), but not 25m.

They didn't remove the mounts for ICC / DS after the nerfs either. the achievement can not be looked at as a indicator. I don't think its a absolute fact, it could still not happen. But if they follow their previous trend, then its more then likely.

[nightfalls]

You just have some insane luck getting into pugs that the majority doesn't.

"If it's not item level, it's luck" - it's anything but YOU.

They will nerf it alright, in 6.0. When the relevant achievements are removed, while the titles will still remain for those to "go back" and finish the past content. And "previous trend" is irrelevant when Blizzard has already stated they did not like their actions in the past.

[Barnabas]

Then either the OQueue pugs are a lot more relaxed and love to carry someone or they just did not care. Using the in game features and open raid, I could not find a single group to take me until 513 ilevel. Even then they planned to be carrying me despite the fact I never died and I knew the mechanics. You just have some insane luck getting into pugs that the majority doesn't.



You missed the point of this thread and my argument. I am saying it will be nerfed, and it will. They may not nerf it as bad, but they probably will. Second, I didn't say its impossible. I said you are Much more likely to get into a flex or any raid if you have high ilevel, and you are. Third, of course no one has to take you. That is the same arguement everyone makes despite the truth being they probably wont until you have high ilevel.

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Pretty much. If they don't nerf it, the casuals who want to raid it wont be able to and will leave. The normal raiders who cant get past heroic will get bored and leave after gaining no progress. If you do nerf it, everyone will be mad they did it when it was hard.

It's already been nerfed for the normal raiders so they can clear it. That was the last balance patch they did for raids. Casuals don't raid in the first place so why nerf a damn thing for them? If the group wipes once they will leave the raid anyway. They have lfr and flex to do if they want progress.

[Zantos]

"If it's not item level, it's luck" - it's anything but YOU.

This just proves to me how ignorant you are. Tell me, what other indicating factors will they have access to other then ilevels to possibly make such an assumption as to think you are bad or are good? The answer is nothing. They can look up what enchants / gems your class / spec is suggested to have, but so can you. That doesn't mean you know how to play your rotation. You got lucky because they ignored your ilevel. Usually they will take you based solely apon ilevel. They have nothing else to indicate if you are any good or not.

They will nerf it alright, in 6.0. When the relevant achievements are removed, while the titles will still remain for those to "go back" and finish the past content. And "previous trend" is irrelevant when Blizzard has already stated they did not like their actions in the past.

Did they wait to nerf ICC / DS until after the heroic mount was lowered from being 100%? No. They won't wait for a silly achievement. They also say they did or did not like a lot of things. Blizzard has a funny way of going to extremes. Who knows what they will end up doing. I just think its likely they will nerf it since they have already done targeted nerfs.

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It's already been nerfed for the normal raiders so they can clear it. That was the last balance patch they did for raids. Casuals don't raid in the first place so why nerf a damn thing for them? If the group wipes once they will leave the raid anyway. They have lfr and flex to do if they want progress.

They do, but my friends guild was casuals and they wanted normals. They gave up in ToT after not being able to get passed the fourth boss. There are some casuals that will and do want to raid normal. Even if they aren't skilled. Even more so may want to try it at the end out of sheer boredom.

[Deleted]

Does Blizz really expect people to keep running it for months and months without being able to pug it easily?
When they nerfed previous raids it worked out really well for the community. There was still heroic for the hardcore raiders to fall back on and casual players had the opportunity to pug normal.

Siege has been out for a few months now. It's not like gear or time is the reason people aren't able to progress. A nerf will help guilds that are stuck as well.

The purpose of previous nerfs was lack of LFR and flex mode so people could see the raid. If you want EASY raid, just do Flex or LFR.

I don't see the reason why should Blizz nerf SOO and allow just everyone to faceroll through it and get the Kor'kron War Wolf.

[Zantos]

The purpose of previous nerfs was lack of LFR and flex mode so people could see the raid. If you want EASY raid, just do Flex or LFR.

I don't see the reason why should Blizz nerf SOO and allow just everyone to faceroll through it and get the Kor'kron War Wolf.

Because its the end of the expansion and no one has anything else to do for the most part.

[IsrafaelMage]

Progressive nerfs are the worst thing to happen to this game and i hope that it wont come to this again. False sense of superiority always causes people to leave when they are faced with a real challenge (first tier of next addon) rather than rise to the task (same thought was iterated several times by GC himself). I saw many "6-8/8H" guilds (with 35% nerf) imploding on my server in T14 because of that.

[Deleted]

Most of the people in US servers raid 25M while EU raids 10M

And 10m is currently harder and a reason why some bosses were nerfed. Because 25m could stack cooldowns on fights like thok and so on.

[Nakiri]

Incresing ilvl Gear + Warforged (normal/hc) + 2/2 Upgrade... I think this way is much better and give more satisfation to get a boss kill then waiting a Blue Post with a "-xx% HP/DMG/... on x Boss" to get the chance/possibility to kill a boss.

[Deleted]

Because its the end of the expansion and no one has anything else to do for the most part.

Doesn't mean a squat. There are achievements like Ahead of the Curve for a reason. Nerfing it before makes them pointless to begin with. If someone can;t do normal he can just do flex. What's the purpose of doing flex difficulty normal instead of flex? Items? ego stroking? mount? There are rewards for certain things. They are there for heroic and other things.

If they nerf it now that will be a kick in the balls. And if they nerf it they better make it impossible to get "ahead of the curve" in a nerfed raid.

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Progressive nerfs are the worst thing to happen to this game and i hope that it wont come to this again. False sense of superiority always causes people to leave when they are faced with a real challenge (first tier of next addon) rather than rise to the task (same thought was iterated several times by GC himself). I saw many "6-8/8H" guilds (with 35% nerf) imploding on my server in T14 because of that.

pretty much this.

[nightfalls]

Progressive nerfs are the worst thing to happen to this game and i hope that it wont come to this again. False sense of superiority always causes people to leave when they are faced with a real challenge (first tier of next addon) rather than rise to the task (same thought was iterated several times by GC himself). I saw many "6-8/8H" guilds (with 35% nerf) imploding on my server in T14 because of that.

A very good reason to not nerf and a lesson they have learned from the past. Such nerfs give false expectations.

@ Zantos:

You can rage all you want, but I don't know what to say to you when you realize that 6.0 is coming, achievements are going away, new content isn't coming out yet, and the content hasn't been nerfed to your content.

P.S: You can continue to complain about 540 item level and rail "item level" and "lucky" but at the end of the day, no matter what "debate" this crap is, you do realize you can get 540 just from timeless gear + a couple of BoE crafted gear, and 1-2 lucky Ordos/Celestial drops, right? And while you complain and try to explain "lucky" I can continue consistently getting into runs this weekend out of pure "luck" as you say.

Maybe I should go buy lotto tickets.

[Deleted]

Well, I get where you are coming from.
In my opinion, content is tuned for the item level where it is doable, not where the most people complete it. I would not say that limit is paragon level, since they used one healer, but they could have done it with two though. Paragon used 700 wipes, so that does not seem a good basis, but people at 567+ start having 200-250 wipes, which is not that insane, so I would say that is what the boss is tuned around roughly.

Then if a majority of players kill the boss in higher item level simply because they did not put the hours in or had the skill to do so, I do not think that should affect the "tuned" item level for a boss. If 10 guilds kill a boss at 570 and 100 at 575, I would still say it is tuned for 570, even though those 100 guilds killed it at 575.
Also what needs to be remembered, a lot of the guilds that kill a boss could have killed it in far less, it is simply a matter of them having the gear they have. People that reach garrosh with 575 now could probably have killed it in 570, just that they did not put the hours into progressing to bring them to garrosh soon enough. I know we could have done it in 1-2 less item level.
This is super clear in 25 man, I dont think any single guild have killed Garrosh 25 man in the item level it was "tuned" for, since every guild that reaches it have higher item level than that.

But yeah, I guess it is a definition of what the item level a boss is tuned for should be, is it where the boss is doable, or where most people kills it? I would say the earlier. To me it does not make sense when people say stuff like "Garrosh is tuned for 575 ilvl!" when so many people did it in 7 less item level than that.

You're right that it's a definition issue and you're also right, that my own guild could have killed it with less gear - although we would have added more attempts due to RNG (We had 268 wipes btw). But we raided 6 or 7 days (only for 4-6 hours at a time though) to kill it and one could also argue, that the majority of players can't do that due to time restrictions.

I mean, there's a difference (as you say) between being able to kill it with 568 ilvl as a rather hardcore raider with more time on your hands and then as a guild who only just reached Garrosh after the nerfs to Thok, Siegecrafter aka retard boss on 10 man and Klaxxi.

In any case, we agree that it's not overtuned. Some bosses are harder on 10 man and some bosses are harder on 25 man. That's just how it is, the only thing that annoys me, is the requirements to the setup tbh.

[nightfalls]

In any case, we agree that it's not overtuned. Some bosses are harder on 10 man and some bosses are harder on 25 man. That's just how it is, the only thing that annoys me, is the requirements to the setup tbh.

10 man comp dependence though is a reason they are moving to a 20 man setup. Because after all, if you allow a poor comp, 10 heroics suddenly become faceroll for the right comp. Though, I do think the difficulty on 10 man could have been better spread out between the last 3 bosses, just like on 25 man. Instead it seems they made Siegecrafter and Paragons both a lot easier on 10 man, then took all of that difficulty and lumped it together onto Garrosh.

[Deleted]

And I am glad to see they learned from their mistakes. They have stated that they were not happy with the degree of the DS nerfs. Every idiot and their child completing DS on Heroic when it was easier than pre-nerf Normal was not a good way to finish. The AotC and CE achievements were not there in the past. They will probably be removed when the nerf hits, which will probably be 6.0 prepatch.

Non-raiding people can experience the end raid of the expansion in 6.0. Bad raiders can experience said raid on Heroic in 6.0.

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I don't know what you are talking about, but I was able to get in a normal mode and kill some bosses with ~535-540 item level and not even the legendary gem, let alone the cloak. Just because some players are bad and won't get taken to raids because they suck doesn't mean "ilvl is the end all be all of 'getting into groups.'" Nothing could be further from the truth, and those that believe that are deluded.

I have to agree with this. Saying that you "Can't do Normals due to your low ilvl" is just BS. Find a better or larger guild that does alt runs or make your own groups. This is the same old crap of players complaining about not having access to content and then blaming Blizz, when they themselves are to blame. Well them and the rest of the playerbase who set the bar for entry level.

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Then they simply don't nerf SoO as much as they did DS




Im sorry, but you are just kidding yourself. Go to open raid. Look at how many people are requesting 540ilevel+ for flex 3/4, hell even 1-2 want 535+ most of then time. Just because you got lucky and managed to get into a normal, does not mean you are anywhere close to the majority. Ilevel > all when pugging. I have recruited pugs for guild raids, I have been the pug recruited for raids. If your ilevel isn't high, you wont be looked at unless they know you personally. That is how it is for the vast majority of the player base. Even you didn't get a full clear at 540ilevel. Even if you aren't skilled but you have high ilevel, you have a greater chance of being taken in a pug over someone better but with lower ilevel. That's just how it works. You can not disagree because you got lucky. Calling anyone deluded for knowing the truth is just stupid. Heck, you can hardly get into a ToT pug now a days without decent ilevel.

Then join a freaking guild. We all know how OpenRaid and oQueue works, ilvl/ach from main or GTFO. If people still haven't learned that, I don't know what to tell you.

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And 10m is currently harder and a reason why some bosses were nerfed. Because 25m could stack cooldowns on fights like thok and so on.

False. Some fights are harder on 10 man i.e Siegecrafter and Garrosh, while Malkorok and Klaxxi are both easier.

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10 man comp dependence though is a reason they are moving to a 20 man setup. Because after all, if you allow a poor comp, 10 heroics suddenly become faceroll for the right comp. Though, I do think the difficulty on 10 man could have been better spread out between the last 3 bosses, just like on 25 man. Instead it seems they made Siegecrafter and Paragons both a lot easier on 10 man, then took all of that difficulty and lumped it together onto Garrosh.

As I just commented to the other poster saying 10 man is harder, I'll say this to you; Siegecrafter was a freaking a-hole on 10 man pre nerf and Garrosh seems harder as well - mostly due to the setup requirements. And I get that there needs to be requirements but to the extend that we see on Garrosh is just retarded imo.

[GKLeatherCraft]

It's obvious what the answer is, the flex raids and upgrading etc, There is no need, and more people will raid normal if it stays a bit more difficult.

[Hottage]

There is no requirement to blanket nerf the raids any more.

They did it in ICC because back then there was no LFR. People wanting to PUG the content have LFR and Flex to sate their needs, nerfs to normal are not required.

This coming from someone who was never expecting to kill Garrosh normal before 6.0, got lucky with a PUG last night.

[Mifuyne]

Wait, you can't even kill Garrosh normal in a pug?

[Milchshake]

They could nerf the trash and make the raid less of a drag...
Trash has been murden past few raids.

[JackWest]

Does Blizz really expect people to keep running it for months and months without being able to pug it easily?
When they nerfed previous raids it worked out really well for the community. There was still heroic for the hardcore raiders to fall back on and casual players had the opportunity to pug normal.

Siege has been out for a few months now. It's not like gear or time is the reason people aren't able to progress. A nerf will help guilds that are stuck as well.

Actually many ppl are pugging normal. On Silvermoon for example every pug is for normal, and you can't find flex there. I pugged garrosh for example. Quite smooth kill, only 1 wipe

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They are upping the current 476 ilvl weapons to 489 ilvl weapons. Nothing more then this. Will not make a lick of difference in non-LFR SoO.

As for the nerfs, the nerfs for DS and ICC did not come out for quite some time after they were released. It was a bit past the 5 month mark for DS and ICC. SoO has been out for almost, but not quite 5 months. I'm expecting the rolling nerfs to come once 5.4.7 hits, or perhaps the week after.

They are nerfing SoO with hotfixes every 2nd week, kinda. And you want bigger nerfs? go play Tetris

[Kulspruta]

Why would they nerf it? IT already has FOUR difficulty settings as it is (LFR / Flex / Norm / Heroic). If you cant manage to find one of those difficulty stages that fits you, why should they nerf an existing one just so you can feel better about "beating" content you clearly are not ready for?

This! I haven't even done a full clear on flex yet. But if they Nerf lets say normal. I would just sit back with an empty feeling of loneliness. There would be no awesomeness of beating it then. SO KEEP IT as is