Question about Shadow Priest DPS

[Alesandra]

Hey guys,

I recently resubbed to the game 2 weeks ago wanting to raid. This week, I was in on my new guild's farming night on Tuesday and picked up a lot of heroic pieces, however my DPS is still fairly weak compared to what I'd like it to be. I'm sure I know the general reason why I'm so far behind still despite receiving all that gear, but would like some more opinions from you guys. Here is my armory:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...esandra/simple

According to my friends, missing the legendary cloak, the meta, and good DPS trinkets account for a lot of my missing DPS. I was wondering though that once I acquire these, what is the approximate amount of DPS that would be boosted by this? 30-40k? More?

Here is a log of a flexible Siege of Orgrimmar raid I did yesterday where most of the DPS hovered between 545-555 item level:

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/q3r82opqxz77h5b5/

Thanks for any help you can give!

[Larynx]

Well, I just did a very cursory look over your logs. I looked at Juggernaut specifically. Your DoT uptime is 95%+, which is good (always aim to be 99%!). You had an optimal number of Halos, with a good average hit for them. Your Insanity uptime was slightly lower than your DP uptime which I'll assume is for Mind Blasts. The only thing, again from a very brief look, was that you had 23 Mind Blasts, and the fight allowed for 30.

Something to consider right now, you don't have the cloak nor the legendary. You also play a SPriest. You're going to be bottom DPS in most scenarios vs equal people. SPriests are very low DPS right now, I believe the bottom ranged class. The Cloak and Legendary are a huge part of your DPS, upwards of probably 40-80k or more.

Anyways, there's nothing very obviously wrong with your Juggernaut kill. Congratulations. Remember to snap shot your DoTs with buffs and yada yada.

If you need help with very general topics, check out http://www.icy-veins.com/shadow-prie...-pve-dps-guide

Usually most information is accurate, though if something seems off remember that it may be out of date. A lot of that guide hasn't been updated since ToT, though a few sections were updated in January.

Oh also, you have 25% hit. Are you logged out in healer gear? The cap for casters is only 15%.

[Saphyron]

Oh also, you have 25% hit. Are you logged out in healer gear? The cap for casters is only 15%.

seems not he has reforged hit and spirit away from all pieces he has. he just has too much of it.

[Deleted]

To answer question about gear. Yes, legendaries will help a lot, and trinket and better weapon even more.

Cloak procs is averaging around 5% dps.
Meta gem is 30% haste with 20-25% uptime.. thus more than 5% gain.

Aim for replacing that healers trinket and weapon primarily, these should give you over 30k dps. And these 2 legandaries will count as 10-15% dps boost.

[Alesandra]

Hey thanks for the reply!

I think the reason I have so much hit % is because I have several slots of mine that have spirit on them. I was gearing towards being a healer since I've always healed in PvE but this time the guild I applied to wanted a shadow priest so I didn't really object to playing a different role. With my upgrades that I received, several of them are healer pieces that I am using as DPS at the moment quite simply because they're heroic loot and were huge upgrades compared to what I had before. Any spirit that I have on my gear I'm trying to reforge off but I'm sure that doesn't reduce it enough at the moment.

I have been slightly conflicted about things at times though in terms of priorities. I double checked the page you linked me although I had read it before just to see what the priorities are. I'm assuming even if you have Insanity available, you should still be using Mind Blast if it's off cooldown? I wasn't always sure which to prioritize in that case, but I suppose Mind Blast is always priority since it generates a shadow orb. Also, I'm assuming you should always prioritize DOT uptime like you mentioned instead of casting Insanity while that DP's last few precious seconds are ticking away.

Yeah I have heard from people that Shadow Priests are low on DPS at the moment, however on the Aurora SPriest PvE videos I watched, that priest was usually top of the meters although I suppose it's because some of those fights have AOE/multi-dotting available?

I posted this thread because I felt very discouraged from the low DPS I was outputting, I know I'm probably being hard on myself missing some very important pieces of gear, but it's hard not to feel disappointed when someone with the same item level is outputting so much more damage!

- - - Updated - - -

To answer question about gear. Yes, legendaries will help a lot, and trinket and better weapon even more.

Cloak procs is averaging around 5% dps.
Meta gem is 30% haste with 20-25% uptime.. thus more than 5% gain.

Aim for replacing that healers trinket and weapon primarily, these should give you over 30k dps. And these 2 legandaries will count as 10-15% dps boost.

Thanks for the clarification.

I never played DPS too much in raiding aside from a Balance Druid in heroics before Firelands was released so I wasn't always too sure how much certain slots boosted DPS much. Those numbers really help give me the sense of how much of a disadvantage I am at though. I'm still currently only on the valor stage unfortunately so I have many weeks to go until I'm able to obtain it, sucks!

[Larynx]

I believe SPs follow a very simple priority for ability usage.

DP if 3 orbs
Mind Blast
Insanity
Vampiric Touch
Shadow Word: Pain
Level 90 Talent
Mind Flay

I may be forgetting some, since I don't play a SP. But Mind Blast > All. I've tried to do research for an optimal 3 orb SPriest opener, but found nothing useful. I think that Insanity is more important than your DoTs, but you can always test it yourself on a dummy. Do a one minute test, one with a 3 orb opener using:

DP -> MB -> Insanity -> MB -> DoTs (don't use your level 90 talent here at all) -> Flay

then another 3 orb one minute test using:

DP -> MB -> DoTs -> Insanity -> MB -> Insanity -> Flay (no level 90 talent again)

See which does more total damage. You could also just do napkin math, but where's the fun in that?

For stat priorities, I believe it goes like this:

15% hit > ~18k haste > mastery (with 2pc) > crit/mastery (without 2pc -> haste above 18k

I may have swapped the 2pc priorities. It might be crit > mastery with 2pc. Like I said, this is all from memory since I don't actually play a SPriest. Hope I helped at least somehow though.

[Shahad]

Shadow Word: Pain and Vampiric Touch are lower priority, but Mind Blast and Shadow Word: Death are higher than Mind Flay Insanity. Essentially, if it doesn't generate a shadow orb, it's below Insanity.

Also, what shifts the stat priority isn't so much the 4pc as it is the 2pc. The 2pc increases the shadowy recall crit damage bonus by 40%, which makes crit more valuable. Otherwise mastery would win out because of it's effect on Insanity, but as it is, this is the priority: Int > Spell Power > Hit (to 15%) > Haste (to GCD Cap, 18,215) > Crit = Mastery > Haste. But the difference between keeping mastery and crit balanced or favoring one more than the other is minimal anyway, so you can do pretty much whatever the hell you want.

[Alesandra]

I believe SPs follow a very simple priority for ability usage.

DP if 3 orbs
Mind Blast
Insanity
Vampiric Touch
Shadow Word: Pain
Level 90 Talent
Mind Flay

I may be forgetting some, since I don't play a SP. But Mind Blast > All. I've tried to do research for an optimal 3 orb SPriest opener, but found nothing useful. I think that Insanity is more important than your DoTs, but you can always test it yourself on a dummy. Do a one minute test, one with a 3 orb opener using:

DP -> MB -> Insanity -> MB -> DoTs (don't use your level 90 talent here at all) -> Flay

then another 3 orb one minute test using:

DP -> MB -> DoTs -> Insanity -> MB -> Insanity -> Flay (no level 90 talent again)

See which does more total damage. You could also just do napkin math, but where's the fun in that?

For stat priorities, I believe it goes like this:

15% hit > ~18k haste > mastery (with 4pc) > crit/mastery (without 4pc -> haste above 18k

I may have swapped the 4pc priorities. It might be crit > mastery with 4pc. Like I said, this is all from memory since I don't actually play a SPriest. Hope I helped at least somehow though.

Yes you definitely helped! I'll probably try out the DPS test you mentioned today when I get home. Icy Veins specifies third priority is Crit = Mastery or something of the sort, so I'll aim for that which is why I've been reforging to Crit when there's already Haste on the item. Also I was thinking lacking 2 piece or 4 piece probably also hinders some of my potential DPS as well.

[Larynx]

Shadow Word: Pain and Vampiric Touch are lower priority, but Mind Blast and Shadow Word: Death are higher than Mind Flay Insanity. Essentially, if it doesn't generate a shadow orb, it's below Insanity.

Also, what shifts the stat priority isn't so much the 4pc as it is the 2pc. The 2pc increases the shadowy recall crit damage bonus by 40%, which makes crit more valuable. Otherwise mastery would win out, but as it is, this is the priority: Int > Spell Power > Hit (to 15%) > Haste (to GCD Cap, 18,215) > Crit = Mastery > Haste. But the difference between keeping mastery and crit balanced or favoring one more than the other is minimal anyway, so you can do pretty much whatever the hell you want.

Sorry, I mixed the two up. I thought the crit bonus was 4pc.

[Shahad]

Sorry, I mixed the two up. I thought the crit bonus was 4pc.

It's fine lol. I didn't know what the shadow tier bonuses were until I got my first tier piece after rerolling shadow two weeks ago.

[Alesandra]

Shadow Word: Pain and Vampiric Touch are lower priority, but Mind Blast and Shadow Word: Death are higher than Mind Flay Insanity. Essentially, if it doesn't generate a shadow orb, it's below Insanity.

Also, what shifts the stat priority isn't so much the 4pc as it is the 2pc. The 2pc increases the shadowy recall crit damage bonus by 40%, which makes crit more valuable. Otherwise mastery would win out because of it's effect on Insanity, but as it is, this is the priority: Int > Spell Power > Hit (to 15%) > Haste (to GCD Cap, 18,215) > Crit = Mastery > Haste. But the difference between keeping mastery and crit balanced or favoring one more than the other is minimal anyway, so you can do pretty much whatever the hell you want.

Thanks so much for the clarification. For some reason I figured since DOTs are doing damage while you're busy casting other things, keeping them up despite having Insanity would be ideal, however the 10% damage increase is probably too good to have that as a lower priority than DOTs. Sometimes I find myself with Mind Flay ending maybe 0.5-1 seconds before Mind Blast ends. Should I just spam for one tick of Flay before Mind Blast or just wait to Mind Blast immediately when the cooldown is up?

[Shahad]

Thanks so much for the clarification. For some reason I figured since DOTs are doing damage while you're busy casting other things, keeping them up despite having Insanity would be ideal, however the 10% damage increase is probably too good to have that as a lower priority than DOTs. Sometimes I find myself with Mind Flay ending maybe 0.5-1 seconds before Mind Blast ends. Should I just spam for one tick of Flay before Mind Blast or just wait to Mind Blast immediately when the cooldown is up?

If it wasn't for the very short opportunity window and the stupidly high damage of Insanity, dots would probably be worth refreshing. As it is, you just gotta plan ahead when you get your second orb and make sure your dots have a long enough duration. I just refresh them if they're under 10-12 seconds when that last Mind Blast comes off CD really. As for having a GCD free between Mind Flay and Mind Blast's CD, I would typically use that opportunity to move or cast a shield/fade/renew (dead dps do 0 dps) if appropriate. Or refresh Shadow Word: Pain if it's needed. If none of that apply, I would Mind Flay if the first tick and the GCD happen before or at the same time as Mind Blast being available. If the wait time is less than a GCD, I wouldn't bother.

[Alesandra]

If it wasn't for the very short opportunity window and the stupidly high damage of Insanity, dots would probably be worth refreshing. As it is, you just gotta plan ahead when you get your second orb and make sure your dots have a long enough duration. I just refresh them if they're under 10-12 seconds when that last Mind Blast comes off CD really. As for having a GCD free between Mind Flay and Mind Blast's CD, I would typically use that opportunity to move or cast a shield/fade/renew (dead dps do 0 dps) if appropriate. Or refresh Shadow Word: Pain if it's needed. If none of that apply, I would Mind Flay if the first tick and the GCD happen before or at the same time as Mind Blast being available. If the wait time is less than a GCD, I wouldn't bother.

Yeah I've been refreshing my dots a lot lately in anticipating for DP way before they're about to run out and it feels really weird to me. From what I remember you never wanted to refresh your dots that early in the past and if you did it wasn't a good choice, unless I remembered things incorrectly. I've actually been trying to use POM more during moving or free GCDs to help out with some minor healing. I always reserve PW:S for the movement boost which is great although sometimes I also wonder if I should avoid doing that so the Disc priests can provide me with a stronger shield.

[Shahad]

Yeah I've been refreshing my dots a lot lately in anticipating for DP way before they're about to run out and it feels really weird to me. From what I remember you never wanted to refresh your dots that early in the past and if you did it wasn't a good choice, unless I remembered things incorrectly. I've actually been trying to use POM more during moving or free GCDs to help out with some minor healing. I always reserve PW:S for the movement boost which is great although sometimes I also wonder if I should avoid doing that so the Disc priests can provide me with a stronger shield.

You really need to think of it in terms of opportunity costs. Refreshing early before a DP costs you, what? A couple of regular Mind Flay ticks? But your dots don't fall off during insanity, and they do a lot of damage. Insanity is just that big of a game changer from the Cata (and even early MoP) days.
PoM works too. Anything so that GCD isn't completely wasted is good really. And yeah, if you use Body and Soul, keep your shield for movement. But don't worry too much about your Disc priest, chances are you are he wasn't going to PW:S you. Gotta smite that boss, you know? And if he gets a LMG proc, he'll probably use it on one of the dps that have a habit of standing in the fire (that shouldn't be you) or someone who's tanking something (that REALLY shouldn't be you).

[Alesandra]

You really need to think of it in terms of opportunity costs. Refreshing early before a DP costs you, what? A couple of regular Mind Flay ticks? But your dots don't fall off during insanity, and they do a lot of damage. Insanity is just that big of a game changer from the Cata (and even early MoP) days.
PoM works too. Anything so that GCD isn't completely wasted is good really. And yeah, if you use Body and Soul, keep your shield for movement. But don't worry too much about your Disc priest, chances are you are he wasn't going to PW:S you. Gotta smite that boss, you know? And if he gets a LMG proc, he'll probably use it on one of the dps that have a habit of standing in the fire (that shouldn't be you) or someone who's tanking something (that REALLY shouldn't be you).

Haha yeah you bring up some excellent points. Thanks so much for your help! For a while I was worried I was prioritizing cooldowns incorrectly but I think I've been okay, but now I definitely have a solid understanding of priorities between Death, MB, and Insanity.