The fifth, yet unnamed Old god. Creator of trolls?

[Gothicshark]

False. Taurens come from a certain bull ancient, which I theorize as Niuzao.

Speculated by Brann in game. Not proven yet. Also we do not know the history of the Ancients, it is highly possible the Titans made them, or at least empowered them, which is what they did with Proto Drakes.

[Aquamonkey]

Speculated by Brann in game. Not proven yet. Also we do not know the history of the Ancients, it is highly possible the Titans made them, or at least empowered them, which is what they did with Proto Drakes.

Titans didn't make the Ancients. They came from Azeroth itself.

The dragons had been empowered by the titans, but Azeroth itself gave rise to spirits and demigods, creatures eternal in nature yet capable of ultimate sacrifice.
--Wolfheart, p. 33

[Gothicshark]

Titans didn't make the Ancients. They came from Azeroth itself.

The dragons had been empowered by the titans, but Azeroth itself gave rise to spirits and demigods, creatures eternal in nature yet capable of ultimate sacrifice.
--Wolfheart, p. 33

Richard A. Knaak doesn't write Lore, he writes an interpretation of game lore, so much of his early Warcraft writing has been invalidated already. So to quote a book as the lore of the game is to not understand that the Lore of the game is not tied to the books, unless the game designers like it. Otherwise the Warcraft RPG book, and all of Knaaks early books would still be valid lore sources, they are not.

Already in Pandaria it has been more than clearly hinted that Some of the Demi-Gods and ancients are "keepers" which are of Titan design. The Flying Serpents are specifically Titan Creations, which means the 4 Celestials which are Panderan Ancients/Demi-Gods are in fact Titan Creations, and Guardians of the Land.

4 Celestials
-Chi Ji the Red Crane
-Niuzao the Black Ox
-Xuen the White Tiger
-Yu'lon the Jade Serpent

proof they are of Titan Origin, Elegon. Also the dialog through out the August Celestial Rep grind makes it certain they are of Titan origin.

Since the " spirits and demigods, creatures eternal" are the same sort of thing as the 4 Celestials, it would lead me to believe they are similar. As such a great many of them can easily be of Titan origin.

[Kaleredar]

True, the thing is with the Jinyu they are a complete reskin and they do not look like Night Elves. Qiraji look like Night Elves with added insects parts. They are not even subtly differant, it looks more like Qiraji are night elves wearing bug bits.

They look like humanoid insects. That's it. The female qiraji look no more like female night elves than they do like female humans or female draenei.

Trolls were not around before the Titans, that is a misunderstanding of what is said.

Yes. Yes they were. Sources in WoW itself have stated that, in fact. "The trolls remembered when the travelers first came." I'd like to see one source you can present that definitively states that the Titans 1) created the trolls or 2) that they were indeed around before the trolls were.

Azeroth was made by the Titans, however when the Titans finally settled on Azeroth they found that corruption had settled Azeroth. ie the Old Gods.

And again, ALL lore has said that the titans FOUND Azeroth. There is absolutely no reason to believe the titans themselves "made" Azeroth.

We have no idea what the time scale if and have very few bits of dialog in game. What is clear ALL player races are descended from Titan Creations. Which means Trolls do not Predate Titans, and if there is a link to Qiraji and Night Elves, it is possible that the Qiraji are a corruption of Night Elves. After all 2k years ago when the AQ first attacked, that land was Night Elf Territory, and the bugs over ran several night elf communities. ie the Twins might be former Night Elves.

That's not clear at all. We've no evidence that Orcs, Draenei, Trolls, and, subsequently, Blood Elves and Night elves, were created by titans. Pandaren and Tauren would, at most, have been indirectly created by ancients who were created by the titans. It has been stated that the Aqir were around before the titans as well.

Major clues that the Titans made all player Races:

Elegon- Touch of the Titans- Contact with the Energy Vortex transforms the target into celestial form, increasing all damage done by 50% and healing done by 50%. Pets get the bonus but are not transformed.

What the hell does that have to do with anything? It's easier to make a generic humanoid celestial model than it is to make a generic "pet" celestial model. And hey, if the Titans "made" azeroth, than theoretically the pets would have been transformed too, because they would have been made by them

Paragons of the Klaxxi - "Come, children of the Titans, you face the Paragons."

A catch-all term to refer to the players as a whole.

this picture is a big clue.
From Ulduar in an area showing various creations of the Titans.

You've no evidence that those show that the titans "created" those creatures. They're literally just pretty statues.

And moreover, the Titans didn't create the night elves. In fact, the Night elves weren't even around when the titans left no matter how you slice it. So something must have added those sculptures later.

[Gothicshark]

And moreover, the Titans didn't create the night elves. In fact, the Night elves weren't even around when the titans left no matter how you slice it. So something must have added those sculptures later.

In game book of lore.

The Titans and the Shaping of the Universe

No one knows exactly how the universe began. Some theorize that a catastrophic cosmic explosion sent the infinite worlds spinning out into the vastness of the Great Dark - worlds that would one day bear life forms of wondrous and terrible diversity. Others believe that the universe was created as a whole by a single all-powerful entity. Though the exact origins of the chaotic universe remain uncertain, it is clear that a race of powerful beings arose to bring stability to the various worlds and ensure a safe future for the beings that would follow in their footsteps.

The Titans, colossal, metallic-skinned gods from the far reaches of the cosmos, explored the newborn universe and set to work on the worlds they encountered. They shaped the worlds by raising mighty mountains and dredging out vast seas. They breathed skies and raging atmospheres into being. It was all part of their unfathomable, far-sighted plan to create order out of chaos. They even empowered primitive races to tend to their works and maintain the integrity of their respective worlds.

Ruled by an elite sect known as the Pantheon, the Titans brought order to a hundred million worlds scattered throughout the Great Dark Beyond during the first ages of creation. The benevolent Pantheon, which sought to safeguard these structured worlds, was ever vigilant against the threat of attack from the vile extra-dimensional entities of the Twisting Nether. The Nether, an ethereal dimension of chaotic magics that connected the myriad worlds of the universe, was home to an infinite number of malefic, demonic beings who sought only to destroy life and devour the energies of the living universe. Unable to conceive of evil or wickedness in any form, the Titans struggled to find a way to end the demons' constant threat.

Basically the implication is Life was brought to Azeroth by the Titans, then they left and came back at a more recent time, when they found the Old Gods and Elemental Lords, quickly the Titans did their best to reorder the world. And then left.

The implication is all life is either of Titan or Old God Origin. Since the Old Gods favored Insects and Flesh Beasts, and the Titans favored Humanoid forms it would be safe to assume anything humanoid is actually Titan origin. Anything Insectiod is Old God.

So this means the Humanoid insects of AQ are probably perverted Night Elves.

It also means that Trolls, in their most primitive form are probably made to be living residents and caretakers of the planet based on a Titan design. This would be when the Planet was first seeded with life, prior to when the old gods came to Azeroth, and prior to when the Titans settled on Azeroth. Since from the language use in various Raids, it seems that the old gods are not native to Azeroth.

[Aquamonkey]

Richard A. Knaak doesn't write Lore, he writes an interpretation of game lore, so much of his early Warcraft writing has been invalidated already. So to quote a book as the lore of the game is to not understand that the Lore of the game is not tied to the books, unless the game designers like it. Otherwise the Warcraft RPG book, and all of Knaaks early books would still be valid lore sources, they are not.

Already in Pandaria it has been more than clearly hinted that Some of the Demi-Gods and ancients are "keepers" which are of Titan design. The Flying Serpents are specifically Titan Creations, which means the 4 Celestials which are Panderan Ancients/Demi-Gods are in fact Titan Creations, and Guardians of the Land.

4 Celestials
-Chi Ji the Red Crane
-Niuzao the Black Ox
-Xuen the White Tiger
-Yu'lon the Jade Serpent

proof they are of Titan Origin, Elegon. Also the dialog through out the August Celestial Rep grind makes it certain they are of Titan origin.

Since the " spirits and demigods, creatures eternal" are the same sort of thing as the 4 Celestials, it would lead me to believe they are similar. As such a great many of them can easily be of Titan origin.

Everything released by Blizzard is canon except the RPG books. Things are canon until they are retconned. You can't dismiss an entire novel just because you don't like Knaak.

Constellation versions of things in Titan facilities doesn't mean jack shit. The Blizz devs admitted that there is no lore behind that stuff. They just put it in because they looked cool.

What's with celestial dragons? They're not celestials. They're not dragons. They show up in Throne, Ulduar, and Mogu'shan Vaults. What's going on there?
DK: What are celestial dragons? I think the Titans were involved and they were doing something. I don't think we have any official lore or official story about the celestial dragons. They were tools that the Titans were using. Honestly, primarily, they just look really bitchen. Kind of the main reason they're there. (Source)

The extent of them being involved with the Titans only goes so far as the constructs that exist in the Titan facilities. There's a celestial elf in Ulduar; elves arose after the Titans left.

[Kaleredar]

In game book of lore.

You've literally proved nothing with that. The "single all powerful entity" they're describing would be the de facto omnipotent "God" of the warcraft universe, not the titans. Note the singular "entity."

Everything in that in-game book states that the titans went around touching up worlds they found or happened across. Not that they "created them out of nothingness."

"Bring stability to the various worlds"- Note the the there. As in, worlds that already existed. Not "their" various worlds. The various worlds existed out in space. The titans went around to them.

"They shaped the worlds-" again, note the the. As in, they found a world, they dropped down, they terraformed it as they saw fit.

"Brought order to a hundred million worlds scattered throughout the great dark beyond-" Again, these worlds already existed. They were "ordering" them. There's absolutely no reason to believe Azeroth is some exception to that.


You'd have done yourself better by quoting Algalon's "I have seen entire planetary systems born and raised in the time it takes your mortal hearts to beat once," because that at least implies that the Titans have the ability to create planets. But even that says nothing about Azeroth itself.

[Kokolums]

I've always been curious about what the hell Elune actually is too. An old god? a Loa? Did she used to hang out with the old gods back before the titans came?

Suffice it to say Elune is vastly more powerful than any other being in the known Warcraft universe.

The best measure of her power that we have is that:

1. Elune raised a simple raven to a level of a demigoddess by creating Aviana.
2. Aviana's body was pierced by demons during the War of the Ancients. ANY demon that came into contact with her blood were immediately PURIFIED of all demonic taint.

So the simple blood of a creature raised by Elune was more powerful than Sargeras' influence and power. It freaking purified demons. Nothing else could do that. Just imagine if Elune EVER directly intervened. I imagine it would be something like Broxigar attacking Sargeras, except Sargeras is in Broxigar's role and Elune is in Sargeras' role in terms of relative power. Sargeras couldn't but scratch her maybe.

Elune is way way WAY beyond a simple old god or loa. No old god or loa could purify demons.

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The Reorigination is a last ditch effort to clean up the corruption. That doesn't prove they aren't friendly. It proves they are smart to implement something like that when a planet has 5 of some of the most powerful and evil beings contained in it.

What bothers me about Titan lore is that any race of beings powerful enough to wipe a planet and reshape everything would find it vastly easier to just destroy the planet and rebuild it from scratch. Therefore, the excuse that removing the Old Gods would "kill the host" makes no sense. They could pull various lifeforms off the planet for a moment, destroy Azeroth utterly, and then rebuild it sans Old Gods and put the lifeforms back.

Its like Blizzard is trying to get me to believe that Titans are stuck in some evolutionary sweet spot where they can completely terraform a planet but cannot destroy and rebuild a planet. It just doesn't make sense. Even IF they were in that sweet spot at one time, they would not stay there. They would quickly advance to the point where they could build planets, solar systems, dyson spheres, etc.

[Deleted]

We will see where blizzard goes with it, I don't think they have actually figured out what old gods are yet themselves. I don't remember them existing in Warcraft at all until WoW, when C'thun was introduced as a plot device behind AQ. Sometime in the development of WotLK they decided Old Gods were a thing, starting hints that there was a group of them. Before then I think C'thun was supposed to be more or less along the same line as the Darkshore corpse, Haakar, some of the really big skeletons, and other stuff that was put in to show how messed up Azeroth used to be.

To be honest I am not too confident in my timeline, does anyone remember when Old Gods starting being referred to as a plural, rather than C'thun being just an "Old God" in the literal sense?

Well you are wrong.

You meet a lot of faceless ones in a specific place in the game(wont spoil it) and one of them very much looks like an old god(one of, if no the coolest fight in wc3).

Lore existed back then aswell, and if you read the manual they talk about 5 old gods.

[Aquamonkey]

The best measure of her power that we have is that:

1. Elune raised a simple raven to a level of a demigoddess by creating Aviana.

That's from the RPG, it's not canon.

2. Aviana's body was pierced by demons during the War of the Ancients. ANY demon that came into contact with her blood were immediately PURIFIED of all demonic taint.

So the simple blood of a creature raised by Elune was more powerful than Sargeras' influence and power. It freaking purified demons. Nothing else could do that.

This is wrong. Aviana's blood didn't purify the demons, it infested them. They ripped themselves apart trying to get the blood off themselves.

But even the blood of the demigoddess fought for her, dripping down the lances of her slayers and pouring onto their hands. As she fell, lifeless, her assassins tore at their own hides, her blessed blood now infesting their unholy bodies. In the end, the Doomguard died to a one, rending themselves to pieces trying to escape what they could not.
--The Sundering, p. 351

[Nuditea]

True, the thing is with the Jinyu they are a complete reskin and they do not look like Night Elves. Qiraji look like Night Elves with added insects parts. They are not even subtly differant, it looks more like Qiraji are night elves wearing bug bits.

And to make things clear that back then the Blizzard Dev team used skeletons from player races to make many of the other races, to include early Goblins were a skin over the Dwarf skeleton. No one has ever though that Goblins and Dwarves were related, because the re-skin job made goblins look like Goblins.

The Jinyu do not look like Night Elves, the Goblins do not look like Dwarves, but the Qiraji look like Night Elves.

I don't even know why I'm arguing this since as I said there are three plausible theories for the Origin of Trolls, Night Elves, and Goblins. the AQ theory is not even my favorite one, but it needs to be pointed out because it is just as plausible as any other.

Also many of the 'Lore' statements you have said to be true do not come from the game.

Trolls were not around before the Titans, that is a misunderstanding of what is said.

Azeroth was made by the Titans, however when the Titans finally settled on Azeroth they found that corruption had settled Azeroth. ie the Old Gods.

We have no idea what the time scale if and have very few bits of dialog in game. What is clear ALL player races are descended from Titan Creations. Which means Trolls do not Predate Titans, and if there is a link to Qiraji and Night Elves, it is possible that the Qiraji are a corruption of Night Elves. After all 2k years ago when the AQ first attacked, that land was Night Elf Territory, and the bugs over ran several night elf communities. ie the Twins might be former Night Elves.

Major clues that the Titans made all player Races:

Elegon- Touch of the Titans- Contact with the Energy Vortex transforms the target into celestial form, increasing all damage done by 50% and healing done by 50%. Pets get the bonus but are not transformed. .
Paragons of the Klaxxi - "Come, children of the Titans, you face the Paragons."


this picture is a big clue.
From Ulduar in an area showing various creations of the Titans.



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It also implies that the Mogu Modified what they were, much like the other races they enslaved, Blizzard has hinted that Pandaren started out as Furbolg.

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You both have a piece of the truth and fail to acknowledge that the lore is actually complex.

Pandaren were reshaped into slaves by the Mogu, because the Mogu reshaped all 'inferior races' to make them better servants.

So in this the Pandaren as we know them today are created by the Mogu.

However the race that became the Pandaren existed long before the reshaping of Pandaria, long before the Mogu Empire. It has been said by Dev team members that they use to be Furbolg, which are very similar to Pandaren only they are very primitive. Although they do like Beer. Ironic that back in Vanilla Furbolg had Beer, and now Pandaren are great Brewmasters.

I don't know why you're trying to argue against Night Elf origins. They evolved from Trolls and the Well of Eternity was their catalyst. This has been said numerous times before, as well as shown as fact. Why continue that argument?

Is it that you role-play a Night Elf and secretly just hate that Trolls really are your ancestors, because it seems quite stupid to disagree with the factual evidence shown before you.

[Traveler Voltin]

all land is troll land.

[Proskill]

the old god who created the trolls. his name: trol'olol

omg. i had a giggle mate.

[Gothicshark]

I don't know why you're trying to argue against Night Elf origins. They evolved from Trolls and the Well of Eternity was their catalyst. This has been said numerous times before, as well as shown as fact. Why continue that argument?

Is it that you role-play a Night Elf and secretly just hate that Trolls really are your ancestors, because it seems quite stupid to disagree with the factual evidence shown before you.

I'm not arguing that at all, I'm stating that in game their is a lot of room for more complex origins for Trolls, Night Elves, and Goblins, I am sure all three races came from a common Ancestor. I am fairly certain that the Common Ancestor was a Type of troll. To me I think the First Troll was caused when the Mogu were effected by the Curse of flesh, ie Mogu are the missing Progenitor of the Troll. Most of the clues are there to make that the most plausible origin.

However there are just as many clues in game that the common belief that trolls came first is not the only way. In the WC3 source book Night Elves predate Trolls. In Branns theory he believes Trolls existed before The titans set up camp. Metzen in an interview jokingly said Trolls came first. Trolls call Titans Wanderers, and other things which implies they have a different perspective on ancient history.

A faceless one remembers the day Goblins were created. Which goes back to my theory that Goblins came from trolls.

So no, you are completely mis-reading my posts and failing to see that I am just trying to point out there are many possible origins, and the blind acceptance of one idea can lead to disappointment if Blizzard makes new lore in any way different than what you know.

The fact that there is a Night Elf and Troll model in a Titan raid, in the room showing all the Titan creations, means they can do things different than expected. So far only Brann has theories as to the Origin of Night Elves and Trolls, so far he was wrong about the Origin of Humans. (in vanilla he thought they came from STV apes.)