[Mage] Anyone else sick and tired of the 90 talents?

[nightfalls]

And sadly, Blizzard are against you.

Completely faulty logic, not that you'd understand.

IW is the way it is because in some specific situations (when you can make use of the activated effect) it can be better than the other two. Its passive effect has gone straight along developers' own lines that Active effects that require work should generally be superior to Passive effects.

Think the old Glyph of Inquisition, developers had to give countless "explanations" before they finally gave up and removed it once it was absolutely nailed clear that nobody used it. Think of the old Glyph of Dark Soul where they said it was "good for people who didn't know how to manage cooldowns" before they gave up and removed that too.

The reason IW is not buffed or completely replaced is because in specific situations (largely PvP) it is better. As far as I know, no PvE mage seriously uses it.

[Orrin]

The reason IW is not buffed or completely replaced is because in specific situations (largely PvP) it is better. As far as I know, no PvE mage seriously uses it.

IW was actually nerfed because it's used solely for PvP and it was too strong and was used for easy burst. In it's previous state it could copete with Invo and RoP in PvE, right now it's useless.

[mistahwilshire]

Level 90 talents are whats preventing me from running a Mage as a primary alt. I absolutely despise "keep X buff up to do the amount of damage you should do anyway" mechanics. Like Ret Pally Inquisition. It's just clunky when the refresh is around a minute.

[nightfalls]

Level 90 talents are whats preventing me from running a Mage as a primary alt. I absolutely despise "keep X buff up to do the amount of damage you should do anyway" mechanics. Like Ret Pally Inquisition. It's just clunky when the refresh is around a minute.

My opinion is that even if those buffs exist they should be introduced relatively early and as a baseline or low-level talent. It's really depressing when that is your max level talent.

[Terahertz]

The level 90 talents are perfectly fine. They add something to the rotation and with the duration/cast time, they are hardly a "burden". Not many classes have a straight damage amplifying talent, so it could be much worse as well. Having to plan your movements around Rune, when you want to evo to lose the least damage, or when/if IW is useful on a fight is part of what makes Mage the slightest bit of fun. Just because using a 1.2 second ability every minute on your 3rd alt is annoying to you doesn't mean it should be taken out of the game. People that want a more complex rotation and enjoy min/max'ing every aspect of the game actually have fun making the most out of these abilities and instead of whining about them. You should give this a try as well, try to see things on the positive side, being negative isn't going to do anything but make your gaming experience much less enjoyable. Good luck!

It's not as much about the difficulty of the rotation, it's about the level 90 talents adding nothing to the mage class besides being a burden and in general being not fun to use. What's fun about having to evocate once ever minute? Or being a turret standing still? Or having to take damage in order to do more damage? Nothing.

[mrgreenthump]

Or being a turret standing still?

That's actually a valid gameplay option if it's done right(Arcane before MoP), it rewards people who can position themselves well and move less than others.. RoP just fails pretty hard at it. RoP really is a good concept, but you having to recast it over and over again is really bad design in the current state of WoW. Having a talent that would decrease your damage while moving, but increase it while standing still would be much better option to enhance that kind of gameplay.

[nightfalls]

That's actually a valid gameplay option if it's done right(Arcane before MoP), it rewards people who can position themselves well and move less than others.. RoP just fails pretty hard at it. RoP really is a good concept, but you having to recast it over and over again is really bad design in the current state of WoW. Having a talent that would decrease your damage while moving, but increase it while standing still would be much better option to enhance that kind of gameplay.

I miss when you had a few instants (not many, but a few) and had a turret style that was viable, with knowing when to use your instants (and proc'ced instants) being actually key to being "good." Not a "damned if you do, damned if you don't everything's a cast" style, nor an "everything is instant and/or cast-while-moving freebie" style.

[Deleted]

If the level 90 talents were short term buffs you could plan around for burst periods of a fight - they would be terrific. Know that Mark of Anguish is about to come out, so you evocate to have your buff up for the short period of time? Adds to the skill cap without being painful. Same thing with rune - in fact, run would be amazing this way ... trading short term mobility for burst. Put them on 3 minute timers with say ... 20 secs of buff.

As they are right now, they are simply miserable and if they are not changed I won't be playing a mage in WoD.

[ssjgohan4life]

I believe everyone should be entitled to an opinion on the talents, no matter the level they play a mage at. That being said there is far too much hate on the talents from people who do not understand them or how they are used in a raid setting.

You say that IW is the optimal talent most of the time, if you read and understood the tooltip you would see that it has more time spent casting per minute than invocation (2 globals every 24 seconds to invocations approx 2 sec or less cast time per minute) as well as yhe down time while the shield is being broken in which you have 0 buff, no passive, no active and a higher chance for error than the other talents. People in the community have put hours upon hours of testing and theorycrafting into these talents and shown that Invo is just better. Which brings me to my next point that Invo is not what you obviously take over anything else as arcane, in fact it is the only choice considered non viable to at least some degree.

I love these talents, especially RoP, I thonk they are fairly well designed especially after the QoL fixes throughout the xpac. I understand that they are not well recieved and people are very vocal about that, but it scares me when people who believe what I just read are adding to the voice of the masses against it. If the community doesn't want the talents I am fine by that, but when so many players are uninformed, not researching proper uses and theories behind these talents and still speaking out so adamantly about the removal it makes me wonder if these talents are getting a fair trial. I am not trying to bash your post ssj, bur you just perfectly illustrated a point that has been worrying me for quite some time about the mass backlash over these talents.

My mage was the first char I made when wow came out, I base my choices on experience and play style and what I said, and what this thread is about, is more or less accurate, the 90 talents suck. I'm not saying they should be removed, just improved, you compared evocation to incanters ward saying 2 gcds every 24s and invocation over 2 second cast once a minute? Incanters gives a flat dmg boost, the other 2 dont, on top of that its a one GCD no different than casting ice barrier or mana shield and boom, you have the full 15%, sure you have to do it more often than the other two, but you don't have to use a GCD AND channel a spell to get the benefit. My main point about evocation is that its clearly the arcane option and not nearly as convenient for the other specs, invocation is required to play arcane, so it only makes sense, now if they made the other 2 have clear advantages to fire or frost then it'd be better. A casted spell that requires you two stay in a certain location is never good, period, a mana regen spell that you would otherwise never need is never good unless you feel like not dpsing for a few seconds, though its viable enough to get away with. A instant cast you can use when you have to move spots or when you're about to take dmg is best for me and most people I know. But over all, its only a 15% dmg increase that most people find negligible in the first place.

[Deztru]

If the level 90 talents were short term buffs you could plan around for burst periods of a fight - they would be terrific. Know that Mark of Anguish is about to come out, so you evocate to have your buff up for the short period of time? Adds to the skill cap without being painful. Same thing with rune - in fact, run would be amazing this way ... trading short term mobility for burst. Put them on 3 minute timers with say ... 20 secs of buff.

As they are right now, they are simply miserable and if they are not changed I won't be playing a mage in WoD.

Well, having 50%+ haste as high-end frost mage when the metagem procs Invocation takes 1,3 seconds to cast. After you reach a certain gear-point none of the level 90 talents have issues anymore.

[mrgreenthump]

Well, having 50%+ haste as high-end frost mage when the metagem procs Invocation takes 1,3 seconds to cast. After you reach a certain gear-point none of the level 90 talents have issues anymore.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't 1.3 second invocation take 130% haste? I somehow doubt anyone could get that with just a meta proc. So at 50% raid buffed haste, you would need at least an IV + Meta proc to reach that.

[Firebert]

Completely faulty logic, not that you'd understand.

Where?

Its passive effect has gone straight along developers' own lines that Active effects that require work should generally be superior to Passive effects.

And when all other active effects "suck", take the passive effect and ignore it. Mage T90 is either work for more DPS or take the obvious choice and get slightly less DPS, no complaining allowed (as you rightly said).

As far as I know, no PvE mage seriously uses it.

<<< PvE Mage that seriously uses IW.

Reasoning: Invocation costs more than one GCD and directly contradicts the reason to stack Mastery. RoP costs more than one GCD and further inhibits movement, hence either take damage (if it's feasible, hence pick IW) or move out of RoP (pointless taking the talent in the first place). IW:

Unpopped: 6% DPS boost, 65% mana boost (Mastery synergy).
Popped on cooldown: 15% DPS boost, 12499MP5 lost (for my character here onwards), which is 62493 mana over the duration of the cooldown
Shield fully popped: 5793 mana lost total, which is a 1.05% DPS loss from Mastery, when multiplied with the gain gives me a 14.84% DPS gain
Shield not popped: 62493 mana lost, which is a 19.83% mana loss, which is an 11.35% DPS loss from Mastery, puts mana in a negative spiral (which contradicts the reason to stack Mastery)

Never popping IW is 66.25% efficient and requires no management whatsoever.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, having 50%+ haste as high-end frost mage when the metagem procs Invocation takes 1,3 seconds to cast.

Evocation takes 6s to cast. Invocation halves the cast time to 3s. The Haste multiplier is 1/(1+x) where x is your Haste %.

3/(1+x) = 1.3 => x 130.769% Haste.

Meta gem is 30%, Hero is 40%, 50% base Haste above, 7% Haste Multiplier from Frost Armor and 5% Spell Haste Aura gives 133.75% Haste as required. This doesn't include the trinket that also increases Haste %.

[arizonapriest93]

My mage was the first char I made when wow came out, I base my choices on experience and play style and what I said, and what this thread is about, is more or less accurate, the 90 talents suck. I'm not saying they should be removed, just improved, you compared evocation to incanters ward saying 2 gcds every 24s and invocation over 2 second cast once a minute? Incanters gives a flat dmg boost, the other 2 dont, on top of that its a one GCD no different than casting ice barrier or mana shield and boom, you have the full 15%, sure you have to do it more often than the other two, but you don't have to use a GCD AND channel a spell to get the benefit. My main point about evocation is that its clearly the arcane option and not nearly as convenient for the other specs, invocation is required to play arcane, so it only makes sense, now if they made the other 2 have clear advantages to fire or frost then it'd be better. A casted spell that requires you two stay in a certain location is never good, period, a mana regen spell that you would otherwise never need is never good unless you feel like not dpsing for a few seconds, though its viable enough to get away with. A instant cast you can use when you have to move spots or when you're about to take dmg is best for me and most people I know. But over all, its only a 15% dmg increase that most people find negligible in the first place.

Referencing the bolded info here, It is not boom powa, you have to get your bubble bursted, which in some situations is difficult to do, especially when the damage you could take is high and typically just kills you or comes close. That makes it a hassle in that manner. In addition say you do not pop it you are fucked over for the remaining CD no passive damage mod.

Secondly Invocation is, usable, by Arc but most certainly not the most viable, which is what RoP rules, and has for this entire xpac. Fire and Frost don't need the mana but for those specs it isn't about the mana its about the damage boost and obtaining it while getting most uptime and efficiency. Arc has to factor in mana regen (its why rop is boss for them).

More OT: They're okay talents, as others have said incredibly lack luster 90 talents, they don't make me feel super powered, as I said when I dinged 90 at the beginning of MoP, "why couldn't they just tune us another 15% or so?" It seemed like a band-aid. Regardless Incanter's does provide some interesting gameplay, but it is so over shadowed/powered in most situations besides PvP. And Honestly as someone who has pvp'd and understands pvp as it is atm, casting is dangerous, so invocation has a rough start even from there. Plus the added mobility of IW does add to it in that regard, but other than primarily pvp I see no reason to take IW essentially ever. I feel they can be made interesting and additive to our gameplay but feel that they're currently toxic to current gameplay. I like RoP as a cooldown but as mrgreenthump stated, a passive that increases damage while stationary, lowers while moving, an example of an ability like this is Sniper Training. Not saying we want that but it's an example for those who where wondering how they have done something like this idea.

Ultimately I think they should be scrapped mainly because everyone is going to think negative about them unless Blizz nails it 100% in terms of the new versions, which while they may get 2 the chances of getting all 3 is low. I have justifiably used every talent for mages regularly, but still don't have a regular use for IW besides "I'm lazy today" or PvP. In terms of new, I like passives that are sorta like the timeless isle buffs, like all stats are increased by X%, and I think a fun one could be an amp talent, as in like PBoI, Your secondary effects are now X% more effective. I do not fully have a third and hell these aren't even fully flushed out ideas, please theorize on them as well if you'd like, it's just an idea that I feel achieves the same "push damage up a bit" mechanic. Yes it isn't active but I feel the concepts are still fun, even if you don't utilize them outside of selecting them.

[Deleted]

I would like to say my opinion on the topic. As background information I am a mage with 574 item level named Badweaver and located on the Auchindoun server. My experience dates from Cata till MoP.
What is really apparent is the amount of mages playing on high end guilds, which has decreased alot even though on Simcraft they can offer the best dps. One reason for that is in my opinion these talents. Someone asked why when everyone has uninteresting talents mages are the ones to scream the loudest about it. That is because the final talent is generally what identifies the class. Think of Dota, where the ultimate ability (ULT) set's a hero apart. Warlocks are known for their AoE and atleast one of their last choices reflects that. Priests are primarily a healing, but everyone can say that a SPriest Halo looks pretty damn fantastic. The Tier 90 talent choices for mages are sterile. Let me analyze why:
Invocation: - I do not mind Invocation that much, as it's easy to handle. Just setup a weak Aura's string to recast it when it's almost over and you got the buff. The problem is exactly that. When I choose Invocation I do not feel I am making a significant choice that is going to affect my playstyle. Just a 2 second channel just in order to maintain a buff. But it is not fun and it doesn't define my class or playstyle (much unlike the various different bombs). It's the obvious superior pick for Fire and Frost as it offers the most damage and mobility, plus a nice little heal for fights like IJ HC
Rune of Power: - The idea behind it is good but the execution fails. It's a mandatory pick for arcane in order to maintain their mana at 100% at all times as the burst and maintain Cata style is no longer good. For Fire and Frost it just limits our mobility and it should not be picked. Because of that it is a limiting factor, and does not have a nice feeling to it. A good rework would for it to be a dps cooldown rather than a mana management issue. Drop it on the ground and for 5 yards you get 20% increased damage for 10 seconds. Someone mentioned something like that.
IW: -It's unreliable and with alter time one small mistake could remove a huge buff. Shouldn't be picked for PVE. If you want to be sure it's popped you need to "Stand in the Fire" which strains healers.
Overall i believe that a) mana management and b) mandatory %based buffs are a sterile gameplay and Blizzard can do much better. I don't make a fuss about it now, but I most certainly wouldn't be unhappy if they replaced them with something a) more visual and b) more intuitively fun.

[Meciel]

I'll add my 2 cents here. One by one:

Invocation: The simplest and the one I always use for frost. Terrible not because it's difficult or clunky to use (which I don't think it is) but because a level 90 talent should be more than pressing a button and waiting for 2 seconds every minute, pretty much regardless of what's going on. It sort of reminds me of 30 second paladin seals in vanilla, except worse, since at least paladins had a choice of seals and effects generated by them. The only hint of "strategy" involved in using this talent is maybe clipping it onto the end of a meta proc or a herosim. As has been observed several times, no compelling gameplay would be lost by simply removing this garbage and giving mages a flat 15% damage boost.

Rune of power: Interesting in theory, rubbish in practice. I play arcane on several fights in SoO (the ones where multidotting and superpowered arcane aoe pays big dividends, e.g. Protectors, Dark Shamans, etc.) and I only use this talent on Galakras, and only because I'm usually not on tower team. There simply aren't enough fights where standing still (or at least within the radius of the rune) for an extended period is a viable strategy.

Incanter's ward: This used to be way more interesting when it gave more bonus damage than the other two talents, if you could pop it. Now, it's my default choice for arcane on fights like Dark Shamans purely as a passive. Again, a level 90 talent that (outside of pvp) is used as a pure passive damage/mana boost is awful.

On top of the completely underwhelming nature of having a flat damage boost and mana management as a level 90 talent tier, there's the fact that which one you choose is almost entire spec dependent. As frost (and as far as I know, fire) there is absolutely no reason to choose anything other than Invocation. As arcane, invocation is completely unplayable and you're left with choosing the lesser of the other two evils, depending on the amount of movement in the fight.

I love my mage and I've learned to deal with the crappy talent tier, but I would dearly like to see it go in favor of something more interesting.

[Polarthief]

And sadly, Blizzard are against you.

It doesn't matter, really. Every class has bad tiers, I don't see why Mages have to be the loudest about complaining about theirs when there exists an obvious solution (take and ignore IW).

I... Wuh... Are you being serious here?

This is allowable if you don't care about your performance. By taking IW, you're automatically gimping yourself. Both the raw math behind it, AND the fact that nearly every raiding Mage that isn't casual doesn't use IW, in the same sense that they don't use Invo as Arcane and RoP as Fire/Frost. It's not as simple as "take the passive one and don't worry about it".

[Azrile]

I've been sick and tired of them ever since I had the displeasure of choosing them.

Especcialy during leveling, the level 90 talents are a freaking pain in the ass. I feel like a Dragonball Z character who needs to power up every time in order to be at full strength. Talents should increase your power above 100%, not be mandatory to reach 100% of your power...

They made me quit my Mage.

I hate Living Bomb being limited to 3 or 5 targets, whatever it is these days. Fire has become boring. It used to be amazing to see Hot Streak in your screen. This whole Inferno Blast bullshit is just a lazy fix by Blizzard because they don't wanna put any effort into bringing Fire back to the way in was back in WotLK.

The lvl 90 talents are a pain while leveling?

[Polarthief]

The lvl 90 talents are a pain while leveling?

I'd give him the BOTD and assume he meant soloing (probably for dailies/rep grinds), which is basically the same as leveling (at max level).

[Orrin]

The lvl 90 talents are a pain while leveling?

While soloing. Yes. Not so much now as they were before they were buffed/nerfed (Invo cast time, RoP radius).
In case on Invo you had to cast for 6 seconds to get that +25% damage buff before each pack. And it was each pack because buff lasted only 40 seconds. Tideous work.
In case of RoP you would opt for +15% buff, but couldn't kite at all. It's a joke considering that Mages are known kite class.
As for IW, you would opt either for +6% passive, or make yourself be hit by mob to get +30% buff from shield.

As you see, all three choices either go against traditional Mage playstyle and ranged playstyle or make soloing tedious work. Inability to do fun soloing was the reason I quit Mage for this expansion. An easiness of soloing with Warlock at the same ilvls was outrageous for me.

[charliebr0wn85]

They're garbage.