Let's have a discussion about petless hunter

[Zulandia]

Isn't the main reason it's so hard to balance the lock talent due to the fact that they gain some special thing when sacking? Of hunters simply get a +% buff when removing the pet you can quite easily tune that compared to the other talents depending on how much damage they do.

They gain the ability their pet would have anyways so not really any harder to balance(and they could do the same for hunters i.e. if you get rid of a sporebat you buff spell haste, get rid of a corehound you get BL etc. otherwise you would lose a ton of utility for taking the talent)

[Bullettime]

They gain the ability their pet would have anyways so not really any harder to balance(and they could do the same for hunters i.e. if you get rid of a sporebat you buff spell haste, get rid of a corehound you get BL etc. otherwise you would lose a ton of utility for taking the talent)

They also, instead of a flat boost to their damage, gain the damage to specific spells or give abilities different interactions because they didn't want their multidotting power to be boosted by it. This results in being harder to balance as it throws off secondary stat weights and scaling. Hunters are much easier to balance in that department given our mechanics don't have any extra big secondary scaling features except for Piercing Shots for Marks while we also don't have multidot power that has to be addressed and balanced properly.

Affliction for example gains a damage boost to the Malefic Grasp effect (75% DoT potency instead of 50%.) When the bonus damage was 30%, this was having an impact on their scaling as pets don't scale with Mastery while Sac did. This then put more power into Mastery and Haste to amplify the damage further. They already had good Haste and Mastery scaling due to kit design and had pretty good return on Mastery investment, especially compared to us, which was then exacerbated. The talent was constantly nerfed because of this as it was allowing the spec to double dip on its secondaries.

Our buff is just a flat damage bonus to everything while we don't have kit mechanics like theirs that double dip off stats and bonuses to amplify the damage buff into something absurd like it was doing for Warlocks.

[Hyde]

So, ever since MoP I've been hearing a lot of complaints about hunter pets and how people wished that Blizzard would give hunters the option to forgo a pet and roll solo. While I respect this opinion, I feel it complete ruins the feeling of the hunter class.

Hunters are a pet class. Not just a pet class though, we are THE pet class. The only class who has to tame their pet, choose its skin, and name it. I've been playing a hunter since the beginning and the reason I chose the class was because of the bond that the hunter shared with their pet. Now I'm not an RPer and I will agree that the bond has definitely left with the removal of happiness, the tame beast quest, and pet food but we are still the premier pet class.

So, why do people want to get rid of their pet? Most people find it to be annoying because pets can bug out on certain fights and their AI tends to be somewhat wonky at times. Instead of choosing to get rid of our pets I think we should pressure Blizz into improving the AI of pets and putting more thought into their fights as to whether they will bug pets out. There are 4 classes in WoW with pets currently so I think it is a large enough issue to warrant dev time.

I also want to add that I don't have a problem with the petless talent as an option. I just don't want it to become the best talent period. I still enjoy having my pet around and while I am willing to dismiss him for fights where pet AI is stupid, I don't want to be a petless hunter.

Check out my thread on changes that I think would make petless hunter to be more desireble.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...r-changes-idea

[anjan011]

So long as BM i get to have that with or without u, i don't care about other 2 specs have to keep pet or not. Ppl wants no pet thats fine, so long that doesnt affect BM in any negative way, that is.

[Deleted]

It could work if it was done like the druids talents so they have a 4th spec. I'm not too sure though, it's such a big part of the hunter class it would almost feel like a brand new class without a pet.

[Magruun]

As someone who mained a Warlock during MoP the choice for me was largely down to the DPS difference.
That said I actually liked having a pet more than sacrificing it.
Sure, in some cases the pet can be rather a hassle when it dies or when you have to switch targets a lot but usually it just sits there slowly eating away at the boss as a permanent DoT.
Also when questing or solo-ing the Voidlord is an absolute monster, not having it tank for you makes it a lot harder by yourself for only a bit of extra damage.
It at least makes it clear the Warlock was not designed to quest without a voidwalker.

[lakhesis]

So, ever since MoP I've been hearing a lot of complaints about hunter pets and how people wished that Blizzard would give hunters the option to forgo a pet and roll solo. While I respect this opinion, I feel it complete ruins the feeling of the hunter class.

Hunters are a pet class. Not just a pet class though, we are THE pet class. The only class who has to tame their pet, choose its skin, and name it. I've been playing a hunter since the beginning and the reason I chose the class was because of the bond that the hunter shared with their pet. Now I'm not an RPer and I will agree that the bond has definitely left with the removal of happiness, the tame beast quest, and pet food but we are still the premier pet class.

I had the opposite reaction. I rolled a hunter because I wanted to play an archer. Digging out my old vanilla game manual, here's how the hunter was described:

The hunter is a unique class in World of Warcraft because it is primarily a ranged attacker. Even though other classes can learn to use ranged weapons, none of them is as proficient in their deadly use as the hunter. To support the hunter's ranged attacks, this class has two main advantages: a loyal pet and a wide array of movement-restriction spells (p.84)

What I got out of that was simple - a hunter is a ranged archer supported by a pet & kiting. But the class's focus is the bow/gun.

When I first rolled a hunter, I assumed that I could just focus on the archery & the kiting, and neglect the pet. Little did I know...

I recognise that others were either drawn to the pet, or came to like the pet, but like many others that portion was actually a turn off for me. I've adapted, but it's pleasing to see that all these years later I can finally just be the archer I'd always wanted to roll.

That said, like the OP, I recognise there are plenty of people who disagree & I hope they get the balance close enough that it can be a genuinely free playstyle choice.

[Finick]

Funny thing is the times I complain about my pet is few and far between. Your pet is 100% manageable in the current game. So much abilities of our class is tied to our pet regardless of spec.

My main issue with my pets isn't that they're off doing they're own thing and looking back at me going "you don't control me." It's just that managing them is tedious. It's annoying. Not to say I don't do it, but you know what the best part about playing some of my alts is? Not having a pet. Being able to switch targets and have the most annoying thing being getting my DoTs rolling, or charging into melee. Soloing out in the world? Yeah, I love having my pet. But in a raid environment? God, sometimes I fume about how much DPS a pet can account for as a non BM spec, and then get even more annoyed I don't even have the option to kill that little bugger.

Another thing that often bothers me is this whole... Misconception that pets are somehow integral and important to non BM specs gameplaywise. I mean as survival or MM how many pet abilities even interact with the Hunter? I can only think of two off the top of my head I have ever used, which would be Master's Call and Sac, and as others pointed out Master's Call could potentially even be removed as a result of CC pruning, though I'd be sad to see Master's Call go.

I guess my main thought process is that; how can someone not want a choice to go petless? Honestly, I'd be happy if they tuned petless to be slightly weaker than having a pet. That way people who are into rp or something of that sort can use their pet, and not feel threatened by petless. I mean really though, who even notices they have a pet out? The whole fight it's in melee, and you can't even see it. The only time I ever see my pet is when I'm sitting in shrine, uploading selfies with my pet (#HunterLyfe.) Hell, even then the damn thing bugs out sometimes and just keeps teleporting on top of me, and frickin annoys me.

I love my Hunter. It's probably the most relaxing, and enjoyable class I've played. That being said, words cannot describe how happy I am going to be to have the option to go petless (notice I say option, because I know I won't use it all the time.) That combined with the (fingers crossed) tweaking of Hunter specs to differentiate them... Has me hoping next expansion will be a very fun one to play my Hunter in. I just hope Blizzard doesn't crush my soul and disappoint me as they've often done in the past.

[Battlebeard]

Best idea they ever had! I might finally feel more like playing hunter now without that awful pet!

[Fumu]

As a hunter player since Vanilla but a hunter raider since LK (raided priest in the first two expansions) I welcome this change with open arms. I -love- pets, but their AI is just too screwy for certain boss encounters.

I am using this tier for reference but realize that things are far better than the "listen to melee instructions in vent and micromanage them" days. I don't miss that. That doesn't mean that the core problems are fixed, though.

List of things my pet bugs out on:
Dark shamans
Galrakas towers
Dies to blind orc's cleaves
Garrosh

My dps suffers in Nazgrim and Norushen as BM because my pet is always being shuttled back and forth to deal with adds. Yes I could respec, but that's not what this conversation is about. Also nothing is more annoying than spamming KC only to find out that your pet is still miles away from the target.

On another note, flavor-wise it's bothered me since BC that hunters use flying mounts and no longer see their grounded pets. It makes perfect gameplay sense but in character, how does that work? Does my tiger get carried away in the talons of my proto drake? Does a completely non-magical feral beast have the ability to teleport to you? We can't have the alternative of your pet showing up 3 hours late to the fight panting, but the straight up poofing just annoys me. Especially with flyer pets.

In WoD I will probably use the pet for soloing tough fights and in town, and go petless otherwise.

[blackblade]

Hunter T100 is kind of flawed... because it's basically 3 tradeoffs.

A) Trade away some mobility with Focusing Shot for mega focus regen.
B) Trade away the utility the pet brings to do a little extra DPS.
C) Deal slightly less auto attack damage, but bypass armor.

I'm not really sure any of them will be a consistent gain outside of snipe/focusing shot in a fairly standstill encounter or BM's version of with or without you (Versatility, which is still pretty much all utility). Realistically, you could get away with not picking any of them and probably not notice a difference.

Likely: Focusing Shot will have it's cast time reduced to be maybe a little bit closer than cobra/steady shot. Searing Arrows will deal 100% (or closer to it) as fire damage, so it's a gain even in PVP against targets with low armor (clothies), and Lone Wolf will likely provide a passive extra (like grimoire of sacrifice) to account for reduced versatility and survivability.

If lone wolf goes live, all (or most of) the "Requires a pet" talent will gain a caveat that says "If you don't have a pet, does this instead."

[Whales96]

Don't have much sympathy for Hunters who hate their pets. Tempted to tell them to sod off and play a Mage.

Mixed feelings about the petless talent. Diversity among specs is good, but it's kind of contrary to the concept of a Hunter.

Because shooting things with a bow is exactly like shooting fireballs and powering up a gem of power

[Deleted]

Being able to instantly switch 100% of your damage from one target to the next is a really powerful option for us. I've been playing hunter as a raiding main for many, many, many years and this change can't come soon enough. Them Serpent Stings gonna tick like a bomb.

thats not what the new talent does, the new talent gives us 30% more damage

[Luko]

thats not what the new talent does, the new talent gives us 30% more damage

In other words, not having a pet means the INSTANT you switch targets, you're doing 100% of your damage to it, rather than waiting for the pet to switch. I believe that's what he meant, and I agree.

Less constructively, I don't need viability justification for this talent. I'll take the talent because fuck pet classes.

[Deleted]

In other words, not having a pet means the INSTANT you switch targets, you're doing 100% of your damage to it, rather than waiting for the pet to switch. I believe that's what he meant, and I agree.

Less constructively, I don't need viability justification for this talent. I'll take the talent because fuck pet classes.

Well if you don't want a pet it's your choice, shame you choose a pet class in the first place though ^^

Personally I will wait for either the beta or launch to judge the talents, I have ust seen a video stating they changed the "with or without you" talent completely. So don't know who or what to believe lol

[Luko]

Well if you don't want a pet it's your choice, shame you choose a pet class in the first place though ^^

Personally I will wait for either the beta or launch to judge the talents, I have ust seen a video stating they changed the "with or without you" talent completely. So don't know who or what to believe lol

I chose the class to be an archer, the pet was a very unfortunate part of the package. They're definitely adding this talent as a response to popular demand.

Anyway, if you're referring to the video that shows the talent listing off a bunch of pet stat ability increases, that's because in Beastmaster spec they're forced to keep the pet out so the talent does something different for them and changes its name/function completely. In MM/Surv it's still the petless talent.

[Beasty]

I've only just boosted my level 40 hunter to 90 so I'm a total noob but I'd gladly shed the pet! To be fair a lot of my annoyance was caused by having taunt on in LFR but I do like the idea of a pure marksman with no pet.

[Bullettime]

Well if you don't want a pet it's your choice, shame you choose a pet class in the first place though ^^

Personally I will wait for either the beta or launch to judge the talents, I have ust seen a video stating they changed the "with or without you" talent completely. So don't know who or what to believe lol

Pets are an unfortunate part of the package for some given Hunters are the only archery/ranged weaponry using class in the game.

If there was an option to play something like a Dark Ranger, then your argument would have more weight to it.

[Hyde]

WOD Hunter changes suggestion

General

Arcane Shot renamed into Silver Shot
Silver Shot: Level 90, 30 Focus, 40 yd range, Instant cast, Requires Hunter, Requires level 1, Requires Ranged Weapon, An instant shot that causes 125% weapon damage plus 2306 as Arcane damage. Applies the ‘Hunter's Mark’ effect.’
For Marksmanship:
Critical Strike from your Silver Shot will raise your mastery and haste by 3% for 30 sec. Stacks up to 3 times.
For Survival:
Your Silver Shot damage increased by 2.5% when the target is effected by Serpent Sting and another 2.5% when the target is effected by Viper Shot.
For Beastmastery:
Ranamed as Dire Shot
Dire Shot: Level 90, 30 Focus, 40 yd range, Instant cast, Requires Hunter(Beastmastery), Requires level 60, Requires Ranged Weapon ;
An instant shot that causes 125% weapon damage plus 2306 as Arcane damage and summons a Dire Beast to attack your target for 12 sec and generate 5 focus when each time it attacks a target. Each Kill Command adds 6 second duration and each Dire Shot adds 2 second to the summon duration. Replaces Silver Shot. Only one Dire Beast can be active at one time."

Serpent Sting revamped
Serpent Sting: Level 90, 15 Focus, 40 yd range, Instant cast, Requires Hunter, Requires level 10, Requires Ranged Weapon, Causes 16200 (+ 80% of Attack power) Nature damage over 15 sec.
For Markmanship
Can be refreshed by Chimera Shot and Aimed Shot. Each Tick has a chance of generating 5 focus to the hunter
For Survival
Can be refreshed by Snipe, Explosive Shot, Viper Shot and Cobra Shot. Can be spread by Multi-Shot, Barrage, Glaive Toss and Powershot.
For Beastmastery
Can be refreshed by Cobra Shot and Snipe. Each tick has a chance of triggering 'A Quiver of Cobra'.
A Quiver of Cobras; Your next Cobra Shot or Snipe summons 3 angry cobras to attack the target for 8 sec. Can only occur once in every 30 second.

Kill Shot revamped
Kill Shot: 45 yd range, Instant 10 sec cooldown, Requires Hunter, Requires level 35, Requires Ranged Weapon, You attempt to finish the wounded target off, firing a long range attack dealing 420% weapon damage. Kill Shot can only be used on enemies that have 20% or less health.
for Marksmanship
If Kill Shot fails to kill the target, the cooldown is instantly reset, but cannot be reset more often than once every 6 sec and applies healing reduction debuff to the target for 11 sec.
Survival
Kill Shot applies 'Splinter' to the target, causing additional 50% damage and return 60 focus to the Hunter for the period of 6 seconds.
Beast Mastery
Your next Kill Command costs no focus.

Blink Strike is now a baseline skill learned by hunters at level 30.

Stampede can now only be learned via talent.

Direbeast is BM only skill

Master's Call revamped
Master's Call: Summons 2 quick fleeted Ferrets with 5hp each to free the target and the Hunter's pet. The Ferret will follow the target and the Hunter's pet around for 6 second. The Ferrets are immune to AOE and movement impairing effects.

New Skill; Rank of a Ranger (passive)
Rank of a Ranger: Requires level 12, The Hunter now ranked as a ranger, increasing ranged attack power by 25%.

New Skill; Rank of an Outrunner (toggle, active)
Rank of an Outrunner, Requires level 24, Instant, 30 second cooldown, The Hunter now ranked as an Outrunner, losing all focus, disabling Rank of a Ranger, and damage done reduced by 30%, increasing movement speed by 30% and breaks free the hunter from movement impairing effects.

Ammo Bag and Quiver makes a comeback and aesthetically changes depending on your equipped weapon. At level 1 you will have a passive called 'Ammo Container', which displays ammo bag or quiver on your toon.
At level 10, a drop down list like your 'Call Pet' skill will be made available from Ammo Container for you to choose one these three ammunitions. You can have only one type of ammunition active at one time and it can only be switched when you are not in combat.
Knucklesting Slugs Your next ranged attack will cause the enemy target to take 4% increased physical damage for 25 sec.
Crackshot Slugs Your next ranged attack weakens the armor of the target by 4% for 30 sec. Stacks up to 3 times.
Rumblestorm Slugs Your next ranged attack will increase magical damage taken by 5% for 25 sec.

Trueshot Aura:
Infuses all party and raid members with Trueshot, granting 10% increased melee and ranged attack power to all party and raid members within 100 yards. Only one Aspect can be active at a time.

Aspect of the Hawk (Alliance,A)/Serpent (Horde,H)
The hunter takes on the Aspect of the Hawk/Serpent,increasing their critical strike chance by 5%.

Aspect of the Dragonhawk (Alliance,A)/Wind Serpent (Horde,H)
The hunter takes on the Aspect of the Dragon Hawk/Wind Serpent, increasing the all party and raid member's spell power by 10% and critical strike chance by 5%. Replaces Aspect of Hawk/Serpent.

Aspect of the Fox
The hunter takes on the Aspect of the Fox, increasing the melee and ranged attack speed of all party and raid members within 100 yards by 10%. Only one Aspect can be active at a time.

Aspect of the Wolf (H)/Lion (A)
The hunter takes on the Aspect of the Wolf/Lion, increasing Strength, Agility, and Intellect by 5%. Only one Aspect can be active at a time.

Aspect of the Boar
The hunter takes on the Aspect of the Boar, increasing party and raid members' Stamina by 10%. Only one Aspect can be active at a time.

Aspect of the Wyvern (H)/Gryphon (A)
The hunter takes on the Aspect of the Wyvern/Gryphon, increasing the mastery of all party and raid members by 3000 within 100 yards. Only one Aspect can be active at a time.

Survival

Black Arrow renamed into Viper Shot
Viper Shot: Level 90, 35 Focus, 40 yd range, Instant cast, 30 sec cooldown, Requires Hunter (Survival), Requires level 50, Requires Ranged Weapon, ‘Fires a venomous ammunition at the target, dealing 1570 (+ 126% of Attack power) damage over 20 sec.*Refreshes Serpent Sting.Applies the ‘Hunter's Mark’ effect.’

Explosive Shot: Level 90, 25 Focus, 40 yd range, Instant cast, 6 sec cooldown, Requires Hunter (Survival), Requires level 10, Requires Ranged Weapon, You fire an explosive charge into the enemy target, dealing [(244 + 730) / 2 + Ranged attack power * 391 / 1000] Fire damage initially and every second for 2 sec and applying the Hunter's Mark effect. ’Damage is increased by 5% if the target is effected by Viper Shot.Applies the ‘Hunter's Mark’ effect.’

Marksmanship

Aimed Shot refreshes Serpent Sting.

New spell; Velocity (passive) :Aimed Shot, Silver Shot and Multi-shot reduce the cooldown of Rapid Fire by 4 seconds per cast.


Beastmastery

New passive; Killing Streak-If your Kill Command does critical strike twice in a row, your next Silver Shot or Arcane Shot will require no focus.

Talents

Tier 1 –same as live

Tier 2 -
Intimidation is ‘removed’ and now replaced with 'Arachnophobia’.
Arachnophobia: 60 second cd, Summons a Broodmother Spider (Model used; Beth'tilac) to follow a friendly target for 15 seconds that flings Spider Hatchlings to nearby enemy face's, fearing the target for 4 sec and snaring them in spot for 8 sec.
Tier 3 – Aspect of the Iron Hawk is removed and replaced with Iron Beast
Iron Beast: You and your pet take 10% less damage.
Spirit Bond reworked
Spirit Bond : Requires Hunter, Requires level 45, You and your pet will regenerate 3% of total health every 2 sec. While your pet is active, all healing done to you and your pet is increased by 5%.

Tier 4 – Dire Beast removed and now is a BM only talent
Thrill of The Hunt now also effects the hunter's pet.
Thrill of The Hunt: You have a 30% chance when you fire a ranged attack that costs Focus or Kill Command to reduce the Focus cost of your next 3 Silver Shots or Multi-Shots by 20 and your pet's next 3 Smack, Claw, or Bite to cost no focus.
New skill *Vigilance (passive): Your Cobra Shot and Steady Shot and Snipe generate 10% more focus and will also generate 10% of your pet's focus.

Tier 5 –
Stampede is now a talent.
Lynx Rush removed. Blink Strike is now a baseline skill for all hunter’s spec and replaced with ‘With or Without You’.
A Murder of Crow revamed: Level 90, 100 yd range, Instant, 1 min cooldown, Requires Hunter, Requires level 75, Summon A Murder of Crow that circles the sky, attacking and changing from target to target, attacking 9 times over 4 sec. Each attack causes the target to bleed for [86 ( + 3.8% of Attack power) * 5] damage over 15 sec, stacking up to 9 times.
With or Without you;
Beast Mastery (Versatility), Passive, Increases the effect of your pet’s Combat experience to 70% increased damage. Your pet now gains the following abilities, regardless of spec: Rabid, Spiked Collar, Thunderstomp, Blood of the Rhino, Great Stamina, Bullheaded, Cornered, Boar’s Speed
Marksmanship & Survival (Lone Wolf), Passive, Increases all damage dealt by 30% when you don’t have a pet active.

Tier 6 – same as live

Upcoming ; Pet changes, Glyphs, tier 7 and other things all huntery as well.

[anjan011]

WOD Hunter changes suggestion
Snip ...

Improved from ur original spec. but Dire Shot and Dire Beast both cant exist at the same time. since dire shot would do what dire beast does, only better per ur spec. and Dire Shot will be too OP.