Button Bloat - Which DK abilities will be removed?

[Kaleredar]

I have a feeling that getting a glyph that gives us 30 runic and takes three runes instantly is a bit much considering what it does. Hence, also, why the channel is there.

Yeah but its on a 10 minute cooldown. That's once per most fights, save for maybe end-tier raid bosses. Considering that ERW not only gives us a chunk of runic power but also GIVES us our runes back and is on a 5 minute cooldown, I don't think blowing half your runes for 30 runic power on a 10 minute DPS CD would be all that game-breaking.

[Maxweii]

I don't think it would be too bad, at least on the PvE side of things. It would tech make it stronger but removes the defensive part of it.
However you aren't thinking of PvP. (I know in arena you can't use it, can you in rbg's)? The ability to swarm the enemy with a mass of mobs alongside having 30 more runic then before is a lot to balance. Also considering if it's instant there is no countering it, it would be nerfed damage wise to compensate.

[Clash the DK]

My preferred method to fix GCD capping for DKs looks something like this.

1) Give all specs in the entire game a 1.5s base GCD (I know, this reverts our biggest win in MoP beta, but bear with me)
2) Again for all specs in the game, scale the melee GCD (just like spell does now) and short rotational cooldowns with haste. Like Ret paladins in 5.0. (aha!)
3) Increase all RP costs and L75 procrates by X%. I envision something like 15%.
4) Change Unholy Presence so it doesn't give haste. Multistrike would work.
5) Speed up base rune refresh rates by Y%. I envision around 20%. This makes the class play much better at low gear levels, avoiding the fury warrior/fire mage syndrome in scaled environments like challenge modes. (Counterproductive for GCD consumption, you say? No, see #6)
6) Flatten the haste curve as pertains to rune regen only. Set a gentle soft cap roughly equivalent to T17 heroic raiding gear 100% optimized/enchanted/gemmed to haste. So once they hit T18 and above, players start trying to focus on other stats once they hit that soft cap. But it is a gentle soft cap, so if you go a couple hundred rating above it's no big deal, it's just not dead-on optimal. This is not the current 7.5% hard hit cap where additional rating has no value.

Allow me to once again get your back on this topic.

This specific design should be the gold standard and implemented across the board for all melee classes. It is the only way that a melee class will ever truly appreciate Haste as a stat. I'm talking about a tangible and positive effect on the way we interact with our abilities.

Current design gives Haste too much control over our resources. We shouldn't be put into situations early during an xpac where we go long periods of time without being able to use any ability at all because we lack X amount of Haste; That is not fun. And we shouldn't be repulsed by Haste towards the end of an xpac because we've tapped out the usefulness of the stat at that point. We do need Haste to affect the way we play our class......but just not to such extremes.

Some people feel like a 1.5 sec gcd is too slow, while some feel a 1.0 sec gcd is too fast. Idealistically, this would be a way to further tailor the game around the needs/wants of each individual player. Granted, that is assuming their goal of all secondary stats being closer in value going forward comes to fruition. Nevertheless, the "feels" gained from this potential new interaction with Haste would be enough for most people.

[Skarssen]

Part of the problem with haste at this point is AMS. Without AMS soaking haste is still the best stat for 2h, probably UH, and certainly not so poor for DW as it is now. Retribution loves haste, and even at this point in the expansion they haven't reached a point where they have too much.

AMS just gives us incentive to take otherwise avoidable damage to boost DPS. Just get rid of the RP regen mechanic already.

[Deleted]

Remove plague strike/icy touch and remake Outbreak to be kind of like how it was in cata for blood (30 sec cd).
Possibly make Roiling Blood a standard passive for all specs and add some new interesting talent there.

Otherwise, DKs don't really have that many abilities. At least from my experience, I really have to struggle to fill all my bars on my dk, but on my shaman I have way too many random abilities that I rarely use, but are still necessary to have on my bars for those "special moments".

[Kezotar]

Remove plague strike/icy touch and remake Outbreak to be kind of like how it was in cata for blood (30 sec cd).
Possibly make Roiling Blood a standard passive for all specs and add some new interesting talent there.

Otherwise, DKs don't really have that many abilities. At least from my experience, I really have to struggle to fill all my bars on my dk, but on my shaman I have way too many random abilities that I rarely use, but are still necessary to have on my bars for those "special moments".

What? 30 second CD on outbreak? What if our diseases gets dispelled, bom - 30 seconds with reduced dmg...
Rather have diseases be applied from melee strikes, or bake it in icy touch fro unholy and howling blast for frost.

DKs have alot of abilties for PvP. There's alot of arena focus for strang/asphyxiate, chain, grip, spell steal, kick etc..

But apart from that, frost has zero to none abilties, 3 that you use at most after diseases are applied.

[Schizoide]

Part of the problem with haste at this point is AMS. (...) Just get rid of the RP regen mechanic already.

I like the absorb component of AMS and feel it's an iconic component of an iconic ability, but you're right in that the extra runic power will always consume GCDs. So rather than AMS absorbs providing Runic Power, how about something like:

Anti-Magic Shell
Instant 45 sec cooldown
Surrounds the Death Knight in an Anti-Magic Shell, absorbing 75% of damage dealt by harmful spells (up to a maximum of 50% of the Death Knight's health) and preventing application of harmful magical effects. If the Anti-Magic Shell absorbs 25% of your maximum health, your Multistrike chance is increased by 50% for 10 secs. Lasts 5 sec.

[blackblade]

They said that non-rotational and fun abilities are exempt. The example they gave was hunters' Eyes of the Beast, saying they made a mistake removing it. Sure it wasn't particularly useful, but it wasn't used rotationally and it was fun.

Generally speaking, things you wouldn't normally be required to keep keybound are exempt. In the DK's case, things like Path of Frost and Death Gate are pretty safe from the trimming; things like Death Strike as Frost or Unholy may get trimmed and it's healing component moved into an existing ability. (maybe Obiliterate/Festering Strike while in Blood Presence, and the Glyph gives you the '25% heal' after a Honor/Xp granting kill outside of blood.)

It's more the stuff that you use maybe once in an entire raid, in a pinch, and you're not likely going to die without it but it sorta helps your healers/tanks out, or abilities with a large thematic overlap (look at Deep Wounds and Rend for a warrior example, and I'd guess that commanding shout and battle shout might get merged together too, giving you both AP and Stam)

[Kaleredar]

I don't think it would be too bad, at least on the PvE side of things. It would tech make it stronger but removes the defensive part of it.
However you aren't thinking of PvP. (I know in arena you can't use it, can you in rbg's)? The ability to swarm the enemy with a mass of mobs alongside having 30 more runic then before is a lot to balance. Also considering if it's instant there is no countering it, it would be nerfed damage wise to compensate.

It's disabled in Rated battlegrounds as well, and, frankly, what goes on in randoms stays in randoms, so...

They could "balance" it by making it a buff that summons ghouls temporarily for the same duration as the summon, so you don't instantly have them all there. And then they could maybe make it a magic buff, so it could be dispelled.

[Maxweii]

So basically you would take the strongest CD we have and because you don't like the channel, turn it into the biggest wasted global/10 min cd ever.
Seeing as they are also going to be so big in world pvp in that new area that has to be thought of too, where nothing is disabled. Even then I havnt seen a single person give a good compensation for losing the channel baseline as it helps balance the incoming damage you're about to do

[Firebert]

Even then I havnt seen a single person give a good compensation for losing the channel baseline as it helps balance the incoming damage you're about to do

AotD instant, but each AotD ghoul's melee attacks deal less and less damage per hit, 8 ghouls, 40s duration per ghoul, assuming 1s swing speed, so, bump their initial damage and reduce it by 0.3% per hit on an enemy target. Burst cooldown with taunt if you want it and good target-switching.

[Maxweii]

So again assuming with how you said bump their initial damage that makes it so they are either 1) Doing more then they currently are or 2) doing the same damage they currently are.
Either way no matter how you look at it it's still a huge amount of damage, instantly available, and causes confusion due to the number of mobs it summons. It's not like how Bloodlust is, as that speeds things up but isn't a huge "okay 20 things are guna hit you now" spell. Army is fine as it is, and the channel is paid off by the amount of damage it does. Until Blizz makes it so that it in fact doesn't, then they won't remove it.

[Unholyground]

So how would they buff dps if they remove Army? That is quite a big opener for us to lose and we don't have the greatest single target already

Honestly I would like them to put a similar mechanic to soul burn in for DK that change what certain abilities do, this way they could merge raise dead and army of the dead into one spell, when it is used it would swap the lesser one for the more powerful one then return to the regular ability. There are other abilities they could use this for too I am sure, they just have to merge them into abilities with no rune cost and the beefed up version would have the rune cost, only thing is all the beefed up versions would have to share the same rune cost to activate..

[Kaleredar]

So basically you would take the strongest CD we have and because you don't like the channel, turn it into the biggest wasted global/10 min cd ever.

It's still a DPS CD. I don't really see the issue, lest you feel blowing half your runes for the gain of 30 runic power once a fight suddenly crushes all semblance of balance in the game.

Seeing as they are also going to be so big in world pvp in that new area that has to be thought of too, where nothing is disabled. Even then I havnt seen a single person give a good compensation for losing the channel baseline as it helps balance the incoming damage you're about to do

I don't see a cast time on hunter's stampede. And that's on a CD that's half as long.

[Maxweii]

Stampede shouldn't be compared to Army as it summons half of what Army does. It's not a defensive CD, it's offensive (if you want to argue well it can be used for defensive purposes well yeah anything can but it offensive in nature). Stampede also doesn't give them say 50 focus, it just brings in the pets.
Again what a lot of people are ignoring is it is already a really well balanced spell (stand alone spell in its design i'm not talking about damage or such). It's the only three rune ability we have, while yes it's a dps CD it is also one of the strongest defensive CD's in a DK's kit, the ghouls can taunt and essentially "tank" adds to take weight off a tank in a really damage heavy add phase, in the pvp sense it creates confusion as it adds in so much more happening in that one area, it is interruptable so it is also accounted for with how much power it brings to the field.

If we lose the channel time on it, we lose power on it. Blizz would have taken the channel time out in Mists when they fixed it so it's worth casting in combat now, but hey didn't so I can't see them ever bothering it. Maybe they will tweak it with some of the level up perks in Mists, does x more damage raises x more ghouls, but they have left it alone like this because there's no reason to bother it. Really if you cant find ~3 seconds in a fight to channel a second cast of army then that is your problem. The only time I have ever had a problem with it was when I very stupidly cast army during Thok's non kite phase and got interrupted. That wasn't fun.

Honestly I would like them to put a similar mechanic to soul burn in for DK that change what certain abilities do, this way they could merge raise dead and army of the dead into one spell, when it is used it would swap the lesser one for the more powerful one then return to the regular ability. There are other abilities they could use this for too I am sure, they just have to merge them into abilities with no rune cost and the beefed up version would have the rune cost, only thing is all the beefed up versions would have to share the same rune cost to activate..

This would be really cool as an Unholy only mechanic. You could even tweak it as to where the "soulburn" can raise a short term second ghoul. Maybe could even make it a caster ghoul (because you know tons of people would love this).

[Kaleredar]

Stampede shouldn't be compared to Army as it summons half of what Army does. It's not a defensive CD, it's offensive (if you want to argue well it can be used for defensive purposes well yeah anything can but it offensive in nature). Stampede also doesn't give them say 50 focus, it just brings in the pets.

30 runic power =/= 50 focus anyway.

Also, AOTD summons 8 ghouls, not 10, and stampede summons 5 pets. If you want to be technical.

Again what a lot of people are ignoring is it is already a really well balanced spell (stand alone spell in its design i'm not talking about damage or such).

Because you pop it before the boss pull and that's it.

It's the only three rune ability we have, while yes it's a dps CD it is also one of the strongest defensive CD's in a DK's kit,

the damage reduction is really only useful for tanks, seeing as DPS DKs normally don't have too much of a dodge and parry chance, and AMS or icebound fortitude would generally be a better idea for them.

the ghouls can taunt and essentially "tank" adds to take weight off a tank in a really damage heavy add phase,

And this is dampened by said tank being able to continue to use death strike and so on how...?

in the pvp sense it creates confusion as it adds in so much more happening in that one area, it is interruptable so it is also accounted for with how much power it brings to the field.

Yeah, again, in random BGs. Blizzard's level of care about what goes down in them isn't tremendously huge. Especially something you really only get the chance to pop once or twice, and never in succession.

If we lose the channel time on it, we lose power on it. Blizz would have taken the channel time out in Mists when they fixed it so it's worth casting in combat now, but hey didn't so I can't see them ever bothering it.

You could claim that about any spell, and we know blizzard is changing several in WoD.

[Maxweii]

30 runic power =/= 50 focus anyway.

Also, AOTD summons 8 ghouls, not 10, and stampede summons 5 pets. If you want to be technical.

Because you pop it before the boss pull and that's it.

the damage reduction is really only useful for tanks, seeing as DPS DKs normally don't have too much of a dodge and parry chance, and AMS or icebound fortitude would generally be a better idea for them.

And this is dampened by said tank being able to continue to use death strike and so on how...?

Yeah, again, in random BGs. Blizzard's level of care about what goes down in them isn't tremendously huge. Especially something you really only get the chance to pop once or twice, and never in succession.

You could claim that about any spell, and we know blizzard is changing several in WoD.

As nit picky and annoying as this post is i'll answer one last time because obviously uou are just blindly going forth and saying it should be instant without considering possible ramifications or the fact it's fine as is.

In both cases, numbers were just being used figuratively. Wasn't trying to be technical at all so pointing this out does nothing. Replace the numbers I proposed with "x" there you go.

If you don't pop it a second time when you have the chance you are missing out on using a strong offensive CD and as such are misusing the spell. Many fights, especially if it's not on farm, go past the 6 min (HWF Galk's eye CD)/10 min mark allowing for a second use of Army.

Of course I was talking about in a tanking perspective, although unless you are talking about in very low gear situations it's a pretty decent cd as DPS as well. With my current sitting point of 38.00% parry and 3.02% non raid buffed I would say that a 41.02% damage reduction is pretty decent. Garrosh's whirling, Kil'ruk's Reave, pretty much most of the time in Spoils, War Song on Nazgrim, Siege mode on Jugg, Falling Ash on Dark Shammy, high stacks on Galk (and i'll cut it there cus you would less realistically have it twice if you don't have the H or HWF version of the trink off of Galk). Those are all times that as a DPS DK you could mitigate damage with it. While realistically most raids will either kill the boss before the 6 min mark, or even more realistically we just plain cast Army on CD to max it's dps, it's still there and could be used as a pretty sizeable damage reduction CD in a pinch (even more realistic on progression as taking less damage matter more there). IBF and AMS have their uses, but both have CD's and AMS is magic only.

Taking weight off the other tank helps just as much as you. I think also being able to stack a huge blood shield has it's uses as well if you know the adds won't die before army does.

If I was say a mage, facing a DK and I saw him casting army. I would be stupid to not interrupt it. Just because it doesn't happen often doesn't mean it's still not a point to look at. Shadow locking a dk sucks too as DC can be used defensively as well (god I hate getting MC'd on Garrosh).

Blizz changes a bunch of stuff every expan, just cus they are in WoD doesn't make it any different from Mists except for the fact they now take into account things people said during Mists. People have been complaining about the channel WAYYYYYYYYYY before Mists, so it's nothing new.

[Kaleredar]

As nit picky and annoying as this post is i'll answer one last time because obviously uou are just blindly going forth and saying it should be instant without considering possible ramifications or the fact it's fine as is.

In both cases, numbers were just being used figuratively. Wasn't trying to be technical at all so pointing this out does nothing. Replace the numbers I proposed with "x" there you go.

If you don't pop it a second time when you have the chance you are missing out on using a strong offensive CD

Making it less awkward to use does not negate the effectiveness of the spell and doesn't destroy the balance of the game, seeing as it's a one-off for most fights that's usually used pre-pull anyway. That is what I am asserting.

[OneSent]

My preferred method to fix GCD capping for DKs looks something like this.

1) Give all specs in the entire game a 1.5s base GCD (I know, this reverts our biggest win in MoP beta, but bear with me)

I main a rogue, and I'd give my left nut to have our GCD increased to 1.5 sec. I think it's the perfect amount of time to react to on-the-fly decisions and it feels very smooth.

When I saw that all DK specs/presences had changed to a 1 sec GCD in MoP, it completely killed the pace of the class and turned it into a frantic whack-a-mole style gameplay. I don't know wtf Blizzard was thinking with that change, to be honest.

[Schizoide]

I main a rogue, and I'd give my left nut to have our GCD increased to 1.5 sec. I think it's the perfect amount of time to react to on-the-fly decisions and it feels very smooth.

When I saw that all DK specs/presences had changed to a 1 sec GCD in MoP, it completely killed the pace of the class and turned it into a frantic whack-a-mole style gameplay. I don't know wtf Blizzard was thinking with that change, to be honest.

You should have kept reading. The GCD wouldn't stick at 1.5s, it would scale with haste. That way a DK in tier 19 would play the same as a DK in tier 17, just faster.

The DK 1s GCD change was a huge positive for our class, because as DKs geared up in previous expansions, they were always forced to switch to Unholy presence. That's the primary reason why they changed it.

I don't mind hitting buttons on a 1s cadence; I actually enjoy that, but obviously YMMV. Personally, I just don't want to be forced to hit a button every single single 1s "slot" or lose significant performance every time I have to move, or lose an instant of time on target, or use a utility ability, or scratch my nose. That's what GCD-locking is all about.