Avoidance or Mastery build

[amking92]

I want to do the best I can for dmg mitigation, which way should I go?

Avoidance or Mastery?

I'm doing Mastery now, I'm relatively close to where I need to be for parry/dodge according to



~170 Parry off from Optimal according to the spreadsheet, and I don't know any other shield enchant to use.

Some fights even in Normal I feel squishy.


Stats:

Base

Strength 19935
Agility 135
Stamina 45138
HP 780365
Mastery 13057

Defense

Armor 77214
Dodge 8421
Parry 4686
Block 27.11%


Would link my armor, but restricted in post. Need to post more.

[Illana]

it's more to do with your cooldown management rather than gear. You need to know the encounter mechanics and use your cooldowns accordingly.

[MaugrimEU]

Illana is right, by practice you can learn when to use your shield block, Barrier, Demo shout, Shield Wall, Demo banner etc

I'm Mastery build myself and I personally prefer it.

[Deleted]

With a masterybuild you get no rage, so theres close to nothing you can do to keep yourself alive.... But mastery is a more laidback you can't do anything but you take ok low dmg. Mastery prot warrior is equal to playing arms or frostmage. I would go for avoidance cause you get more active mitigation and more dmg. And I think someone calculated that you also get less dmg taken overall. And still have more rage to blocks etc, only problem is if you go avoidance you need to be more aware.... GL

[Anuibus]

With a masterybuild you get no rage, so theres close to nothing you can do to keep yourself alive....

With shield block up, you're almost guaranteed 10 rage from every blockable attack coming your way via critical block.

[Teye]

With shield block up, you're almost guaranteed 10 rage from every blockable attack coming your way via critical block.

And, as soon as you hit the gap where you can't SBlock for 6 seconds, you've got no rage for SBar and you're taking hits to the face. Not to mention, you'll be doing less dps than a fucking Disc Priest.

Really getting sick of the Mastery vs Avoidance argument. While its true that Mastery is "viable", it is not optimal. As Avoidance, with good play, you'll be looking at nearly 100% uptime between SBlock and SBar. The Mastery build simply can't do that, and does shit for damage. Its a no contest.

[Valech]

Pros and Cons:
Mastery:
+ Smoothest damage income over all
+ Strong Shieldblock
- Lacks damage
- Dependant on Shieldblock, which cannot be maintained 100%

Avoidance:
+ Lowest damage taken over all
+ Decent Damage
+ More rage income through Hold the Line and more enrage
- Needs decent cooldown management and boss knowledge


Everyone who makes this seem more complicated wants to sell you his viewpoint. Choose yourself.

[Artorius]

Or you can do this and be a hipster

[Zarahi]

I made sure my exp and hit was hard capped and gemmed for avoidance it feels like I have unlimited rages some times

[Anuibus]

And, as soon as you hit the gap where you can't SBlock for 6 seconds, you've got no rage for SBar and you're taking hits to the face. Not to mention, you'll be doing less dps than a fucking Disc Priest.

Shield block isn't required to block attacks, it just makes your rage gain subject to rng just like it is with an avoidance builds reliance on actually critting. not to mention you still have riposte as a mastery build, but you'll be running around 16% less crit, so you can still get rage from critical strikes. Also, you should have enough rage banked up to full shield barrier at least once.
Dps is the only real reason i see to go avoidance, as damage intake and rage generation will be similar when done correctly in both builds.

[Valech]

Dps is the only real reason i see to go avoidance, as damage intake and rage generation will be similar when done correctly in both builds.

That is simply not true.

[Anuibus]

That is simply not true.

It completely is.

[Valech]

It completely is.

I really do not enjoy doing this.

But let me shine some light on your statement from a few diffrent angles.

1) First let me attack the base of your argument: The execution of it itself. Whenever you a) feel entitled to make statements, which are not flagged as opinions but as facts and furthermore b) do not coincide with the commonly accepted approach of a problem please back your statements up with proof. Commonly accepted approaches bear the weight of high probability. You are right if you say, that many people believing in something do not turn this believe into a fact, but the probability that some of those people have thoroughly researched the matter before coming to a conclusion is high. That means, that even if you have thoroughly researched the matter and came to a diffrent conclusion the chance of you being right is fairly low. I assume you do not state that everyone else is wrong. That would be outragous. Thus, the burden of proof lies within you. So please provide some math you put into it.

2) Second, let me attack the content of your argument: you state a) that the rage generated and b) the damage taken is roughly the same. I ask you to rethink that. Your additional rage comes from critical blocks. To my knowledge the enrage through critical blocks has a short internal cooldown. That means, several critical blocks in a row will not net you 10 rage for each block. Additional rage for the avoidance build is generated through higher critchance of abilities, which procc enrage and a significantly inreased amount of revenge proccs. While I do not know if there is an internal cooldown for enrage proccs through critical active abilities like devestate, I am quite sure, that the rage generated through revenge alone outweights the rage generated through your critical blocks. This leads me to b: Since it seems like we have quite a bit more rage to our distribution we are able to bleed that excess rage into Shieldbarriers. Also, you are comparing taking-no-damage to take-reduced-damage. Furthermore, while my avoidance has an uptime of 100%, Shieldblock cannot be pushed far beyond the 60% benchmark realistically.

3) Third, let me attack your argument from within a.k.a. even if: Your words are, that avoidance and mastery are en par with avoidance having an advantage in terms of damage. Fine. EVEN IF that was true (please note the conditional), why would you pick the mastery over avoidance if avoidance has clearly one advantage more? Tank damage is an actual issue these days. The more damage a tank can provide, the shorter the fight turns out. Even if it´s only 20 seconds less, it might be those 20 seconds in which shit could hit the fan. In other words: Whenever I have the pleasure to tank with a mastery prot warrior on my side and we wipe at 1% I think: Sir, this is your fault.


tl;dr version:
1) prove what you say cause most people state the opposite and "most people" tend to be correct
2) your statement is already in trouble if you reflect logically upon it, it wouldn´t stand for long if you did actual math on it
3) Your own words make avoidance seem favorable due to higher damage and equality regarding damage taken and rage generated.

Possible counterarguments and why they suck:
"I can generate rage through crits, too!" -sucks because I can generate rage through critical blocks, too.
"But it feels better/plays smoother/etc." -sucks because opinion.
"But it works for me" - sucks because I never said it isn´t viable, I said it´s just not as good as the other thing.
"But player xyz from worldrank 5 does the same" - Weight of probability comes with quantity.
"NO, U bring the proof" - Read (1) again. Try understanding it this time.

Also, it is fucking late over here. I will most likely edit the shit out of this comment tomorrow.

And actually I did enjoy doing this.

[amking92]

Pros and Cons:
Mastery:
+ Smoothest damage income over all
+ Strong Shieldblock
- Lacks damage
- Dependant on Shieldblock, which cannot be maintained 100%

Avoidance:
+ Lowest damage taken over all
+ Decent Damage
+ More rage income through Hold the Line and more enrage
- Needs decent cooldown management and boss knowledge


Everyone who makes this seem more complicated wants to sell you his viewpoint. Choose yourself.

All it seems like Mastery is so subpar when you put it in that picture.. I'm doing 10M I thought it changed when I'm doing 10M v 25M.

[Deleted]

Yes indded if you lack decent cooldown management and boss knowledge. Materybuild is what you should go for '-.-

[Deleted]

Yes indded if you lack decent cooldown management and boss knowledge. Learning the fights is what you should go for '-.-

FYP

Tanking these days is all about avoiding the big hits/spikes and doing everything to do as much damage as possible (even more important in 10m since your dps makes up a much bigger portion of the raid dps).

Use active mitigation for special attacks and CD for when you don't (basically). Do you have spare rage and Shieldblock charges then use even more active mitigation.

[Anuibus]

prove what you say cause most people state the opposite and "most people" tend to be correct

this is using just the default action priority list
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...avoidance.html
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...tsmastery.html
mastery build takes 1300 more damage each second of the fight, with 3600 more hps via the 2pc to offset that. The mastery build only gets .2 less rage per second, while taking minimized spike damage.

Your own words make avoidance seem favorable due to higher damage and equality regarding damage taken and rage generated.

I never said a mastery build was preferred, I simply said that dps aside, the 2 will perform almost equally.

[Valech]

this is using just the default action priority list
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...avoidance.html
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...tsmastery.html
mastery build takes 1300 more damage each second of the fight, with 3600 more hps via the 2pc to offset that. The mastery build only gets .2 less rage per second, while taking minimized spike damage.

Did you prefer parry while going for avoidance or did you try to balance parry and dodge?

[Heladys]

I really do not enjoy doing this.

But let me shine some light on your statement from a few diffrent angles.

1) First let me attack the base of your argument: The execution of it itself. Whenever you a) feel entitled to make statements, which are not flagged as opinions but as facts and furthermore b) do not coincide with the commonly accepted approach of a problem please back your statements up with proof. Commonly accepted approaches bear the weight of high probability. You are right if you say, that many people believing in something do not turn this believe into a fact, but the probability that some of those people have thoroughly researched the matter before coming to a conclusion is high. That means, that even if you have thoroughly researched the matter and came to a diffrent conclusion the chance of you being right is fairly low. I assume you do not state that everyone else is wrong. That would be outragous. Thus, the burden of proof lies within you. So please provide some math you put into it.

2) Second, let me attack the content of your argument: you state a) that the rage generated and b) the damage taken is roughly the same. I ask you to rethink that. Your additional rage comes from critical blocks. To my knowledge the enrage through critical blocks has a short internal cooldown. That means, several critical blocks in a row will not net you 10 rage for each block. Additional rage for the avoidance build is generated through higher critchance of abilities, which procc enrage and a significantly inreased amount of revenge proccs. While I do not know if there is an internal cooldown for enrage proccs through critical active abilities like devestate, I am quite sure, that the rage generated through revenge alone outweights the rage generated through your critical blocks. This leads me to b: Since it seems like we have quite a bit more rage to our distribution we are able to bleed that excess rage into Shieldbarriers. Also, you are comparing taking-no-damage to take-reduced-damage. Furthermore, while my avoidance has an uptime of 100%, Shieldblock cannot be pushed far beyond the 60% benchmark realistically.

3) Third, let me attack your argument from within a.k.a. even if: Your words are, that avoidance and mastery are en par with avoidance having an advantage in terms of damage. Fine. EVEN IF that was true (please note the conditional), why would you pick the mastery over avoidance if avoidance has clearly one advantage more? Tank damage is an actual issue these days. The more damage a tank can provide, the shorter the fight turns out. Even if it´s only 20 seconds less, it might be those 20 seconds in which shit could hit the fan. In other words: Whenever I have the pleasure to tank with a mastery prot warrior on my side and we wipe at 1% I think: Sir, this is your fault.


tl;dr version:
1) prove what you say cause most people state the opposite and "most people" tend to be correct
2) your statement is already in trouble if you reflect logically upon it, it wouldn´t stand for long if you did actual math on it
3) Your own words make avoidance seem favorable due to higher damage and equality regarding damage taken and rage generated.

Possible counterarguments and why they suck:
"I can generate rage through crits, too!" -sucks because I can generate rage through critical blocks, too.
"But it feels better/plays smoother/etc." -sucks because opinion.
"But it works for me" - sucks because I never said it isn´t viable, I said it´s just not as good as the other thing.
"But player xyz from worldrank 5 does the same" - Weight of probability comes with quantity.
"NO, U bring the proof" - Read (1) again. Try understanding it this time.

Also, it is fucking late over here. I will most likely edit the shit out of this comment tomorrow.

And actually I did enjoy doing this.

I love this guy.

[Promdates]

Did you prefer parry while going for avoidance or did you try to balance parry and dodge?

Give Parry the edge. The slightly more avoidance you'd gain by balancing the two doesn't outweigh the amount of damage you'd gain by using more Parry and going for Hold the Line glyph.