Best tactic for 25-man normal Garrosh w/ low DPS

[britishbubba]

3 is common, I've personally had 5 and I've heard about kills which went into a third transition. The fight gets much easier if you can kill him in 2, but that's not how the fight was designed and it's not impossible to go into a third phase 2 sub-phase and still walk out with a kill. Whirls are definitely the worst part for 25s, but you can kite several spawns of them and they are spaced far enough apart that you only need to rotate 4 or 5 cooldowns.

I would never want to deal with that many empowered whirls even in a group of main raiders, let alone a group of pugs.

[Adhemar]

Thanks Adhemar for the video and in-depth description. We'll try both methods and see which one works for us the best.

You're welcome, and good luck.

The stacking method could work great as we have the CDs from various classes, however if CDs are used for whirlings and weapons... How would one go about the dmg in realms, other then make damn sure that all get the buff?

This depends on how bad your raid is at getting these buffs. If you use up all your damage mitigation CDs during whirls and weapons, you still have plenty of healing throughput CDs (tranquility, healing tide) and surely there are some of these from DPS characters that could be used to help out in transitions (Elemental or Enhancement Shaman Ancestral Guidance is great for this as it does not cost the raid any DPS time and can easily add up to 3-4m healing done).

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you have ~3 DPS dedicated to removing them, generally high ST damage or cleave with no positional requirements (Destro locks, for example) or you have everyone with a dot multidot the weapon, which is esp good if you've got classes like warlocks and spriest, who can score procs off the the extra ticks.

This is a good suggestion. Possibly even better for your raid group than the two methods I mentioned, Sonnillon. This method works even if the three people placing the weapons don't always kill one weapon before the next one spawns, if you have multi-DoT classes they can be working on 2-3 weapons at a time and any they don't kill will be very small, anyway. Just make sure you have a way to deal with MCs (either by having them re-stack on the boss or by having people assigned to go interrupt them) and make sure they get well clear of the raid group before each weapon comes out.



Off-topic ranting begins here:
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He asked what could be done to kill the boss with all the whirls and a third transition. It's not condescending saying "make sure people do proper dps".

Saying something that huge portions of the people attempting normal Garrosh have problems with is "hardly difficult" or that the only option for a group that can't push Garrosh to Phase 3 with two or fewer empowered whirls because your group of heroic-experienced raiders could do it that way, or saying that any group in 560 gear should be able to kill Garrosh without any problems because that's "plenty" to bridge any skill gap is condescension, and your posts here practically drip elitism. On top of that, the first thing you said of any usefulness in three posts now was the last part about the damage reduction debuff, and even that came with a nice dose of condescension ("slacking" heals) to make sure we all know how much better you are than the rest of the WoW population.

They've cleared 13 normal modes - their dps should be more than fine to manage not getting a third intermission.

Really? And yet, it was not ... this impossible circumstance astounds me! Do explain. My 10-man raid can kill Thok, Siegecrafter and Paragons while carrying 12-15 players who don't know the fight, don't know their class and frequently die to the most basic mechanics (literally put down Paragons with 9 people alive for half the fight). Killing the 13 normal bosses prior to Garrosh (especially on 25) proves nothing about a raid's ability to kill Garrosh. Garrosh is a large step up in both raw output requirements and execution requirements.

The main issue is that if the DPS is low enough that you GET a third intermission at 30-35%, chances are that the amount of damage you end up doing to the boss in between killing adds after each whirl will see you having another 2-3 whirls after the third intermission. Then another 2-3 in the last phase. Surviving 7-9 empowered whirls is *difficult* in a pug. The best bet is to just do more damage and make sure everyone performs. There's no "magic trick".

Actually, there are several "magic tricks" to Garrosh and if DPS is so low that you're getting a third intermission, it's probably a strategy/execution problem more than a raw-output problem (headless chickens fleeing from adds and desecrates do very little DPS and people out of position when MCed messes everyone else up). It's possible to get a third whirl, go to the third intermission and then push Garrosh down to 10% before he does another whirl, ending with 3 whirls in phase 2 and only the 2-3 more you're going to get out of phase 3. And, in fact, most kills that were done without much SoO gear were probably done this way. "You can only have two whirls OR YOU'RE GOING TO DIE" is a myth. Of course this fight gets significantly harder without DPS to overpower it, but that's not really useful advice in this context.

As for desecrates, as has been explained, you'll never really "run out of room" even if you try to fill the room up if you can skip the third intermission. It will make whirls difficult due to the timing (whirl+desec right after or before), though.

Thanks for repeating what I already said? Not sure what this comment is even doing here.

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I would never want to deal with that many empowered whirls even in a group of main raiders, let alone a group of pugs.

Who said anything about wanting to? For some of us, kicking low DPS (especially in guild raids) is not the "go to" answer to every problem and we work with what we have. I'm pretty sure our first Garrosh kill in 10-man came with 5 (or maybe even 6 after people died during phase 3), and we definitely got 5 while carrying PUGs in 25-man. The point is that it's possible and not necessarily all that hard and that the "two whirls" benchmark is not set in stone. Of course stacking your raid with high DPS makes the fight trivial, but it can be killed without being trivialized.

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Garrosh normal is a LARGE step up from the other 13 bosses on normal. I treat it like the first heroic encountered in SoO, it is that much of a step up from the rest of the instance.

Since there are more 25-man kills of Heroic Immerseus than Normal Garrosh, I'd pretty much have to agree with you on that.

[Deleted]

If you have any logs, I could statically analyze them for you and perhaps give you a more logical answer because it's kind of hard to tell without seeing the numbers myself.

[Dracodraco]

Saying something that huge portions of the people attempting normal Garrosh have problems with is "hardly difficult" or that the only option for a group that can't push Garrosh to Phase 3 with two or fewer empowered whirls because your group of heroic-experienced raiders could do it that way, or saying that any group in 560 gear should be able to kill Garrosh without any problems because that's "plenty" to bridge any skill gap is condescension, and your posts here practically drip elitism. On top of that, the first thing you said of any usefulness in three posts now was the last part about the damage reduction debuff, and even that came with a nice dose of condescension ("slacking" heals) to make sure we all know how much better you are than the rest of the WoW population.

It's the truth, though. I pug this on multiple characters by now, and it's easily done with groups in 550-560 ilvl. It is enough to bridge any "skill gap" you might think there is between a pug and an "organised" group. As for condescension, believe what you want - personally, I'm not going to sugarcoat things. If they're geared above what the boss was intended for (545 or so ilvl), then there's no reason to be lacking output - not for healers, nor dps. If they are, it's a performance issue in one way or another (not using CD's correctly, putting too much singletarget dmg on weapons over multidotting, not using correct DPS-priorities, etc).

Really? And yet, it was not ... this impossible circumstance astounds me! Do explain. My 10-man raid can kill Thok, Siegecrafter and Paragons while carrying 12-15 players who don't know the fight, don't know their class and frequently die to the most basic mechanics (literally put down Paragons with 9 people alive for half the fight). Killing the 13 normal bosses prior to Garrosh (especially on 25) proves nothing about a raid's ability to kill Garrosh. Garrosh is a large step up in both raw output requirements and execution requirements.

It wasn't because people weren't playing properly. There's not really a bigger dps requirement on garrosh than other boss fights, and it's a lot more simple mechanics wise. That you can faceroll the first 13 but not garrosh probably has to do with the one hard thing in the entire fight, considering it seems that the 12-15 players you are carrying probably has issues with individual responsibility - dealing with the empowered whirlings. The ones you want to skip by doing proper damage.
Again, if you think the DPS/HPS/Performance requirements are much harder on Garrosh than the previous 13 bosses, I have to dissappoint you. Garrosh is slightly harder due to the empowered whirls as that's the only real "raid coordination" ability in all of the normal modes.

Actually, there are several "magic tricks" to Garrosh and if DPS is so low that you're getting a third intermission, it's probably a strategy/execution problem more than a raw-output problem (headless chickens fleeing from adds and desecrates do very little DPS and people out of position when MCed messes everyone else up). It's possible to get a third whirl, go to the third intermission and then push Garrosh down to 10% before he does another whirl, ending with 3 whirls in phase 2 and only the 2-3 more you're going to get out of phase 3. And, in fact, most kills that were done without much SoO gear were probably done this way. "You can only have two whirls OR YOU'RE GOING TO DIE" is a myth. Of course this fight gets significantly harder without DPS to overpower it, but that's not really useful advice in this context.

I never said that it wasn't possible to do all the whirls. I said that your first choise should be to try and get people to get their output to a level where you shouldn't have to, because if they can't, every whirl is going to end up taking almost all of the boss DPS time away, leading to a painfully long fight that is prone to be messed up by one add killed too close to another. It is usefull advice, insofar that the fact that they've killed every other normal mode and has the approx gear level of a guild starting heroics means that their issue is dps not doing enough damage to successfully make the fight easier.

Since there are more 25-man kills of Heroic Immerseus than Normal Garrosh, I'd pretty much have to agree with you on that.

You can put 30 or so atleast of those "more HC immerseus than normal garrosh"-kills down on guilds that transistioned from 10 man heroic 14/14 guilds into 25 man heroics that cleared the entire raid on 25 their first reset (thus never gaining a 25 man garrosh kill).

[britishbubba]

Who said anything about wanting to? For some of us, kicking low DPS (especially in guild raids) is not the "go to" answer to every problem and we work with what we have. I'm pretty sure our first Garrosh kill in 10-man came with 5 (or maybe even 6 after people died during phase 3), and we definitely got 5 while carrying PUGs in 25-man. The point is that it's possible and not necessarily all that hard and that the "two whirls" benchmark is not set in stone. Of course stacking your raid with high DPS makes the fight trivial, but it can be killed without being trivialized.

I never said kick the low dps, I said tell them to pick up their shit and do the damage they should be. A group of 550 people should not be getting 5 emp whirls. If they are it means some people aren't carrying their weight.

If you get near a 3rd transition, that's the fight telling you that your group needs to pick up their DPS. You are not intended to get 3 transitions. Hell on heroic you'd wipe long before you even got a chance to get a 3rd transition.

[Sonnillon]

The funniest thing was that MC was not an issue, heck even killing the adds from first emp. w. wasn't as issue... Just the damage to raid was.

I don't run logs outside of guild raids, but if this still keeps to be a problem I can log.

Thanks for the discussion and advice. Few notes though to add.

You could also try one tank, in the crane temple just have everyone go one way, kill that large add, loop and kill the other. That will give you an additional DPS (assuming one of your tanks has a DPS set).

Probably will only attempt it when I have my own main for the boss available. But it is the last resort to try out afaik.

Secondly, If your DPS is low, you might wanna time your runs. if you're getting to P2-second transition at the 10m mark, you should lust on the pull.

We did lust on pull after few wipes and it seemed to be better and we most probably have it up for p3 if we get there

Also when you come back after first intermission, there will be 4 weapons, right after that last weapon lands he does a whirl, in the stack method you need to ensure you have 2+ raid cools to survive that.

How strong CDs are we speaking about devo+tranq for instance, or should like a Smoke bomb be added to the mix?

I think for starters I'm gonna go with just DoT (not that many wlocks or spriest around, but anything should be good enough) the weapons in p2, which seems the thing simplest to accomplish and take it from there. Leaving aside the headless chicken - HALP I HAVE AN ADD ON ME, gonna run away from the rest - part, how should the moving and splitting be handled during emp. w. so that people won't get too far from healers? Assign "groups" for people who they should stick near to when emp. w. is incoming? Even when the tank picks the adds up after 2nd or so emp. w? Cause the second whirl's damage and add dmg was the one which killed some of the people.

It's the truth, though. I pug this on multiple characters by now, and it's easily done with groups in 550-560 ilvl.

That I know myself, used to fill in spots in guild raid and carry 1-2 people in our guild 10-man

I'm not going to sugarcoat things. If they're geared above what the boss was intended for (545 or so ilvl), then there's no reason to be lacking output - not for healers, nor dps. If they are, it's a performance issue in one way or another (not using CD's correctly, putting too much singletarget dmg on weapons over multidotting, not using correct DPS-priorities, etc).

You are can be right about this, no argument, but over half the people along so "proper" raiding for the first time. Not and excuse though ^^

[Deja Thoris]

The bottom line here is you can't strategise for a fight where people aren't meeting the dps checks. Consider the empowered whirls a soft enrage. Get too many and all your time is spent managing adds and not hitting the boss, not to mention the hell it becomes for your healers.

When you look at a problem you look at the root cause of that and manage it. You don't treat the symptoms.

The root cause is either undergeared people: Solution, get more gear. That's a problem that fixes itself with time.

or

People aren't doing damage requisite with their gear level. Solution: Get them to improve. To do this logs are needed, most dps issues I've seen are due to bad buff uptimes probably from people tracking stuff badly. Getting an extra 10-15% out of the poor performers is usually as easy as having a weakaura scream at somebody that their Bomb isn't on the target or they need to evocate.

[Deleted]

As a healer standpoint there is not very much to heal other times except Whirls and Transmission (if people don't get dmg redu bubble).

So just need to have a good cd rotation for whirls and on 25man this shouldn't be too hard, just have to make sure people use them when they are asked, so best way is to assign cds for each whirls and transmissions if needed. Dmg to raid is so small other times that if you have proper cd rotation you can drop 1-2 healers more if dps is lacking.

Even on HC the norm is to do this with 3-4 healers as more is not needed and the extra dps just makes the fight so much easier.

[Dracodraco]

As a healer standpoint there is not very much to heal other times except Whirls and Transmission (if people don't get dmg redu bubble).

So just need to have a good cd rotation for whirls and on 25man this shouldn't be too hard, just have to make sure people use them when they are asked, so best way is to assign cds for each whirls and transmissions if needed. Dmg to raid is so small other times that if you have proper cd rotation you can drop 1-2 healers more if dps is lacking.

Even on HC the norm is to do this with 3-4 healers as more is not needed and the extra dps just makes the fight so much easier.

To elaborate on the "assign cds" thing, you'd want 1x healing and 1x raidwide reduction/mitigation cd. EG -
Whirl 1:
Devo+Tranq.
Whirl 2:
Rally+demobanner+healing tide totem.
Whirl 3:
Devo2+Spriest and ele shaman healing CDS.
(just as an example, it'd obviously depend on your group setup).

The whirls won't come more often than 3 in 3 minutes unless you push the boss RIGHT after a whirl in P2->3 - it's one every 45 seconds, with intermissions happening every 2:30 minutes. This means you can basicly cycle the same 3 sets of cds for every whirl. Every other CD can be spent keeping the raid alive in the intermission, or if you stack up, during the desecrates. As previously mentioned, you want to make sure your healers save their personal throughput cds for the intermission (avenging wrath, spiritwalkers grace, tree of life if spec'd etc) as they usually last *alot* longer than the 5-second burst window that the whirl consists of. Popping AW to heal for 5 seconds out of the 20 it's up for is pretty much a waste, but it'll be fully used in the realm.