[BALANCE] WTB more thoughtful and fun Eclipse gameplay (suggestions within)

[Pippilongear]

I think if they gave Soul of the Forest a one minute cooldown this would give much more flexible on demand single target or aoe burst......It would be awesome if we could use soul of the forest as a CD and get rid of the rng behind it to help be in the right eclipse at the right time without losing too much nature's grace.

Officerlahey - that is another interesting suggestion imo. It would not be as flexible since by tying it to a talent you need to forego other interesting talents but at least it would be a choice, whereas currently there really isn't any.

My whole point of this thread is that moonkin should at least *have the choice* of whether to tradeoff damage now for damage later.

[lappee]

My whole point of this thread is that moonkin should at least *have the choice* of whether to tradeoff damage now for damage later.

We already have that, the fact that you dont like it is your own problem

[Pippilongear]

We already have that, the fact that you dont like it is your own problem

Yes, and it is why I created this post - I don't believe that "stalling" our eclipse rotation by casting non-energy generating spells is currently a real choice at all. Besides delaying your next eclipse by 1 or 2 casts max, no one actually delays eclipse by any significant amount of time - hence there is "no viable option". Sure you *could* just sit there staring at the boss doing zero dps for 10 seconds, but why would you think that was a viable option?

Every class spec "has the option" to sit there and autoattack the boss waiting for the time to start dps, the difference is that some specs have the ability to make the tradeoff between less damage now for more damage later - moonkin does not have that. Moonkin are able to do less damage now to do the exact same damage later - that is the difference.

The funny part about this is that if you love transitioning eclipses quickly and not "storing" energy as I laid out in my suggestion you could just continue to do that without missing a beat. This would just give you that option if you chose - knowing that you will be lowering your overall dps by doing so but giving you *more* flexibility than you have now.

My issue with thoughtful gameplay and choice is only reinforced when you look at our level 100 talents as they currently exist: 2 out of the 3 talents are more-or-less passive: Equinox and Sunfall (I don't consider hitting Starfall/Sunfall on CD very thoughtful although the trolls will most likely disagree)

[Deleted]

I like eclipse the way it is right now and I think its possible atm to delay single/multitarget burst a little bit. I remember Spine where I was literally waiting before Lunar if the tendon was about to get exposed soon and only cast unclipsed starfire on the big add. Also moving between eclipses got so much faster with MoP that delaying would feel clunky instead of just pushing to the next eclipse.

Or If I stick to your idea. Make uneclipsed spells charge our active shrooms to deal 100% of the dmg dealt from the uneclipsed spells as extra stormdmg (So it benefits from both eclipses ) when they blow up. The extra dmg is devided through the amount of targets (so it wouldn't be super op for multitarget) and maybe capped somehow.



OT:
The only thing I don't like is that RNG in SS proccs. I mean it's RNG if it crits and then its again RNG if it proccs. Couldn't we get a stack for every crit and every third/fourth/whatever stack gives a instant SS.

[Juvencus]

My idea is make SotF a small cd that gives you a drop-down-menu spell like the old totem-sets shamans had. Put 2 buttons one for each Eclipse that share the cd. That way we have a specific eclipse on demand, no matter the current bar direction.

With this you get to keep your eclipse momentum without casting "wrong" spells and you have Lunar or Solar on demand for burst or AoE. I guess 1.5-2min cd would be fine.

[Alzu]

Yes, and it is why I created this post - I don't believe that "stalling" our eclipse rotation by casting non-energy generating spells is currently a real choice at all.

I have to say that this is rare but a good example is on Garrosh's first transition. I gladly wait to enter a new lunar eclipse just to get a fresh NG+Starfall for the transition instead of risking of sitting in the dead zone even for a few seconds inside.

[Aboubacar]

My idea is make SotF a small cd that gives you a drop-down-menu spell like the old totem-sets shamans had. Put 2 buttons one for each Eclipse that share the cd. That way we have a specific eclipse on demand, no matter the current bar direction.

With this you get to keep your eclipse momentum without casting "wrong" spells and you have Lunar or Solar on demand for burst or AoE. I guess 1.5-2min cd would be fine.

This is good idea but having 2 buttons for one talent would kind of suck. I don't see why they don't turn the current version of Soul of the Forest (100 energy in the current arrow direction) into a 1 minute CD. It would have to be a low CD to compete with FoN or Incarn anyway.

[Juvencus]

This is good idea but having 2 buttons for one talent would kind of suck. I don't see why they don't turn the current version of Soul of the Forest (100 energy in the current arrow direction) into a 1 minute CD. It would have to be a low CD to compete with FoN or Incarn anyway.

Well the reason I suggested 2 buttons and consolidated in the portals style button is to not create confusion with a talent giving 2 separate buttons. Problem with 100 energy is that it doesn't solve the issue with " I want to go back to the eclipse I just left"

[Pippilongear]

That way we have a specific eclipse on demand, no matter the current bar direction.

With this you get to keep your eclipse momentum without casting "wrong" spells and you have Lunar or Solar on demand for burst or AoE. I guess 1.5-2min cd would be fine.

Frankly I would be fine with them scrapping Celestial Alignment and replacing it with this version and then have the SotF talent make it so that your "new" Celestial Alignment spell is on a much lower cooldown (like 1.5 or 2 mins vs. the 3mins currently).

[lappee]

Yes, and it is why I created this post - I don't believe that "stalling" our eclipse rotation by casting non-energy generating spells is currently a real choice at all. Besides delaying your next eclipse by 1 or 2 casts max, no one actually delays eclipse by any significant amount of time - hence there is "no viable option". Sure you *could* just sit there staring at the boss doing zero dps for 10 seconds, but why would you think that was a viable option?

People do stall eclipses for that long. the problem nowdays lies in the fact that theres no real need (because over gearing and such). Its a very valid option to stall the eclipses and you wont be doing 0 dps, unless you just afk

Every class spec "has the option" to sit there and autoattack the boss waiting for the time to start dps, the difference is that some specs have the ability to make the tradeoff between less damage now for more damage later - moonkin does not have that. Moonkin are able to do less damage now to do the exact same damage later - that is the difference.

I cant think of any class that has the option you want moonkins to have. Every class can stall their burst, none will get that burst to be greater than their normal rotation burst by stalling it.

The funny part about this is that if you love transitioning eclipses quickly and not "storing" energy as I laid out in my suggestion you could just continue to do that without missing a beat. This would just give you that option if you chose - knowing that you will be lowering your overall dps by doing so but giving you *more* flexibility than you have now.

Funny part about this is that if you want to stall your burst, then go ahead. You have the option to do so.

My issue with thoughtful gameplay and choice is only reinforced when you look at our level 100 talents as they currently exist: 2 out of the 3 talents are more-or-less passive: Equinox and Sunfall (I don't consider hitting Starfall/Sunfall on CD very thoughtful although the trolls will most likely disagree)

If pressing a button at a specific time (aka when it awards the best dps) is not "thoughtful" gameplay, then theres no such thing really.

[Aboubacar]

Eclipse power is probably the most unique and interesting secondary resource in the game atm. Most other resources are too similar to combo points. The "flow" of needing/wanting to continue to cycle back and forth for maximum DPS is interesting, because if you have the foresight to "stall" your eclipse at the right time (as simple as this sounds) it's very rewarding in terms of actually killing a boss and punishes players that cannot control themselves and want to do the same thing every fight or every attempt.

I'm sure the spec isn't perfect and some improvements could be made by Blizzard, but changing the resource really isn't the first place I'd ask them to go. Even the tier 15 talents need more change than eclipse imo. I mean wild charge is a joke, right? A global to jump back ~10yrds?

[lappee]

I'm sure the spec isn't perfect and some improvements could be made by Blizzard, but changing the resource really isn't the first place I'd ask them to go. Even the tier 15 talents need more change than eclipse imo. I mean wild charge is a joke, right? A global to jump back ~10yrds?

Wild charge is actually quite good, the jump back is just one of the many uses. its useful talent in pve but extremely good in pvp too

[Aboubacar]

Back in Cata you could literally plan out where you would be ~ 5 -10 minutes into the fight because the rotation was way slower and not much starsurge proc rng. Yor'shaj for example I think if you went toward lunar on the pull you'd be in solar for every time the blobs hit the boss.

Now you have to react more if you know there's 20sec to p1 transition on garrosh u can hold your starfall and sit pre lunar/solar and hold engi gloves as well and you will have very significant burst w/o using CDs so you beat 25 energy and only need to interrupt 3 casts. The resource is more punishing than orbs/combo points and definitely burning embers, but it's not that hard to make work.

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Wild charge is actually quite good, the jump back is just one of the many uses. its useful talent in pve but extremely good in pvp too

in what situations? in pvp ive only seen it used to on Z-axis maps to jump up to a mushroom on the bridge on blade's edge.

[Glurp]

in what situations? in pvp ive only seen it used to on Z-axis maps to jump up to a mushroom on the bridge on blade's edge.

Displacer beast costs 2 globals. Wild Charge is superior to Displacer Beast in PvE.

[Gothmog]

Grand majority of responses to his well fleshed out idea of adding depth to our spec makes me a sad boomkin. Is it necessary to be offensive, agressive and dismissive? You guys are the making of our community and if I saw this thread from an outsider's perspective, not having any clue about the spec, guess what? I wouldn't want to join it, it sounds cutthroat.


Now, as to what the OP is suggesting and everyone is bashing on him.

Resource system.

Most DPS classes and especially tanks have a -choice- in storing and using their resources, be it runic power, holy power, chi or embers. They have a finite (and usually quite small) pool they can fill and then unleash/empty it rapidly in order to do some burst damage when it's needed.
Take Windwalker monks for example - they're newest dps spec in the game and they are fully based around Tigereye brew stacks, which is their primary resource and is providing their only untalented dps cooldown. They're based on it and a lot of other classes have been brought in to reflect that design philosophy. We have had it since WotlK, with first incarnation of eclipse system. Eclipsed Wrath was critting, eclipsed Starfire was haste'd (iirc). We were always opting to trigger only one. Blizzard didn't like that onesidedness and stuck us in an unflexible pendulum eclipse system. We lost the choice. We retained control over the timing, but the more we delayed, the more total dps we lost, while other classes slowly gathered momentum in the new resource-for-dps paradigm.
None of them LOSE single target dps doing so.

We do, because eclipse isn't a "pool" of resources, especially not in relationship with NG. To provide burst at a designated time, you need to lose dps in the previous X seconds.


In this way, we are outdated, we are outclassed and our choice/decision to bank resources to burst priority targets in a short time window costs us overall dps.

The OP suggested an eclipse-entwined mechanic that would give us that flexibility most other DPS have. I will not comment on his method of achieving that, but I for one, am strongly in favour of us having that meaningful choice of managing a pool of resources.


Also, please, before you comment, read again and make sure you've understood what was written. Reading comprehention from some posters in this thread is lacking.

[Deleted]

Gothmog summed up my feelings exactly, and made the point I believe OP was trying to make rather well.

[lappee]

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When it comes to other classes, their resources like rage are small pooled. if they want to get the smart max burst, they have to wait with some abilities etc. just like we have to wait with eclipse and starfall.

Changing eclipse system for something different is fine, taking away the dps loss from stalling is not.

[Deleted]

When it comes to other classes, their resources like rage are small pooled. if they want to get the smart max burst, they have to wait with some abilities etc. just like we have to wait with eclipse and starfall.

Changing eclipse system for something different is fine, taking away the dps loss from stalling is not.

Wut. I'm not sure you understand the difference between those 2 resources.

If you wait with rage, or energy, but don't cap on them - it's not a dps loss. It's a dps loss now but the same dps overall. Which is different from moonkins who suffer from a dps loss now for a dps gain later, but lower dps overall. Do you see the difference? I'll try and give an example comparing to warriors, who can store up to 5 overpower procs.

Scenario 1, no timing required:
Warrior keeps using his Overpower procs as they pop up, doing 100 DPS.
Moonkin keeps using his Eclipse as normal, doing 100 DPS.

Scenario 2, need to be ready to burst an add:
Warrior stacks up 5 Overpower procs, doing 50 DPS. He then dumps all 5 overpowers into the add doing 150 DPS. Overall doing 100 DPS.
Moonkin stalls eclipse, doing 50 DPS. He then hits Eclipse, which is just his normal DPS, and does 100 DPS. Overall doing 75 DPS.

Because we can't store up our Eclipse power, stalling an Eclipse lowers our total Eclipse uptime and Nature's Grace uptime. In the example above, the warrior will use the same number of Overpowers regardless of the scenario, however the moonkin will have a lower uptime on Nature's Grace.

[lappee]

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I never said the two resources would be the same. Rage/energy are the equivalent of mana.

Moonkins need to stall eclipse and starfall for max on demand damage.
Warriors need to stall abilities, such as colossus smash, for max on demand damage
Rogues need to stall combo points for max on demand damage
Monks need to stall tigereye brew and chi for max on demand damage
Priests need to stall shadow orbs for max on demand damage

and the list continues with every class.

Stalling will always be a dps loss, some classes can do it "better" but lose dps by not having procs etc for it (eg. destro locks usually burst all embers when procs are up, when they do this without them, its a dps)

[Ereshmilor]

Stalling will always be a dps loss, some classes can do it "better" but lose dps by not having procs etc for it (eg. destro locks usually burst all embers when procs are up, when they do this without them, its a dps)

While this is true, some classes are way better than Moonkins, because they can delay the "burst" in their rotation by a few seconds, without losing overall DPS. But this was mentioned several times before.


I like the OP's idea, but i find it a bit complex. It would be easier if you can just raise the cap with casting no power generation casts, e.g. casting a Starfire post-Solar will set the triggering point to 120 instead of 100.