Need some advice regarding our tank dps in SoO

[Avada Kedavra]

I think the shredder turns a red, like the whole thing. looks like it is enraged. Thats how I know if the shredder is placed correctly. I havent done it on Heroic, but I cant imagine it being any different.

[Dasani]

I thought this was about heroic blackfuse at first...

But normal? Seriously?

I'm not really sure what to say. You don't even really need saws, I mean they help I guess but you should be able to wreck those shredders without them. Best advice I can give to baddie tanks that can't kill them is to ensure they have all their abilities ready to use by the time the shredder lands from death from above. Just run out for death from above, learn when to run back in as soon as possible without death from above hitting you, and then unload on them. The damage they take after death from above is outrageous and you can easily finish off a shredder during that window. But you use all your cooldowns (paladin) or waste all your runes (DK) and don't have any when they hit the ground, you're gonna do shit for damage.

Just be glad you don't have to deal will killing shredders with much, much, much higher health, doing insanely more damage, and having to kill them BEFORE they even death from above like on heroic.

And I didn't read everything from this thread, just skimmed a line here and there. But to the dude saying DPS should switch to the shredder, that is horrible misunderstanding of mechanics. While the shredder does take additional damage after death from above, his reactive armor still makes it take significantly less damage than you hitting a normal mob. The debuff blackfuse applies increases the damage output of the tank vs targets with reactive armor. The tank doing the shredder is going to do more damage to that shredder than if you had your entire raid's DPS switch to it. It is inefficient and a waste of time. The tanks just need to learn how to do it properly. If a tank ever needs help killing a shredder it's because they are bad. That is the bottom line. No amount of whinning or misunderstanding the mechanics will change that fact. If you can't kill your shredder before you have to tank swap ON NORMAL you are horrible. You should try that shit on heroic, which, by the way, you also can't afford to have dps "help" you because by the time you get to that level of raiding every single person in the raid realizes it's a waste of dps to attack the shredder.

[Museigen]

I won't waste space with the "if heroic.." epeen drivel, but as silly as that stuff is they're right. From the very first time I did Blackfuse, as a death knight, I have never had problems killing my shredder and cannot understand people who do. There's only 3 options for whats going on:

1. Not managing stacks from the boss, which the logs (and you saying yourself) seem to not be the issue.

2. The tanks are not focusing resources on the death from above window or using saws/fire. In this window the add takes insane amounts of damage, and you should pool resources for hammering it during this time. Save up holy power, fill up on rage, have runes filled and don't be out of energy etc...To be honest in full normal gear I kill my shredder as it lifts up for death from above and I'm a DK who goes for 200% mastery then parry and uses stam flasks. I could kill it earlier via gearing/potions/flask changes. I have no heroic gear and do nothing special short of tanking it on a sawblade.

3. Your tanks are just completely messing up their spec in gearing, rotation or both. Not much to explain on this one other than, "You're doing it wrong" and they would need to read the many available guides to their specs.


As far as blood goes, pool up runes a few seconds before he jumps for death from above. Save dancing rune weapon for death from above, even more so if you have 4pc. Run back in and DS (Death strike) DS, dancing rune weapon, DS, DS and spam rune strike. If it's not dead after that, your tank needs to rethink everything they are doing because something is significantly wrong. Cooldowns like empower rune weapon can also be used to cover the gap, though should not be necessary.

I hate to sound like the "In heroic" epeen crowd but we had a friend of a friends alt tank with 550k hp fill the other night thanks to a storm induced power outage, and he couldn't kill his add and generally failed to even prevent it from being out of range of the heal beam. At ilvl 560 something, blood again, I killed his shredder and mine before the other tank had 3 stacks. I cannot comprehend shredder issues on non-heroic. (And on heroic siegecrafter you should know what do do anyway :P)

[kamuimac]

i honestly can never understand all this e pen fapping where eveyrbody around swing their e pens with "tank should be able to kill solo" - yes he should yes we all know it , yes yes yes - but guilds which are atm on normal siege are pretty weak raiding guilds and there is nothing bad about it - and instead clinging desperately to tactics which work for better guilds people should just adjust it to which will work for them - tank has a problem to solo kill shredder - well then 1-2 dps switch to it for 5-10 seconds kill it problem solved boss dies collect loot gg go to paragons - people who are atm on normal siegecrafter will never reach hc siegecrafter in this tier anyway so i really dont understand the need to trash their tanks to the ground for being weaker then average mmochampion raider //shrug

[Braindwen]

i honestly can never understand all this e pen fapping where eveyrbody around swing their e pens with "tank should be able to kill solo" - yes he should yes we all know it , yes yes yes - but guilds which are atm on normal siege are pretty weak raiding guilds and there is nothing bad about it - and instead clinging desperately to tactics which work for better guilds people should just adjust it to which will work for them - tank has a problem to solo kill shredder - well then 1-2 dps switch to it for 5-10 seconds kill it problem solved boss dies collect loot gg go to paragons - people who are atm on normal siegecrafter will never reach hc siegecrafter in this tier anyway so i really dont understand the need to trash their tanks to the ground for being weaker then average mmochampion raider //shrug

that amount of DPS switching might manage ~10% of a shredder's health. That 80% damage reduction on the shredders makes it very inefficient for DPS to switch, a DPS doing anything meaningful to the adds is going to take a lot of boss DPS away. That of course leads to more belts, more shredders, and more potential for someone to make a mistake and die.

More to the point, no one's asking the tanks to be great. What they want is to see them not do this:

22:31:49.227 Udderlypure Melee Automated Shredder 1 45418
22:31:54.021 Udderlypure Melee Automated Shredder 1 42296

That wasn't death from above. That shredder was one he'd just recently started attacking, and he flat out stopped doing ANYTHING for 5 seconds to it. Considering he was attacking that shredder for 30 seconds total, that's 1/6th of the whole time it was up, thrown completely out the window. Fixing blatant stuff like that will go a long way to making this fight easy.

Alternatively, they could have DPS switch, and continue to overcomplicate simple things like sawblades to compensate for their tanks. That doesn't mean people can't offer up advice on how the tanks can improve.

[Khorm]

]On my paladin I could never get enough DPS to kill the shredder. It was not until I studied my paladins DPS rotation finding the best rotation for the highest DPS and Figured out the best Glyphs to use in order to maximize my DPS and even then it was difficult

You mean casting Execution Sentence at the right time, or didn't your research uncover that?

[Deleted]

i honestly can never understand all this e pen fapping where eveyrbody around swing their e pens with "tank should be able to kill solo" - yes he should yes we all know it , yes yes yes - but guilds which are atm on normal siege are pretty weak raiding guilds and there is nothing bad about it - and instead clinging desperately to tactics which work for better guilds people should just adjust it to which will work for them - tank has a problem to solo kill shredder - well then 1-2 dps switch to it for 5-10 seconds kill it problem solved boss dies collect loot gg go to paragons - people who are atm on normal siegecrafter will never reach hc siegecrafter in this tier anyway so i really dont understand the need to trash their tanks to the ground for being weaker then average mmochampion raider //shrug

I would agree with your point of view from a pug perspective, but OP is in a guild and therefor it is A LOT more valuable to have underperformers step up and not cover for them every time.

[Smurfz]

This argument that having 1 dps switch to the shredder for the 3 seconds after Death from above while the shredder is taking 200 percent dmg from all sources is a DPS loss...is retarded. First off blackfuse has NO health. there are honestly Rare spawns in the vale that have more HP then this boss. As long as all mechanics are executed correctly the fight last 3 minutes...maybe. So, how you can justify wipe after wipe just so the raid lead can boast and spew mathematical garbage at people is well..yea I already said it...retarded. It's not a DPS loss because the tank can get back to Black fuse and DPS blackfuse. Even if you did run the numbers dps loss would be a fractional percent. I mean your talking ONE dps to switch targets for 3 seconds. that's a loss of ~ 800k Dmg. so if the group has atleast 5 dps all pulling ~ 200k that means the group is pull 1 mill DPS. So the loss is so marginal that it wont effect the raid at all. The only argument that would even be close to considering this loss of dps even worth discussing is if your group was looking to beat a record. Which if the tanks are struggling on the shredder you should give the Team your working with a few complete clears of SoO before you start trying to Beat record times. But, for just strict progression purposes the dps loss is so marginal compared to the over all gain. That not having a dps switch is just arrogant. As already stated. the sooner the shredder dies the sooner Raid wide DMG stops. So that means your healers don't have to struggle. Also, the tank on the shredder can now DPS the boss that much faster. and it puts the Tank that was on the shredder in easy position for the next Taunt off. So, if you interested in merely progression past Blackfuse...have a dps target the shredder after death from above. If you interested in wiping time and time again so you can get those perfect logs so you can apply to Method like every other fanboy on the web pls continue wiping and then yell at the tank as if this couldn't have all been avoided

Then there is the fact that because of other mechanics like the Electron mechanic it makes it difficult for the tank to set up the Shredder on a Saw blade. When Saw blades are active and the shredder is correctly placed on the blade the tank doesn't really need to dps. But, if a magnet slips past the belt team and all the blades fade away. it is difficult.

But, the point is if you have a super pro tank. Invite him to raid ; ditch the tank you apparently don't like enough to adjust the strategy and stop wasting everyones time.

Also, in response to one of the responses. On the server I am on guilds that allow progression are difficult to get in to and most of them are made up of close friends and relatives. So, even if you get in your still put into the back corner so there Close real life buddy can get a garry kill. Because, of that I pug normal and flex all the time. I have seem most of these fights done a number of different ways because of that. But, ultimately if I didn't pug. I wouldn't even be allowed to play the game and my skill as a player has very little to do with it. its all family and friends on the guilds on my server. So, I pug. I was very happy when normal and heroic went cross realm because with out OQ I would still be sitting in shrine spamming trade.

[Dawnrage]

This argument that having 1 dps switch to the shredder for the 3 seconds after Death from above while the shredder is taking 200 percent dmg from all sources is a DPS loss...is retarded. First off blackfuse has NO health. there are honestly Rare spawns in the vale that have more HP then this boss. As long as all mechanics are executed correctly the fight last 3 minutes...maybe. So, how you can justify wipe after wipe just so the raid lead can boast and spew mathematical garbage at people is well..yea I already said it...retarded. It's not a DPS loss because the tank can get back to Black fuse and DPS blackfuse. Even if you did run the numbers dps loss would be a fractional percent. I mean your talking ONE dps to switch targets for 3 seconds. that's a loss of ~ 800k Dmg. so if the group has atleast 5 dps all pulling ~ 200k that means the group is pull 1 mill DPS. So the loss is so marginal that it wont effect the raid at all. The only argument that would even be close to considering this loss of dps even worth discussing is if your group was looking to beat a record. Which if the tanks are struggling on the shredder you should give the Team your working with a few complete clears of SoO before you start trying to Beat record times. But, for just strict progression purposes the dps loss is so marginal compared to the over all gain. That not having a dps switch is just arrogant. As already stated. the sooner the shredder dies the sooner Raid wide DMG stops. So that means your healers don't have to struggle. Also, the tank on the shredder can now DPS the boss that much faster. and it puts the Tank that was on the shredder in easy position for the next Taunt off. So, if you interested in merely progression past Blackfuse...have a dps target the shredder after death from above. If you interested in wiping time and time again so you can get those perfect logs so you can apply to Method like every other fanboy on the web pls continue wiping and then yell at the tank as if this couldn't have all been avoided

Then there is the fact that because of other mechanics like the Electron mechanic it makes it difficult for the tank to set up the Shredder on a Saw blade. When Saw blades are active and the shredder is correctly placed on the blade the tank doesn't really need to dps. But, if a magnet slips past the belt team and all the blades fade away. it is difficult.

But, the point is if you have a super pro tank. Invite him to raid ; ditch the tank you apparently don't like enough to adjust the strategy and stop wasting everyones time.

Also, in response to one of the responses. On the server I am on guilds that allow progression are difficult to get in to and most of them are made up of close friends and relatives. So, even if you get in your still put into the back corner so there Close real life buddy can get a garry kill. Because, of that I pug normal and flex all the time. I have seem most of these fights done a number of different ways because of that. But, ultimately if I didn't pug. I wouldn't even be allowed to play the game and my skill as a player has very little to do with it. its all family and friends on the guilds on my server. So, I pug. I was very happy when normal and heroic went cross realm because with out OQ I would still be sitting in shrine spamming trade.

Isn't the 200% damage taken debuff applied after the 80% reduced damage buff he has? I could be wrong since it's been a while I actually paid attention to anything on the fight but I thought it was that way when I was first progressing on it through normal/heroic.

[Smurfz]

I don't have WoW open atm. Based on what I remember from past reading of the Dgn Journal the 80 percent dmg reduction Debuff is always active. However, after death from above the shredder gets another debuff which increases DMG taken by 200 percent. The tanks also get a dmg increase from the tank mechanic buff. Which is why its important to make sure tanks do not taunt off until one tank has 3 stacks of the debuff. But, that is the math behind the fight. In practice it's just easier to have a Rdps assist the tank IMO. the 200 percent dmg increase negates the 80 percent dmg reduction. Unless you are trying to beat a record time or something. As a rule of thumb nothing in this game is meant to be that difficult. So, if your group keeps wiping over and over again on any of the boss it more than likely means your group is doing something wrong or you and your group are forgetting about a mechanic.

[Majah]

the 200 percent dmg increase negates the 80 percent dmg reduction.

It doesn't. Assuming your numbers are correct (can't check right now), your dps would be doing 60% of their normal damage to the shredder.

[Smurfz]

Yea but its still 60 percent dmg on an add that has absolutely no HP. That's why there are so many shields and dmg debuffs in this fight. The shredder and the boss have very little HP. The last time I did this fight our group had the boss down to 66 percent before the first belt person Mario jumped.

Just to try and explain it when I heal the fight as a MW monk any more I will CJL the shredder after death from above because the fact that the shredder dies fast is more beneficial from a healing stand point. Because, then I don't have to keep spamming heals every time the shredder does its Raid wide dmg ability. It's more beneficial to the raid that the shredder dies fast. Infact, as long as the group in the fight does the mechanics correctly meaning the shredder die asap and the belt team kills the correct weapon and the group avoids the missile and the lazer. This fight can almost be solo healed by about any healer. Now keep in mind that the statement made can only be performed by a group that is very good at performing the mechanics correctly and you don't have a large group of stupid people that constantly take dmg from the Spikes that shoot up from the ground. But as long as the mechanics are done correctly and the shredder dies fast there isn't that much dmg going out.

But, back to the tanking side of things. If you are a group that is just trying to kill blackfuse and the group is only concerned with progression. Try having a Rdps target the shredder. 60 percent dmg is better than wiping because the shredder was alive to long and the healers went OOM trying to keep the raid alive because the group kept taking dmg from the shredders Raid wide dmg ability. Now you have a couple dps dead because the healers couldn't keep them up and 1 of your healers is basically almost out of mana and the group has used up all its raid CDs and guess what another shredder just spawned so you have to kill this one too...except your out of raid CDs and your short DPS.

But to each there own. On my paladin like I said I can down the shredder everytime. My monk has an item level of 540 and I still use an LFR weapon because apparently Weapons don't drop in FLEX. So when I tank on my monk I do not play with a group that doesn't have a rdps switch targets. Because with an LFR weapon and Basicly half timeless gears its not happening with just me dpsing the shredder. But, my paladin doens't do normal anymore because it doesn't need any gear out of normal. so having my geared paladin come in and tank Siegecrafter is a carry and I only carry on Monday night.

[Deleted]

@Smurfz:
Why would blizzard implement a 80% Dmgreduction and give tanks a highpercentage Dmgbuff when they want rangedps to assist/kill the adds ?

The Damage a DD can deal on the add is a joke. Its not more then a drop on the hot stone. Lets say a DPS can do 200k dps and most of their DD cant then they would deal 600k dmg in the time of death from above. The shredder has ~9mil HP iirc. So the DD would do less then 7% !!! of the Shredders HP. Thats nothing.



BTT:
Give your tanks the rotations other people posted before that should help a lot. If they still dont manage to kill the adds try to give them more stacks and make them stack dmgcd's for the first shredder.

[Deja Thoris]

Meh, Smurfz and I just have different philosophies which is fine.

I want to fix the underlying problem and he has a valid solution for what is just terrible play.

The thing with your solution is when you move on to the next boss and the one after that, those players with the issues on Siegecrafter will still be terrible. I attempt to make them better throughout. If "getting the kill" is all you care about then by all means tell dps to switch. Otherwise fixing the root cause will always trump a Band-Aid fix.

[Smurfz]

Killing the boss is absolutely all I care about. I have no intention to continuously wipe on a boss. The mechanics and gameplay requirements of the Seigecrafter fight have absolutely no reflection on the next 2 fights. Generally speaking most tanks do not set up for max dmg until they are geared. On the siegecrafter fight having max dmg out of a tank is the objective. On the next 2 fights max dmg out of the tanks is a secondary the klaxxi fight requires tanks that can keep active mitigation up as much as possible or atleast tanks that can time it with the worms that spawn. Then there is a taunt off mechanic which relys on the tanks ability to be aware of the situation and communicate with one another. At no point in the klaxxi fight is max DPS out of the tanks a Requirement. Being a tank capable of pulling max dmg is a plus in all fights but is definitely not a requirement for klaxxi. On garrosh hellscream the dmg the tanks are capable of providing to the raid with be about 3 times that of any other fight in SoO because of the vengeance you are capable of acquiring off of garrosh and the adds. So, the dmg out put of a Tank on Seigecrafter which actually doesn't allow much vengeance to be stacked and the dmg output capable on the next 2 fights do not parallel one another at all.

But, in all honesty all I care about is the kill and the loot. I don't play for show I play for dough. Like I said I pug all the time. I have to. I don't keep logs. I don't see the point. In all honesty I think Logs are misleading. No only that how many wipes did it take to get that perfect log.

I was in a seigecrafter fight a few weeks ago where there was a healer pulling over 200k hps. The group failed. I healed it last week and only pulled 60k hps. and I helped the tank dps the shredder down. What is the difference between My 60 k hps healer and the 200k hps healer. MY group Downed the BOSS and got loot. His group wiped over and over again. But I bet his logs were wonderfull

[Deja Thoris]

Wiping a few times to improve a player is an investment. Remember its a guild / team they have built, not a pug whose job it is to down bosses on the first pull or risk having people emo quit.

Anway, I'll leave you to your blinkered view and thank you for the chuckle your views on vengeance gave me.

[Deldari]

Our tanks occasionally had issues on this fight when we were learning it, but I think it was more they struggle with managing stacks (it seems like that's the case on every new fight though), so often one of the tanks was fighting the shredder with 2 stacks instead of 3. That said, they usually managed to kill it. Like Deja said, it's worth wiping a few times if it means your tank learns. When I lead raids, I always operate under the assumption that someone is competent and capable of learning. It's an important attitude to have. Simply tell your tanks "Hey, make sure you guys save your dps cooldowns and abilities like Execution Sentence to use during the 5 seconds after Death From Above".

A lot of the time you're going to hear from them that they are doing that already of course. It's natural for people to be defensive like that, but the next pull you'll see a difference. Good luck!

[Deleted]

But, back to the tanking side of things. If you are a group that is just trying to kill blackfuse and the group is only concerned with progression. Try having a Rdps target the shredder. 60 percent dmg is better than wiping because the shredder was alive to long and the healers went OOM trying to keep the raid alive because the group kept taking dmg from the shredders Raid wide dmg ability. Now you have a couple dps dead because the healers couldn't keep them up and 1 of your healers is basically almost out of mana and the group has used up all its raid CDs and guess what another shredder just spawned so you have to kill this one too...except your out of raid CDs and your short DPS.

It's statements like these that tell us that you have absolutely no idea how this game works.
You also think that 5 seconds worth of 40% reduced Crackling Jade Lightning will be more beneficial to the raid than actually healing? You seem to be under the illusion that if anyone else throws the smallest amount of damage at the shredder, then it will die without problems... that is not the case. It is not because of your CJL that your group killed the boss and the other didn't. How arrogant are you?
There is nothing elitist in saying that tanks (or any player for that matter) should press their buttons. Shredders have so little hp and become dangerous so late, that tanks doing anything to should kill it.
You also don't seem to be aware of the fact that players can't do their maximum damage immedeately after they switch targets. Just doing damage for 3 seconds means close to nothing and will overcomplicate and prolong the fight way more that need be. Bosses don't get less challenging for tanks than normal siegecrafter from here on, which means that fixing these kinds of trivial issues is of the utmost importance.

[britishbubba]

But, back to the tanking side of things. If you are a group that is just trying to kill blackfuse and the group is only concerned with progression. Try having a Rdps target the shredder. 60 percent dmg is better than wiping because the shredder was alive to long and the healers went OOM trying to keep the raid alive because the group kept taking dmg from the shredders Raid wide dmg ability. Now you have a couple dps dead because the healers couldn't keep them up and 1 of your healers is basically almost out of mana and the group has used up all its raid CDs and guess what another shredder just spawned so you have to kill this one too...except your out of raid CDs and your short DPS.

How do your healers go OOM healing very predictable damage? Put ReM on the raid, and uplift. whoaaaaaaaaaa raid gets healed easily and for very little mana.

But to each there own. On my paladin like I said I can down the shredder everytime. My monk has an item level of 540 and I still use an LFR weapon because apparently Weapons don't drop in FLEX. So when I tank on my monk I do not play with a group that doesn't have a rdps switch targets. Because with an LFR weapon and Basicly half timeless gears its not happening with just me dpsing the shredder. But, my paladin doens't do normal anymore because it doesn't need any gear out of normal. so having my geared paladin come in and tank Siegecrafter is a carry and I only carry on Monday night.

Pool 3 chi before DFA -> Kegsmash -> BoK -> BoK. For bonus points run RJW and pop it right before you run into the shredder after DFA. If you have at least 3 stacks there's no reason to not be able to kill a shredder by yourself on any tank class. At least on normal.

[Simmias]

I have no intention to continuously wipe on a boss

Why are you raiding in the first place with an attitude like that? This is not lfr, wipes are going to happen untill everyone understands their role in the fight. Your tanks will not cope with klaxxi or garrosh if they cannot handle an add with small hp. Listen to the advice given or keep wiping, your choice.