Raid leader shouting at raid members over voice chat: acceptable or not?

[RaenavenBlacksun]

Circumstances or no, it's still verbal abuse. Yelling isn't going to make a person better, it just makes them stop trying. (Unless it's the military, but I didn't join for a reason.)

In all the raiding guilds I've been in, I have never dealt with a verbally abusive raid leader. And if I had one that did, I'd leave that guild immediately. I deal with enough verbally and emotionally abusive people in my life without getting yelled at over pixels and algorithms.

[Heladys]

The correct answer isn't up there: "They shouldn't have to"

Stop making your raid leaders angry.

[Megraam]

Hey, so I'm in a guild and we're currently doing pretty decent imo on progressions (13/14 normal, going to attempt heroic once we get garrosh normal down).

2014-04-10, 03:44 PM

I don't think so.

To answer your question: in case if he isn't able to make his raid do what's necessary for a kill without shouting, he has to options: replace people or shout at them before resorting to replacement. So it's just a moral choice. As for me, in case if I repeatedly make the same mistake due to me being retarded today, I prefer being shouted at than being replaced.

[Binko]

Im not sure how old u are but i would say that being able to take shit is part of growing up

Worst reply ever.

Part of already being grown up is that you don't have to take abuse from people anymore. Nobody anywhere, at work or in game, has any right to yell at you.

I got yelled at and called names by my dad constantly as a kid. As an adult I simply won't accept it.

I had a good job once where the owner yelled and raged at almost everybody. But never at me, because I performed a really crucial function and always did my job without drama. One day he finally lost it, started screaming at me and cut loose with all this pent up bile over petty issues that he had obviously been resenting. Ten minutes later I walked into his office and told him I quit because I won't accept that kind of treatment.

[Theendgamelv3]

I don't think so.

To answer your question: in case if he isn't able to make his raid do what's necessary for a kill without shouting, he has to options: replace people or shout at them before resorting to replacement. So it's just a moral choice. As for me, in case if I repeatedly make the same mistake due to me being retarded today, I prefer being shouted at than being replaced.

What if the guild just started to do raiding a week ago and got to 13/14? (Yes I know most likely that isn't the case, but don't judge what is good or bad progression by date alone)

Anyways to the topic at hand. It depends IMO, If you're a hardcore guild that is strongly into raiding and trying to push hard, yea shouting is acceptable IF it isn't anything insulting. There is a different between "GUYS, don't TUNNEL VISION on the DAMN boss! Lets do this right this time." and "You're all morons who need to can't tell their own head from their ass!". It just depends on the circumstances.

[Viradiance]

If they deserve to be shouted at, yes.

[Deleted]

I'd leave a guild if the raid leader started verbally abusing people tbh.

[Deleted]

If "not getting healed for 4-5 seconds" got you killed, you probably fucked up. In the current content (Save for maybe the last 4 heroic bosses - haven't seen those, but heard ugly things) there should not be any need to heal tanks. Especially on nazgrim I can't imagine how a tank could die, except from doing stupid things like standing in the fire/ravager (we are not talking about HC here, so no executes) or failing at playing his class.

What you have to understand is under how much stress a raid leader can be. It's a thankless job, everyone whispers you for whatever reason and you have to play your own character while looking at everyone else and doing the announcing thing and they still manage to fuck up the one job they have. You also have to keep motivating people when you have no motivation yourself anymore. There is a reason many people don't want to do raid lead, especially when they have had experience doing it.

We didn't get the full story here, but I suspect that there was something else going on and you perfectly deserved it.


But I will say one thing in your defense: I think yelling at your own guildies in pug runs should be avoided.

[Terridon]

I don't accept screaming people. Being rude/obnoxious isn't something i consider good traits in people, and i don't like people that only understand that kind of inputs either.
Never had a raid leader that acted like that. Have seen frustration, and annoyance and such of course. It happens.
I'm the one that have been raid leader for a while. Also am one of the tanks. I can't even imagining not having a good relationship to my cotank. To me it's just a blatant lack of respect, to yell at people you work with several times each week.

I'm a wuss that think raiding is a hobby that is done for the fun of it, so in your situation i would take a good look at how fun it is, and then leave, since it seems to be a rather normal occurrence.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

The margin for error on heroic raids is far smaller, the mistake that a heroic raider makes is miniscule compared to that which would wipe a lower difficulty, which is why there is more tolerance for tiny mistakes that cause a wipe during progression. Major mistakes are not the same, getting hit by Ironstar in phase 1 of Garrosh is not a tiny mistake. And shouldn't be treated as such. Reaction is different based on the problem. On normal, it is general major problems that wipe groups, as small mistakes can be recovered.

When it comes to mistakes the important things are as follows.

• Does the person know they made a mistake?
• Does the person know what the mistake was?
• Does the person know how to fix the mistake?
• Does the person fix the mistake?

You don't need yelling to solve it, you need people to know exactly what is going on. Wipes in my guild basically follow that pattern, we don't shout people down for making mistakes; When someone causes a wipe in my guild generally the first thing that happens is they say what their mistake was, if they don't then I peek through the death log to see what killed them and mention it. The worst thing that happens verbally is someone gets a short lecture about what to do.

[Naiattavain]

its everyone responsibility to learn about the game it is a big one i might add.

[manybadgers]

If you yell in vent it means you are abusive and probably a horrible person irl.

[Ginantonicus]

Raiding is fun, being yelled at while raiding is not. So if a RL yells too much, lets just say you can't be RL if your the only one in the raid.

[I am America]

If you yell in vent it means you are abusive and probably a horrible person irl.

That is such a blanket statement. Please tell me how you have gotten world firsts without anyone ever raising their voice throughout the whole of progression.

I don't think yelling has to be employed on a regular basis, but at a certain point there may be someone who does not do anything to improve and doesn't really care about your "please do x differently" requests. Yes, it may be easier to just kick them, but a lot of times the person may be a good player that just isn't realizing their play is lacking in a given night or you don't want to call off the raid to get a replacement later. As someone who has a few guildies that fail avoidable mechanics quite frequently, I would appreciate more discipline on the spot so that they can understand that they need to adjust quickly (this would be the same for me too if I have a bad night).

Once you get to the point of heroic raiding I feel like the argument "it is just a game" loses a bit of validity. Yes, it is a game in which 24 other people depend on you to be prepared ahead of time if progress is to be made, and when one person obviously did not do that they are wasting the others' time. I am not saying that yelling is always the best way to get through but it has a use as a last resort when there are a few slackers that are holding the whole raid back without changing from more gentle pleas.

[toomes211]

The bottom line is pretty simple, the raid leader has to lead. Some do that by shouting. Personally I hate the ones that do it by shouting, getting pissed off, and belittling the raid members. If someone is not pulling their weight in the raid you treat them like the adult they (hopefully) are, or can act like. Tell them what the issue is and they can get better or get cut.

Being super serious all the time ruins the fun. I'm in a pretty casual guild that raids 6 hrs/week, working on heroic spoils. But I enjoy it because the raid leader doesn't treat us like slobbering idiots and doesn't yell at us for stupid mistakes. Unless we really deserve it.

[Alvito]

As a boss, raid leader or person I avoid yelling at people almost all the time. It doesn't do much to help and often makes things worse. Sure over the internet you have a limited bag of tricks to get the point across and some people just can't control themselves and yell when they lose their shit. From my pov the person yelling often looks like a bigger shithead then the person being yelled at for whatever they did.

- - - Updated - - -

The correct answer isn't up there: "They shouldn't have to"

Stop making your raid leaders angry.

There is some truth to that, but raid leaders and raid recruiters should be able to pull a group together and not have things go so poorly that yelling is the best solution.

[Stuffs]

You don't need yelling to solve it

You'd be surprised. Even at 14/14H Im amazed at the shit people do/try to get away with. Sometimes putting them up on the spotlight is the only way to get them to cut it out. I tried to avoid it when possible back when I could be assed to be an officer, but sometimes it was required for some of the thicker players.

[Menthall]

No matter what the forum members say it is up to you.

If it is unacceptable to you, then you need to find a better place to have fun.
Personally, I zone out from time to time on progression and the occasional "Hey, Fuckface pull your head out of your ass." is what I need to refresh my keybind pounding! However, I went into my guild with that knowledge and do not get upset when it happens.

[Viradiance]

The simple answer is don't be shit and you won't be treated like it.

[Shinrael]

Im not sure how old u are but i would say that being able to take shit is part of growing up

Thats what ive learned mostly thru work and RL aswell as a few moments in WoW.
A Raging Leader mostly comes in Hardcore Guilds in WoW(were i have experienced it at least) and ive Always been fine with it.
Its a way of personality and u just have to accept it...... or not and find a new Guild, its up to u.

Sure, being able to take shit is part of growing up, but by growing up you also develop one other thing called "brain" and when someone is brainlessly shouting at you when he could calmly explain the mistake then a little alert should pop in your brain telling you that it's not really your mistake that is the problem, it's just that the person has problems. Mental problems.

Also, even if the OP really wiped them ( which he himself doubts ) and we considered that kind of an act "shit" then the raid leader has to grow up so he can take shit like this. Shit happens.Sometimes you can misclick, sometimes you can panic, sometimes you can get some nasty lag or a huge fps loss. Even if you know a fight perfectly, your performance during multiple attempts at that fight will never be the same. Because we are humans. We are not robots that do everything the exact same way every time.

Were you performing like shit ? After doing a bossfight 100 times ? If yes take the anger like you deserve. Nothing more infuriating while raiding than a moron that doesn't learn after doing something countless times.

An average human being with an average IQ can come to the conclusion that it is better to explain a person's mistake to him after the first time instead of letting him do it 100 times and rage at him.

Well, the other 24 people were having fun before you caused a wipe. The sound you heard is the sound of fun dying.

I've done raid-leading, and yelled at people. I'd like to think I'm generally level-headed, and willing to explain mechanics, give people the benefit of the doubt, etc. It is NEVER the first fuck up that gets yelled at. It's on attempt 100 of paragons when the same person dies to Rapid Fire for the 50th time.

The OP said he didn't wipe them himself. He didn't say "haha i wiped the raid because its fun". Even if he did wipe them, I am certain it was unintentional thus judging him like that is stupid. Also, WoW is a game before everything else. It's meant for fun. Now if it's some top tier guild that plays the game solely for competitiveness, then I guess it is somewhat acceptable to have a raging raid leader, to a certain extent. But even then that is stupid. Raging instead of explaining is stupid. Plus, I've seen some top tier guilds raid and the raid leaders never rage like that...

Also, if you go to a raid, you should be mentally prepared to wipe many times even if it gets to the point where it's no longer fun otherwise... YOU ARE NOT PREPARED!