Lets define "Fixing PVP" for Blizzard.

[Lulbalance]

how? you must be awful

nice...but you're having trouble landing traps :s.

[Teebone]

More CC. More movement while casting. Buff everyone, make PvP more actiony like its an FPS. I miss how devastating CC used to be; sapped for a full minute, stunned to 0%, kited to infinity. You know WHY I miss it? It forced people to actually play AS A TEAM. The more nerfed PVP got, the worse it felt. This is why people miss vanilla and BC so much; we didn't feel like half of ourselves when we wanted a little PVP action.

[Cirayne24]

More CC. More movement while casting. Buff everyone, make PvP more actiony like its an FPS. I miss how devastating CC used to be; sapped for a full minute, stunned to 0%, kited to infinity. You know WHY I miss it? It forced people to actually play AS A TEAM. The more nerfed PVP got, the worse it felt. This is why people miss vanilla and BC so much; we didn't feel like half of ourselves when we wanted a little PVP action.

You're right, because we didn't play half the time because of CC. That was never fun... lets go back to the days when Rogues could kite warriors with crippling, because that was super fun. Or lets go back to Defensives being on 30 Min CDs.

But I can't tell if you're serious.

[Teebone]

You're right, because we didn't play half the time because of CC. That was never fun... lets go back to the days when Rogues could kite warriors with crippling, because that was super fun. Or lets go back to Defensives being on 30 Min CDs.

But I can't tell if you're serious.

This is why you had a team. PVP has never been built on 1v1. PvP now is fun? It's BORING AS HELL. Everyone does LK level damage but has half a million + hps. I could waltz into a BG right now, live pratically forever. I wouldn't get much killin' done but so what? PVP has been so nerfed into the damn ground it's a joke. We NEED to go back to when you had to look over your shoulder every 5 seconds. The risk is gone and now everyone just ticklefights til someone pees. Sorry that risks weren't fun to you. That's what made PVP before. The team aspect that they 'got your back' or you had theirs.

No one goes into a MOBA or FPS and goes 'WAHH I GOT GLOBALED, NERF NERF NERF!!' and is taken seriously. Yet on WoW, they were. This is what we have now; PJs and pillows. Its a damn shame. PVP hasn't been 'good' since LK.

[Hand Banana]

This is why you had a team. PVP has never been built on 1v1. PvP now is fun? It's BORING AS HELL. Everyone does LK level damage but has half a million + hps. I could waltz into a BG right now, live pratically forever. I wouldn't get much killin' done but so what? PVP has been so nerfed into the damn ground it's a joke. We NEED to go back to when you had to look over your shoulder every 5 seconds. The risk is gone and now everyone just ticklefights til someone pees. Sorry that risks weren't fun to you. That's what made PVP before. The team aspect that they 'got your back' or you had theirs.

No one goes into a MOBA or FPS and goes 'WAHH I GOT GLOBALED, NERF NERF NERF!!' and is taken seriously. Yet on WoW, they were. This is what we have now; PJs and pillows. Its a damn shame. PVP hasn't been 'good' since LK.

I honestly could not find this more inaccurate. Burst is more nuts than it ever has been; yea in random bgs you might not need to worry about dying in 5 seconds, at least until you run into someone decent. Exactly what spec are you to live forever? A healer? Of course you can, healers aren't meant to be killed in 1v1 by a fully geared and skilled person, so obviously 1-2 half assed people in subpar gear won't kill you. You say you won't get much killing done, I am lost, are you like a prot pally or something? My dk absolutely destroys people in bgs. I agree burst healing is too high, but people can easily still drop in a deep or blank cs.

Team play is just as important as ever. I usually run random bgs with my 2 friends, we run hpally/spriest/mage or dk/hpriest/mage and we can clear a room in 10 seconds easily. We can easily defeat 5+ randoms usually without even using big defensive cds because we know how to peel, cc and burst together. Even geared players get trucked in a heartbeat because we actually play arenas together and have synergy. If you go in solo than you don't get that.

This is all random bgs of course, in arenas its the same as it always is but burst healing and damage are a bit inflated.

[Saberstrike]

healers aren't meant to be killed in 1v1 by a fully geared and skilled person

This right here is a huge part of why pvp feels shit. PvP is about killing, healers get in the way. If we had no healers (and to an extent no bloated hp bars) and the game's damage would be balanced around dps / limited dps defenses, it would be a lot more fun.

I used this example many times before before, but TF2 is where healers are done right. There's a medic who can die with a single shot yet he's still very valuable and a team with a medic will still generally be superior to one without -- but one without won't feel completely useless.

[Deleted]

This right here is a huge part of why pvp feels shit. PvP is about killing, healers get in the way. If we had no healers (and to an extent no bloated hp bars) and the game's damage would be balanced around dps / limited dps defenses, it would be a lot more fun

This game is allready a swifty infected slugfest, and healers are meant to teach people how to cross cc and focus targets.

[Feranor]

• Remove arenas.
• Remove battlegrounds.
• Remove flying mounts.
• Condense CC timers to Stun, Root, Disorient.
• Have graveyards for respawning in safe spots instead of corpse running.
• Buff rewards from player kills (XP, Honor, gold, loot).
• Allow for towns, outposts etc. to be captured by the factions (quest NPCs etc. could be moved to less convenient spots like in Wintergrasp when your town is occupied).
• Make NPC defenses (e.g. guards) scale individually with attacker level and generally with population balance.
• Implement recurring PvP events such as "The Warchief wants to crush the Alliance at Warsong Lumber Camp. Horde must assist him, Alliance must kill him or drive him back."
• Implement PvP quests such as "Collect 12 gnome heads so that <evil Forsaken scientist> can construct the most annoying hydra ever."
• Implement a bounty system:the more players you kill, the higher the bounty on your head. Whoever kills you collects (and resets) the bounty. Bounty points can be spent on crafting materials, recipes and such.
• Implement Dishonorable Kills: if you kill grey players while there's not at least 1 "green" enemy nearby, you'll get a Dishonorable Kill. If you rack up too many of those, the opposing faction will see your approximate location on their world map and your stealth level will be decreased. Also, you'll be worth more gold, XP, honor and bounty points. Getting killed by an enemy player or killing players that are at least your level will reduce your Dishonorable Kills.
• Implement a rank system that yields cosmetic rewards (titles, mounts, fancy transmogrification gear etc.).

Ding ding, MMORPG PvP is back.

[Grenzstein]

• Remove arenas.
• Remove battlegrounds.
• Remove flying mounts.
• Condense CC timers to Stun, Root, Disorient.
• Have graveyards for respawning in safe spots instead of corpse running.
• Buff rewards from player kills (XP, Honor, gold, loot).
• Allow for towns, outposts etc. to be captured by the factions (quest NPCs etc. could be moved to less convenient spots like in Wintergrasp when your town is occupied).
• Make NPC defenses (e.g. guards) scale individually with attacker level and generally with population balance.
• Implement recurring PvP events such as "The Warchief wants to crush the Alliance at Warsong Lumber Camp. Horde must assist him, Alliance must kill him or drive him back."
• Implement PvP quests such as "Collect 12 gnome heads so that <evil Forsaken scientist> can construct the most annoying hydra ever."
• Implement a bounty system:the more players you kill, the higher the bounty on your head. Whoever kills you collects (and resets) the bounty. Bounty points can be spent on crafting materials, recipes and such.
• Implement Dishonorable Kills: if you kill grey players while there's not at least 1 "green" enemy nearby, you'll get a Dishonorable Kill. If you rack up too many of those, the opposing faction will see your approximate location on their world map and your stealth level will be decreased. Also, you'll be worth more gold, XP, honor and bounty points. Getting killed by an enemy player or killing players that are at least your level will reduce your Dishonorable Kills.
• Implement a rank system that yields cosmetic rewards (titles, mounts, fancy transmogrification gear etc.).

Ding ding, MMORPG PvP is back.

+1
Loved those ideas, too bad Blizzard would never do this

[Warlord Booty]

The other thing I think is just how threatening pets are by themselves now, which I feel wasn't as much the case prior to MoP - particularly BM pets.

True. As resto druid with thorns and insect swarm, any pet class was irrelevant. Throw my 2 dots and i never had to really think about them. Only issue was with the succubus, but more in a big group when I didn't notice her there to get the drop on her. Now, we've been clipped and have no real offensive ability and WoD are making us even worse.

- - - Updated - - -

healers aren't meant to be killed in 1v1 by a fully geared and skilled person,

Which is partially what I used to love about PVP. I knew if someone killed me, they earned it. Lately, many classes could kill me 1v1, mainly because they took away my offensive abilities. Yeah, people bitch about not being able to kill a healer, but most times anymore, they aren't killing you either. Which is piss.

[Cirayne24]

This is why you had a team. PVP has never been built on 1v1. PvP now is fun? It's BORING AS HELL. Everyone does LK level damage but has half a million + hps. I could waltz into a BG right now, live pratically forever. I wouldn't get much killin' done but so what? PVP has been so nerfed into the damn ground it's a joke. We NEED to go back to when you had to look over your shoulder every 5 seconds. The risk is gone and now everyone just ticklefights til someone pees. Sorry that risks weren't fun to you. That's what made PVP before. The team aspect that they 'got your back' or you had theirs.

No one goes into a MOBA or FPS and goes 'WAHH I GOT GLOBALED, NERF NERF NERF!!' and is taken seriously. Yet on WoW, they were. This is what we have now; PJs and pillows. Its a damn shame. PVP hasn't been 'good' since LK.

Burst is more insane then ever, just like Hand Banana said. People die in 1 CC now so I dont see how you can't say that Team Play isn't needed now. Are you talking about random BGs, RBGs, or Arena? You have to remember, PvP is balanced around 3v3 where games are won on CC chains (by team members).

If you're half assing CC and not coordinating burst between team members, of course this is going to see like a tickle fight.

[Torais]

This right here is a huge part of why pvp feels shit. PvP is about killing, healers get in the way. If we had no healers (and to an extent no bloated hp bars) and the game's damage would be balanced around dps / limited dps defenses, it would be a lot more fun.

I used this example many times before before, but TF2 is where healers are done right. There's a medic who can die with a single shot yet he's still very valuable and a team with a medic will still generally be superior to one without -- but one without won't feel completely useless.

I couldn't agree more. The way healers are engineered in WoW is downright abysmal. Not only does every PvP encounter boil down to "killing the healers before they kill yours" but it breeds almost comical levels of self-entitlement by their players, a good amount of which you can see in this very thread.

I never understood why healers could not deal moderate amounts of damage but lose their moronic "I cannot die to a DPS in a 1:1 ratio by sheer virtue of being a healer". I mean what happened to skill determining who wins a fight, not just what class/archetype you play? The usual fallback argument healers use to defend their nonsense is "Well you just want to blow up healers 1vs1". The truth is I and many other PvP fans want the win to go to who plays the best. A good DPS should be able to break a healer down 1vs1. A good healer should be able to survive and defeat the DPS by attrition. Sadly the current design has healers being annoying roadblocks every fight has to orbit around. I will reserve judgement for WoD until I play it but I somehow doubt the tired and sad formula will change any time soon.

More the pity, really.

[Teebone]

Burst is more insane then ever, just like Hand Banana said. People die in 1 CC now so I dont see how you can't say that Team Play isn't needed now. Are you talking about random BGs, RBGs, or Arena? You have to remember, PvP is balanced around 3v3 where games are won on CC chains (by team members).

If you're half assing CC and not coordinating burst between team members, of course this is going to see like a tickle fight.

I don't see burst as insane. In fact, just the opposite. Healers invincible 1v1? How is that supposed to be a good thing? Does no one out there remember the resto v resto fights that ended when someone finally got bored enough to quit?

Maybe because I play a lot of FPS I see this game as slow. Who knows.

What I remember is always watching for rogues. Always. One misplaced flare, one corner not checked, speakers not loud enough to hear that wooooo stealth sound and your FC/Node/whatever belonged to the enemy. See a large force on the move? Report or die and possibly lose the game. Yeah, I'm talking BGs the first season but so what? How many of you remember how fun those epic damn 24+ hour AVs were? How many of you had reserves on the side outside WSG when you were taking on the rival faction's biggest guild on your server? How many of you hunted rogues in Orgrimmar and SW or were the rogue they hunted?

THAT SHIT WAS FUN. It was intense. There was danger everywhere. Fuck having to time a 3 minute CD to the exact frequency of your target's farts when we had toolkits to demolish or deny being globaled. Its so boring now. I think the fastest burst I've seen these days is maybe 7 seconds? Now let me ask you, how many of you PVPers do heroic raids? How intense is it you could die INSTANTLY and things go wrong? Where is that intensity in PVP now? It used to be there.

Now I just don't even find it interesting.

FTR WW Monk, Balance Druid. I'm not ranked, haven't cared to be for a long time. When I was, it was Survival Hunter, Boomkin or Assasination Rogue. Its just not as exciting as it used to be. No risk. No interesting reward.

[Illana]

nice...but you're having trouble landing traps :s.

I watch multi rank 1 hunters play and they land maybe 1 out of 3 traps. If you play at a decent level and against equally skilled opponents they will do all they can to stop traps.

[Yvaelle]

I watch multi rank 1 hunters play and they land maybe 1 out of 3 traps. If you play at a decent level and against equally skilled opponents they will do all they can to stop traps.

There is a big difference between someone eating a trap for their scattered healer, and not being able to aim while under fire. You can bet their traps are on target, they just get prevented with sacrifice / dispels / trap-eating.

[Cirayne24]

clipped

PvE - PvP
I have done heroic raids in the past (Wrath) and it's a different beast to compare to PvP. Making a mistake and dying is the fault of the player, most fights are scripted (expect fire from Mimi, but even that can be contained), so you know when the "Oh shit moment" is coming and move/prepare CDs. You still have that in PvP... "Warriors Rage is pooled, I know C.Smash is coming and CDs." If I don't react I'm dead.

Rogues
Rogues can still solo cap, and it's even easier now. Subterfuge, smoke bomb, burst of speed, blind, sap can still get your node capped if you aren't ready for it.

BGs
If you still don't report a large force on the move the base is still gone... so I'm not sure what your point is.

AV
I've done AVs where I joined Monday logged out went out of town and rejoined the same one that Friday. It's fun the first few times, but it's meh now. I want it to end. Endless death matches get boring after a while... so I think 20 minutes is a good time limit to enjoy the current game and be ready for the next.

Healers
Yes healers are out of whack, I'm not defending them.


Bottom line I think you're opinion is skewed behind rose tinted glasses. The threats are still there, players just have to be smarter when to unload them. If anything, I have to be more aware of what the other team has and my team has in order to not die in a Burst window.

[Hand Banana]

I don't see burst as insane. In fact, just the opposite. Healers invincible 1v1? How is that supposed to be a good thing? Does no one out there remember the resto v resto fights that ended when someone finally got bored enough to quit?

Maybe because I play a lot of FPS I see this game as slow. Who knows.

What I remember is always watching for rogues. Always. One misplaced flare, one corner not checked, speakers not loud enough to hear that wooooo stealth sound and your FC/Node/whatever belonged to the enemy. See a large force on the move? Report or die and possibly lose the game. Yeah, I'm talking BGs the first season but so what? How many of you remember how fun those epic damn 24+ hour AVs were? How many of you had reserves on the side outside WSG when you were taking on the rival faction's biggest guild on your server? How many of you hunted rogues in Orgrimmar and SW or were the rogue they hunted?

THAT SHIT WAS FUN. It was intense. There was danger everywhere. Fuck having to time a 3 minute CD to the exact frequency of your target's farts when we had toolkits to demolish or deny being globaled. Its so boring now. I think the fastest burst I've seen these days is maybe 7 seconds? Now let me ask you, how many of you PVPers do heroic raids? How intense is it you could die INSTANTLY and things go wrong? Where is that intensity in PVP now? It used to be there.

Now I just don't even find it interesting.

FTR WW Monk, Balance Druid. I'm not ranked, haven't cared to be for a long time. When I was, it was Survival Hunter, Boomkin or Assasination Rogue. Its just not as exciting as it used to be. No risk. No interesting reward.

I think you're wearing rose-tinted glasses pretty hard. You say not being able to kill a healer in a 1v1 is a bad thing, but before you said you wanted more team efforts and to be less about 1v1. You are contradicting yourself. You enjoyed the 24 hour AVs yet you complain that pvp now is boring and slow? Man you are all over the place. I think you are just complaining about pvp now just to complain.

This game isn't anything like an FPS; FPS is about reaction and hand-eye coordination, WoW is about teamwork, strategy, knowledge, timing, and reaction. It requires way more skill and patience.

[Teebone]

It requires way more skill and patience.

patience.

Maybe there's the problem. Maybe I've outgrown WoW's pvp. I don't feel the intensity or exhiliration anymore. Maybe this is why it's boring to me now. Macros > true reflexes?

I am sad

[EDIT] Bonus points to you for the ATHF reference.

[schwank05]

For me it would be to Remove all CC. And make it so you have a dedicated PVP spec. Then they just need to implement an all out war side that reached say 200 kills first wins, I want a BG where the goal is to just kill the other faction, all I really enjoy about PVP anyway.

[Celista]

PvP in WoW right now is terrible. Not just bad, but God fucking awful.

• Remove arenas.
• Remove battlegrounds.
• Remove flying mounts.
• Condense CC timers to Stun, Root, Disorient.
• Have graveyards for respawning in safe spots instead of corpse running.
• Buff rewards from player kills (XP, Honor, gold, loot).
• Allow for towns, outposts etc. to be captured by the factions (quest NPCs etc. could be moved to less convenient spots like in Wintergrasp when your town is occupied).
• Make NPC defenses (e.g. guards) scale individually with attacker level and generally with population balance.
• Implement recurring PvP events such as "The Warchief wants to crush the Alliance at Warsong Lumber Camp. Horde must assist him, Alliance must kill him or drive him back."
• Implement PvP quests such as "Collect 12 gnome heads so that <evil Forsaken scientist> can construct the most annoying hydra ever."
• Implement a bounty system:the more players you kill, the higher the bounty on your head. Whoever kills you collects (and resets) the bounty. Bounty points can be spent on crafting materials, recipes and such.
• Implement Dishonorable Kills: if you kill grey players while there's not at least 1 "green" enemy nearby, you'll get a Dishonorable Kill. If you rack up too many of those, the opposing faction will see your approximate location on their world map and your stealth level will be decreased. Also, you'll be worth more gold, XP, honor and bounty points. Getting killed by an enemy player or killing players that are at least your level will reduce your Dishonorable Kills.
• Implement a rank system that yields cosmetic rewards (titles, mounts, fancy transmogrification gear etc.).

Ding ding, MMORPG PvP is back.

This is good, I support this (well most of it...flying can stay) along with weekly raid quests on faction leaders...throw a chance for a mount reward/conquest/whatever to keep people interested.

Also, wait times as Horde are abysmal. Did everyone faction change to Horde recently? Blizzard should consider tweaking wargames so that you can queue for them like random bgs and get random bg rewards, and the teams are randomized blue vs red and not faction versus faction.