Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Rankin]

Flying breaks the game moving forward on future WoW endeavors. Why try to throw 5 band-aids on it when the best solution is it's removal. Flying isn't a need, it's a want..And we've had them for awhile now and the thought of losing it gives you withdrawals...Pretty sure you'll live.

Flying only breaks the game because they refuse to design around flying. They'd rather drop us on a railroad through content so we don't break things by bypassing boring content.

A lot of changes being made in WoD is most defiantly a step forwards in design. A lot of going back to the foundations what made this game a success to begin with.

The highest point for WoW was after they added flying. But flying wasn't the only thing that made WoW so popular. Just like removing it won't suddenly make the game more popular again.

[Deleted]

Thats why were getting an expansion that seems to be going backwards in design VS forwards. An entire expansion based on nostalgia and thats not a good thing.

Nope nope nope nope nope

Im a design student and i love game design and the removal of flying mounts is forward not backwards.

Why? Because "design wise" for the first time in years the players will be playing content designed by the developers while with flying mounts everything developed by the creative team can be skipped (unless placed inside a cave...fun).
If a bridge is broken you will have to go around or find the way to make across. (ex: Timeless Isle Flame Chest)
If you have to jump from rock to rock in a river filled with sharks to get to the other side, you will feel the gameplay.
If you are playing in a jungle with pit traps all over the place, same thing.

With flying mounts EVERYTHING design wise can be skiped. So what im saying is:
Removal of flying mounts = more space for creativity in gameplay

[DarkArchon]

A game in general is a want, not a need - therefore if the game isn't fun, I don't need to play it and I don't need to give Blizzard any money. No, I won't pay for a game experience that doesn't appeal to me. I have always found WoW very irritating without flight. I tolerated it for the time I played vanilla because I didn't know anything different. Now that I know how much better it can be for me, I won't deal with regression back to crappy design. Instead, I will just not play the game at all for as long as removing or severely restricting flying is Blizzard's design goal. I can live perfectly fine without WoW, I haven't played in three months and took a break of over a year in the past as well, so why spend any time or money if I think it looks like crap going forward?

See now.. You toke what i said and twisted the meaning and turned it into a broader view therefore out of context. Nice effort tho. It's not the same thing.

Flying takes all your fun away? And to the point you wouldn't even play the game? That's pretty sad. If that is indeed the case you can't be that much of a WoW fan...Then you make the point saying 'doesn't appeal to me'...Flying is the only thing that appeals to you lol? Ummmm.. Ok then.

Well i guess take care then *wave*

- - - Updated - - -

Flying only breaks the game because they refuse to design around flying. They'd rather drop us on a railroad through content so we don't break things by bypassing boring content.


The highest point for WoW was after they added flying. But flying wasn't the only thing that made WoW so popular. Just like removing it won't suddenly make the game more popular again.

Yeah and i don't blame them. The boring content holds no water...The alternative is hitting auto fly on your mount so don't even try to make up reasons. It's because you want the convenience and easy street.

It was a high point because it was new and everyone was excited and it didn't have none of the issues at the time. Was like trying cocaine for the first time, we were all happy...Fast forward many years later and now it's suffering the backlash and side effects.

[Serenais]

Nope nope nope nope nope

Im a design student and i love game design and the removal of flying mounts is forward not backwards.

Why? Because "design wise" for the first time in years the players will be playing content designed by the developers while with flying mounts everything developed by the creative team can be skipped (unless placed inside a cave...fun).
If a bridge is broken you will have to go around or find the way to make across. (ex: Timeless Isle Flame Chest)
If you have to jump from rock to rock in a river filled with sharks to get to the other side, you will feel the gameplay.
If you are playing in a jungle with pit traps all over the place, same thing.

With flying mounts EVERYTHING design wise can be skiped. So what im saying is:
Removal of flying mounts = more space for creativity in gameplay

I would care to disagree. Something that tends to be forgotten - even though it gets repeated in this and other threads - is that being forced into the same content again and again promotes stereotype. Promoting stereotype is one of the worst game design choices one can make, they shorten the lifespan of the game, simply because stereotype isn't fun. Flying allows to bypass already "consumed" content, allowing to keep the player at their gameplay interest, not at what used to be a gameplay interest. If a bridge is broken, finding a route around is fun the first time. The thirtieth time having to go around the lake will be annoying, not fun. Having to jump over rocks because there's danger below to get to the other side is fun the first time. The thirtieth time, it's annoying, especially if it still results in death (to give you a direct gameplay example, GW2 includes jumping puzzles. I do not know of anyone who would do a jumping puzzle after the first completion for any other result than the daily/monthly achievement reward, and even then they choose the jumping puzzles that take the least effort). If you are going over pit traps, it is fun the first time. Having to go through that the thirtieth time is annoying, not fun. In all three cases, what used to be the gameplay focus, overtime becomes a hurdle keeping the player from the gameplay focus. It was the reason why gated dailies in MoP were met with disdain - doing Golden Lotus dailies, even though the Vale of Eternal Blossoms was designed really well, was simply not fun the second month in before other factions (and more dailies) were unlocked, thus leading to the daily quest fiasco.
Hence why many people state that keeping flying at the top level - which, bar Vanilla and Cataclysm, was the current model until now - seems the best way to go. Doing otherwise means one of two extremes - flying all the way means skipped content (though, one might ask WHY players skip the content first before finding a way how to stop it), no flying at all means being forced into content already rendered obsolete. There are other things that no flying means, one of them being forcing a flat environment topology. Considering that we are told that there's a sentient flying race in Draenor, a flat topology doesn't make any sense. Put in how much WoW is centered around combat and the fact that whoever controls the airspace wins a war, and you get a VERY good reason why being forced onto the ground, while still somehow winning against the Arrakoa would break immersion, thus make content less succesful than it otherwise would be. Also, being forced to the ground removes the possibility of aditional content for exploration (lakes in Kalimdor, that were there quite obviously simply for the sake of being found, added in Cataclysm; waterfalls in Kun-Lai; rock needles around Jade Forest; etc.). Removing flying will result in this content being not only no longer necessary, it would be downright pointless. Therefore no flying means that creativity will be forced onto a singular plane with limited options, as compared to a full 3D topography/complex topology.
Therefore, yes, removing flying is going backwards to a simpler environment design. No flying means having to resort to design around where player can reasonably get, and while a single sample of immediate surroundings might end up with more detail, in total, the overall environment will end up poorer because of the enforced limitations.

[TyrianFC]

Nope nope nope nope nope

Im a design student and i love game design and the removal of flying mounts is forward not backwards.

Why? Because "design wise" for the first time in years the players will be playing content designed by the developers while with flying mounts everything developed by the creative team can be skipped (unless placed inside a cave...fun).
If a bridge is broken you will have to go around or find the way to make across. (ex: Timeless Isle Flame Chest)
If you have to jump from rock to rock in a river filled with sharks to get to the other side, you will feel the gameplay.
If you are playing in a jungle with pit traps all over the place, same thing.

With flying mounts EVERYTHING design wise can be skiped. So what im saying is:
Removal of flying mounts = more space for creativity in gameplay

How refreshing to read this style of (correct and accurate) analysis of the situation.

lakes in Kalimdor, that were there quite obviously simply for the sake of being found, added in Cataclysm; waterfalls in Kun-Lai; rock needles around Jade Forest; etc.). Removing flying will result in this content being not only no longer necessary, it would be downright pointless. Therefore no flying means that creativity will be forced onto a singular plane with limited options, as compared to a full 3D topography/complex topology.

How amusingly shortsighted and naive of you. I hope you dont expect anyone except other pro-flying trolls to believe it.

If flying is removed - there is nothing stopping Blizzard still being able to do fun stuff like the taxi rides on the albatross (to take you to that Waterfall in the hills in Kun lai), Short Term flying buffs like the puzzle game on timeless isle from some herb in Jade Forrest (to fly up the rock needles in Jade Forrest). Use your imagination, instead of crying something is impossible because xyz.

The notion that 'flying is removed = we cant do X anymore' is as inaccurate as it is stupid. No flying for players anywhere+everywhere doesnt mean the game cant still play around with it, and toy with the idea of flying related content when an appropriate opportunity presents itself. The above were just 2 quick examples.

[Serenais]

How refreshing to read this style of (correct and accurate) analysis of the situation.

It does not address forced repetition of content that is no longer interesting that no flying would enforce.

[TyrianFC]

It does not address forced repetition of content that is no longer interesting that no flying would enforce.

Hence, in part, why Blizzard has already commented a newer, more extensive, smarter and much more convenient Flight Path network is being taken seriously after years of FP neglect - and a priority to 'get right' for WoD.

You should be worrying whether they'll get that right, instead of your quoted comment, because somebody smarter than both of us at Blizzard has already thought about this.

[Serenais]

How amusingly shortsighted and naive of you. I hope you dont expect anyone except other pro-flying trolls to believe it.

Might I inquire why having a different opinion and debating it is trolling? That's borderline insulting, thank you very much. You might outright state that if my opinion differs, I should not participate in a discussion at all.

If flying is removed - there is nothing stopping Blizzard still being able to do fun stuff like the taxi rides on the albatross (to take you to that Waterfall in the hills in Kun lai), Short Term flying buffs like the puzzle game on timeless isle from some herb in Jade Forrest (to fly up the rock needles in Jade Forrest). Use your imagination, instead of crying something is impossible because xyz.

Taxis like albatros are nothing but an elaborate version of a flight path, and do not address the problem of forcing the player into content they are no longer interested in. Besides, if I could ask you to read a few pages back, I did offer a few solutions to problems supposedly coming with flying without the necessity of removing a tool already widely in use. If you believe that is crying, I would ask for your definition of a discussion, then.
Besides, adding local area flying replacements only serve to further point out that flying can't be fully removed anyway - the tool has to remain there, the game will only tell the player when and how exactly they can use that tool. Again, forcing a choice on the player instead of nudging him in the right direction. Bad gameplay design.

The notion that 'flying is removed = we cant do X anymore' is as inaccurate as it is stupid. No flying for players anywhere+everywhere doesnt mean the game cant still play around with it, and toy with the idea of flying related content when an appropriate opportunity presents itself. The above were just 2 quick examples.

Removal of flying means players no longer being able to fly, with all the rammifications that it will impose. If you would want to imply that once a route around a lake with a broken bridge is found the game will subsequently open a shortcut over the lake, firstly, you haven't read my post fully and/or I need to reformulate it. Either way, your solutions, as valid as they might be, would require considerable effort on Blizzard's side, since if they do indeed plan to have a rich world the players would welcome, they'd have to implement MANY shortcuts over content that is no longer of any relevance, such as areas where all quests are already done - which is something I find VERY unlikely to happen.

Again. If you wish to discuss, do not insult others. One, insults do not promote a discussion, they promote a flame fest, and two, they are the least likely to make someone change their mind about the issue.
Thank you.

- - - Updated - - -

Hence, in part, why Blizzard has already commented a newer, more extensive, smarter and much more convenient Flight Path network is being taken seriously after years of FP neglect - and a priority to 'get right' for WoD.

You should be worrying whether they'll get that right, instead of your quoted comment, because somebody smarter than both of us at Blizzard has already thought about this.

If they implement a dense flight path network, which is what seems to be implied, they will defeat the first purpose of no flying right there on the spot - players will still do most of the traveling above the environment, not in it. All the while removing all the possible interaction with the environment, since the only thing a player can do while on a flight path is look around. If they do NOT plan to implement a dense network of flight paths, you get back to the forced obsolete content problem.

[Fenixdown]

Hence, in part, why Blizzard has already commented a newer, more extensive, smarter and much more convenient Flight Path network is being taken seriously after years of FP neglect - and a priority to 'get right' for WoD.

You should be worrying whether they'll get that right, instead of your quoted comment, because somebody smarter than both of us at Blizzard has already thought about this.

Except they made 18 flight paths and 144 different "rare spawn" items, events, or or creatures. Some, I would guess, of which will drop pets. Wasteoftime Isle was completely abandoned by me because of that pis poor design schematic MONTHS ago, even on my alt death knight who can use it to get gear upgrades (I don't even bother).

They already got it wrong. Try again. The expansion is Wasteoftime Continent. You'll spend more time at max level alt/tabbed waiting for Silver Dragon to go off in the background than you actually will playing the game. I dunno about you, but that sounds about as fun to me as playing a game of Tetris where I only get one block to drop down every 30-60 minutes. Imagine if Tetris worked that way. Would you play it?

[TyrianFC]

Wasteoftime Isle was completely abandoned by me because of that pis poor design schematic MONTHS ago, even on my alt death knight who can use it to get gear upgrades (I don't even bother).

That's unfortunate for you, but it was a smashing success for everyone else. So much so, in fact, that their in large part designing big chunks of the next expansion around its philosophy. Unless, of course, you think they're just doing that for fun or because everyone hated Timeless Isle and this will give them a good laugh, or something.

The rest of your melodramatic rants, such as renaming game features to lame stuff like 'Wasteoftime Continent / Isle' do nothing but make one look as stupid as they sound when typing them.

If they implement a dense flight path network, which is what seems to be implied, they will defeat the first purpose of no flying right there on the spot - players will still do most of the traveling above the environment, not in it. All the while removing all the possible interaction with the environment, since the only thing a player can do while on a flight path is look around. If they do NOT plan to implement a dense network of flight paths, you get back to the forced obsolete content problem.

Although you are (finally) correct about something, the obvious answer here is that it's just a matter of balance between two extremes. An extensive FP network that serves to placate the proflying bees eager to trivialise the game on a whim with their travels, yet not so effective that you may as well allow flying anyway due to how extensive it is. Its Blizzards job to get that right and, presumably, will be a major focus and source of feedback during beta to ensure they're on the right track to doing just that.

[-Superman-]

Why try to throw 5 band-aids on it when the best solution is it's removal.

Ever hear the expression don't throw the baby out with the bathwater? Flying is OP. Flight DOES need to be balanced. It does not need to be removed completely. Rather than blindly following Blizz, and allow them to remove features from the game, why not insist they fix them instead? Your argument thus far sounds like this:

Warlock chaos bolts are OP. We should remove warlocks from the game.

Seems a bit silly to remove warlocks, since they have been in the game for 10 years. It might make more sense to adjust the chaos bolt so it is on par with other DPS abilities. Before you go burning all the books in the library, maybe you should just have a book sale

[Serenais]

That's unfortunate for you, but it was a smashing success for everyone else. So much so, in fact, that their in large part designing big chunks of the next expansion around its philosophy. Unless, of course, you think they're just doing that for fun or because everyone hated Timeless Isle and this will give them a good laugh, or something.

Timeless Isle's success was dubious at best. Theck points out a few major flaws, and I personally see the major flaw of Timeless Isle that it provides little in terms of story, and outside Ordos and the Celestials, it is nothing but insane amount of grind. It felt as an attempt at a GW2-like zone, and, it didn't seem to fare that well in that aspect (at least to me, having played GW2). On top of that, almost nobody from my guild does visit the Isle anymore, bar the short phase when they are gearing an alt. All in all, a continent that would be "a few bossfights, several random encounters and otherwise grind, grind and more grind" sounds like very mindless design, not to mention that it quite butchers immersion.
That's not on topic when it comes to flying, however.

Although you are (finally) correct about something, the obvious answer here is that it's just a matter of balance between two extremes. An extensive FP network that serves to placate the proflying bees eager to trivialise the game on a whim with their travels, yet not so effective that you may as well allow flying anyway due to how extensive it is. Its Blizzards job to get that right and, presumably, will be a major focus and source of feedback during beta to ensure they're on the right track to doing just that.

It still will present a problem that players will do most of their travel time in the air. Outdoor activities that were not done much up till now, when there is a convenient tool to get out and be active, won't suddenly be done more when getting to them will become inconvenient. The ballance technically can be stricken, but it is a VERY fine one (otherwise we either get the overload of flight points like there seems to be in low level areas in EK/Kalimdor, or one/two/no flight points in a zone as it used to be in Vanilla), and if the ballance is actually stricken, using the flight paths to travel from point A to point B will have very similar effect travel-wise as flight itself, with the possible inflight interaction with ground (that is, flying down and interacting with ground countent) removed. Of course, Blizzard could revamp flying on a flight path to allow ending the flight before reaching the flight path's end, but that would require a revamp of how the flight paths work. Again, the amount of effort required for that to happen makes it quite unlikely.

[Mafic]

Nope nope nope nope nope

Im a design student and i love game design and the removal of flying mounts is forward not backwards.

Why? Because "design wise" for the first time in years the players will be playing content designed by the developers while with flying mounts everything developed by the creative team can be skipped (unless placed inside a cave...fun).
If a bridge is broken you will have to go around or find the way to make across. (ex: Timeless Isle Flame Chest)
If you have to jump from rock to rock in a river filled with sharks to get to the other side, you will feel the gameplay.
If you are playing in a jungle with pit traps all over the place, same thing.

With flying mounts EVERYTHING design wise can be skiped. So what im saying is:
Removal of flying mounts = more space for creativity in gameplay

I don't want to play a platformer as I did 25+ years ago before most of the WoW playerbase was born.

WoW is part of the 2014 MMORPG paradigm not during the golden age of platformers SNES and SEGA GENESIS.

That is why Timeless Isle "features" was such a big failure because the gaming world has moved on from platformers. FPS still hold on as well as RTS but MMO's have become prevalent now.

Timeless Isle's success was dubious at best. Theck points out a few major flaws, and I personally see the major flaw of Timeless Isle that it provides little in terms of story, and outside Ordos and the Celestials, it is nothing but insane amount of grind. It felt as an attempt at a GW2-like zone, and, it didn't seem to fare that well in that aspect (at least to me, having played GW2). On top of that, almost nobody from my guild does visit the Isle anymore, bar the short phase when they are gearing an alt. All in all, a continent that would be "a few bossfights, several random encounters and otherwise grind, grind and more grind" sounds like very mindless design, not to mention that it quite butchers immersion.
That's not on topic when it comes to flying, however.


It still will present a problem that players will do most of their travel time in the air. Outdoor activities that were not done much up till now, when there is a convenient tool to get out and be active, won't suddenly be done more when getting to them will become inconvenient. The ballance technically can be stricken, but it is a VERY fine one (otherwise we either get the overload of flight points like there seems to be in low level areas in EK/Kalimdor, or one/two/no flight points in a zone as it used to be in Vanilla), and if the ballance is actually stricken, using the flight paths to travel from point A to point B will have very similar effect travel-wise as flight itself, with the possible inflight interaction with ground (that is, flying down and interacting with ground countent) removed. Of course, Blizzard could revamp flying on a flight path to allow ending the flight before reaching the flight path's end, but that would require a revamp of how the flight paths work. Again, the amount of effort required for that to happen makes it quite unlikely.

I agree 100%.

Timeless Isle was a complete failure.

[Mjau]

Nope nope nope nope nope

Im a design student and i love game design and the removal of flying mounts is forward not backwards.

Why? Because "design wise" for the first time in years the players will be playing content designed by the developers while with flying mounts everything developed by the creative team can be skipped (unless placed inside a cave...fun).
If a bridge is broken you will have to go around or find the way to make across. (ex: Timeless Isle Flame Chest)
If you have to jump from rock to rock in a river filled with sharks to get to the other side, you will feel the gameplay.
If you are playing in a jungle with pit traps all over the place, same thing.

With flying mounts EVERYTHING design wise can be skiped. So what im saying is:
Removal of flying mounts = more space for creativity in gameplay

I like this post. Too much convenience makes it dull. You always need contrast, even in games. You need a few "boring" and "frustrating" bits to make the fun and rewarding bits stand out a lot more, or everything becomes dull. As the open world should be a huge part of this game, making it dull and too convenient kills it IMO.
Even without flying, the world is still far from dangerous and difficult to move around. Portals and flypaths, HS have a really short cooldown and you don't even have to move out to the dungeons anymore. If it were up to me, all that would be gone too However, I realize that's not very realistic.

[Mafic]

WoW is not Lineage or Ultima Online. Stop trying to make it like "those" games.

The garrisons idea is starting to become ultra restrictive and throw in the anti flying stance and we are seeing an expansion that is going to be on railroad tracks. The biggest complaint about Cata and MoP was the questing (Cata was railroaded while MoP questing was tied with progression). At least in Cata you could use a flying mount to make the questing seem dynamic instead of being so linear and scripted. MoP flying opened up the possibilities of reasonably doing quests in Dread Wastes. Imagine how barren that zone would be if there was no flying?

Look at the maps they have release the geomorphological features that can be seen from the topographic view shows they haven't learned a thing about how poorly a continent can be designed (MoP).

[Giscoicus]

Ever hear the expression don't throw the baby out with the bathwater? Flying is OP. Flight DOES need to be balanced. It does not need to be removed completely. Rather than blindly following Blizz, and allow them to remove features from the game, why not insist they fix them instead? Your argument thus far sounds like this:

Warlock chaos bolts are OP. We should remove warlocks from the game.

Seems a bit silly to remove warlocks, since they have been in the game for 10 years. It might make more sense to adjust the chaos bolt so it is on par with other DPS abilities. Before you go burning all the books in the library, maybe you should just have a book sale

Pray tell how do you balance something thy breaks all restrictions and has NO downside? Chaos bolt has a long cast time and high resource cost.

[Serenais]

Pray tell how do you balance something thy breaks all restrictions and has NO downside? Chaos bolt has a long cast time and high resource cost.

You can restrict flying that it would apply only to players who are already done with large portions of the ground content - for example, make it available only to top level players, put it behind a questline, etc. The options are there.

[Mafic]

Pray tell how do you balance something thy breaks all restrictions and has NO downside? Chaos bolt has a long cast time and high resource cost.

Flying has downsides.

Teleporting doesn't. Teleports still exist in WoW and the last few times they have been removed it has been an utter disaster. Imagine playing any other MMORPG if they removed portals?

Teleoports/flying/fast travel is a CORNERSTONE of MMORPG game play now. Those that advocate the MMO industry go backwards in design are extremists and fortunately in the minority. Lineage 2 has teleports but disables the ports near the siege site during siege times.

There are ways to keep fast travel as an option but still balanced. Now only has other MMO found innovative ways to do so but the WoW devs have done so in the past.

If there is a will there is a way.

[Joey Ray III]

that is why Timeless Isle "features" was such a big failure because the gaming world has moved on from platformers.

every second indie game is a platformer and isn't mario selling like hot cakes?

Timeless Isle was a complete failure.

lol, i can assure you it wasn't a failure by any stretch otherwise they wouldn't be designing an entire continent around the same concept.

[Mafic]

I'd argue that looking up the locations makes stuff like that more trivial than being able to fly around.

Yup.

The discovery portion of questing is finding out how to complete a quest.