Time to nerf echo of elements?

[Illana]

Echo of Elements is fine. Try to say above 40% so it does not matter if this happens or not. Just be glad the shaman was not speced into a better talent.

I was above 50%

if you add up all that damage I took it's over 250k and I have about 506k hp in pvp gear.

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Looks like you ignored Flame Shock and it cost you.

Log Says you did:
Flame Shock - damage
Lava Burst
Lava Burst
Earth Shock << Shares same CD as Flame Shock. Which means you let it tick on you for a while, every tick has the chance for a Lava Burst proc, plus it's a damage modifier for Lava Burst.
Melee Damage
Lava Burst << That one killed you

I wonder if half the posters here have any experience apart from random bgs and really low rated 2vs2

Dispel has an 8 second cd, flame shock has 5 second cd. Trying to dispel flame shocks is a great way to get yourself landed in full ccs with no outs.

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Elemental shamans have really strong survivabilty,its a fact and they arent really hard to play as a specc,these are the exacts words from a 2,2k cr elem shaman.I had to ask a friend about it and he agreed.The nature's guardian is one of the strongest talents in the game as well,rallying cry only for the shaman every 30 secs.Its true that shamans suffer from melees but which caster doesnt?
An other elemental shaman 2,7k cr is talking about the survibility of the specc as well "Eles are ridiculously tanky. If you can master enchant swapping you should never die vs anything in arena. Rockbiter passively gives 5% damage reduction and a further 40% on the target you use it on iirc. UF should be played 100% of the time as ele imo, ele blast just isn't as good. But eles take a passive 10% less damage, and have a 30% shield wall. Survivability is really not an issue for ele. "

my god I didn't even think about rockbiter, granted it's 2 globals and requires unleash to be up but that's still pretty strong.

everyone who says eles are squishy probably just don't have any idea, I find warriors easier to kill than eles if i'm going to be honest.

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1. Granted, but I'm not surprised at all considering melee classes are our biggest hard counter, which is where physical damage comes from. I'd even go as far as saying we're the worst class to use against a melee cleave. Why LSD is so successful for Elemental is because Gateway completely eliminates our hard counter. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Warlocks. Besides, other classes make up for this by having more crowd control or mobility.

2. Of course we do, but we lack in almost every other area because of it. Anything a Shaman can do, another class can do better. We're designed around team play and that's the way it's always been.

3. Besides Healing Tide Totem, our healing is completely viable and any complaints towards the rest is obvious trolling. If you played an Elemental Shaman you'd realize that.

4. It's a talent, which we give up two other talents for, like every other class in the game. Not to mention that 25% extra health isn't 25% damage mitigation as people seem to think it is. As I said before, we're highly vulnerable to melee cleaves so that extra 25% health is basically a small breathing space.

P.S Nobody has a right to judge a class they've never played, and I assume you haven't based on your utterly stupid statements.

once again, we are SOLELY talking about team play.

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Sorry, but if you're having problems with an ele shaman as a hunter, then it's most certainly a learn to play issue. They are a support class. 1v1 they don't really do much when any decent player of any class can lock them down. Have you ever played a shaman or are you just upset you got blown up by a lucky EoE lava burst proc?

I have a shaman yes but I mainly play enhancement/resto. Nobody cares about 1vs1

[Deleted]

It's funny how you have a macro called focus wyvern, which actually casts wyvern sting on arena1.

[Illana]

It's funny how you have a macro called focus wyvern, which actually casts wyvern sting on arena1.

im pretty sure that's nothing to do with anything in this thread or has any relevance to anything in general

[Kotori125]

I failed to tranq shot? You realise it has a resource cost? How can I magically predict when his RANDOM clearcasting procs are coming up, DISPEL BOTH of them on top of any other buffs he has up, DISPEL unleash before he has time to cast an INSTANT spell?

Well, to be honest, this could be possible through predicting the setup. If he just cast a flame shock, you should expect unleash elements, which you would then tranq the buff after he casts that as he is waiting on his gcd to use his instant lava burst. If flame shock was already on you, then its different, as you can only react to the unleash elements, rather than reacting to the flame shock. Theoretically possible to counter, in practice is always different though. Plus doesn't clearcasting proc whenever ele shamans crit with a non dot? Again, theoretically possible to predict and counter with split-second decisions. Making it sound impossible to do is ridiculous; improbable is acceptable, though isn't that what pvp 'skill' is about (doing the improbable)?

[Illana]

Well, to be honest, this could be possible through predicting the setup. If he just cast a flame shock, you should expect unleash elements, which you would then tranq the buff after he casts that as he is waiting on his gcd to use his instant lava burst. If flame shock was already on you, then its different, as you can only react to the unleash elements, rather than reacting to the flame shock. Theoretically possible to counter, in practice is always different though. Plus doesn't clearcasting proc whenever ele shamans crit with a non dot? Again, theoretically possible to predict and counter with split-second decisions. Making it sound impossible to do is ridiculous; improbable is acceptable, though isn't that what pvp 'skill' is about (doing the improbable)?

what you're saying isn't improbable: it's ridiculous. I would have to spend every last drop of focus on tranq shotting.

[apepi]

I was above 50%

if you add up all that damage I took it's over 250k and I have about 506k hp in pvp gear.

That may be a large amount of damage but...it is not like other classes do not have it. Chaos Bolts, Chimera Shots,EnShamans, and many other classes have as much burst as this.

[Illana]

That may be a large amount of damage but...it is not like other classes do not have it. Chaos Bolts, Chimera Shots,EnShamans, and many other classes have as much burst as this.

chaos bolt ive seen hit for around 200k, it also requires a lot of setup including a 2minute cd and nothing to interrupt you during its 1.8ish second cast

chimera shot hits for around 120k with double trinkets up

enhshamans can only do it once every 3 minutes.

what other classes can match 250k in one global that could happen every time proc trinket is up?

[zenga]

what you're saying isn't improbable: it's ridiculous. I would have to spend every last drop of focus on tranq shotting.

Knowing what/when to dispel and what/when not to sets (among other things) a good player apart from an average player. Dispelling is a core arena mechanic, just like CC is. Again the condition to do the dmg in your screenshot for an ele in ilvl 537 requires multiple procs + unleash flame and clearcasting. It's the same when a mage has incanter's absorption + fingers of frost procs up with alter time. You cc, you purge or you pop a defensive cd. Or you ignore it and you die. When I play ele vs e.g mls is spend the majority of my time purging the mage and decursing my team to stop agony from doing dmg/get rid off curses when their hex is on cd. It's exactly the same why you would dispel sac on a kill target before bursting. And I do exactly the same on my mage, spriest and hunter.

Seriously, complaining that you died because you didn't dispel a 30% and a 20% dmg modifier simply because you don't want to spend all focus on tranq shot is stupid.

[Illana]

Knowing what/when to dispel and what/when not to sets (among other things) a good player apart from an average player. Dispelling is a core arena mechanic, just like CC is. Again the condition to do the dmg in your screenshot for an ele in ilvl 537 requires multiple procs + unleash flame and clearcasting. It's the same when a mage has incanter's absorption + fingers of frost procs up with alter time. You cc, you purge or you pop a defensive cd. Or you ignore it and you die. When I play ele vs e.g mls is spend the majority of my time purging the mage and decursing my team to stop agony from doing dmg/get rid off curses when their hex is on cd. It's exactly the same why you would dispel sac on a kill target before bursting. And I do exactly the same on my mage, spriest and hunter.

Seriously, complaining that you died because you didn't dispel a 30% and a 20% dmg modifier simply because you don't want to spend all focus on tranq shot is stupid.

Yes dispelling is easy for the other classes that have it because it has no meaningful cost to their resource. One tranq shot is 1/5 of my entire focus bar.

mages don't randomly get fingers, they have to pop orb or a pet freeze and that's at least VISIBLE, also mages don't global you for half your health, I've only seen ice lances under 90k and that's even from double trinket humans.

I can therefore have time to pop something defensive or use cc, but this situation with shamans it's next to imposible.

[zenga]

Yes dispelling is easy for the other classes that have it because it has no meaningful cost to their resource. One tranq shot is 1/5 of my entire focus bar.

With a full focus bar, steady focus up you can do 6 back to back dispels. With fervor 11 or 12. And none says you have to purge a target back to back, over the course of the fight you should keep your target as clean as possible (obviously vs a disc or resto druid team this is slightly harder).

mages don't randomly get fingers, they have to pop orb or a pet freeze

Fingers of Frost
Your successful Frostbolts, Frostfire Bolts and Frozen Orb hits have a 15% chance, and your Blizzard ticks have a 5% chance to grant you the Fingers of Frost effect.

... and that's at least VISIBLE

Are you implying that you can't see buff/debuff auras on unitbars? Or the shaman being completely covered in a red glow when he gains the unleash flame buff isn't visible to you?

also mages don't global you for half your health, I've only seen ice lances under 90k and that's even from double trinket humans.

Guess you haven't faced a good mage then.

I can therefore have time to pop something defensive or use cc, but this situation with shamans it's next to imposible.

Again you got hit by a series of events that a/ have an absurd low chance to happen all together and b/ you failed to react to the threat at 50% health. Ever faced a good rmd where you don't react perfect to their opener? You will be dead. Ever happened to go 100 to 0 vs a boomkin team for who the stars align? It's the nature of the game that there is rng (crit is the prime example), every arena session even the best teams out there have a game where the rng is completely stacked against them. Deal with it.

[Illana]

With a full focus bar, steady focus up you can do 6 back to back dispels. With fervor 11 or 12. And none says you have to purge a target back to back, over the course of the fight you should keep your target as clean as possible (obviously vs a disc or resto druid team this is slightly harder).

"IF" I have full focus, its not like shamans, mages or priests who don't even have to worry about their resource before purging. Also steady focus has absolutely 0 effect on our passive focus regen so I don't even know why you are mentioning it, however you are right: IF I have a full focus bar I can do 6 dispels in a row. The shaman can also get new buffs while these dispels happen as well: ever though of that? Also it will take me at least 4 seconds of steady shotting to even get another chimera out. You talk as if hunter dispelling is something we can do all the time, testament to the fact you've probably never played a hunter at any meaningful rating.

I played resto in arena at 1.8k+, purging costs mana but it's a damn sight easier to do than hoping you have focus for when you need to tranq shot something.

Also nobody uses fervor, so that's not even a valid point.

Fingers of Frost
Your successful Frostbolts, Frostfire Bolts and Frozen Orb hits have a 15% chance, and your Blizzard ticks have a 5% chance to grant you the Fingers of Frost effect.

Cause mages get to cast so many frostbolts in arena. Maybe at the very low rating you play at.

Are you implying that you can't see buff/debuff auras on unitbars? Or the shaman being completely covered in a red glow when he gains the unleash flame buff isn't visible to you?

I can see it, but think about this for example: I have 3 defensive cooldowns. Roar of sac and 2 deterrences, without these I might as well be dead. If I use one of these cooldowns, which are on a 1minute and 2 minute cooldown respectively, to prevent something that can happen every 15 seconds: what on earth do I do when the shaman decides to use ascendance?

Guess you haven't faced a good mage then.

Show me a mage doing 250k in one global, I dare you.

Again you got hit by a series of events that a/ have an absurd low chance to happen all together and b/ you failed to react to the threat at 50% health. Ever faced a good rmd where you don't react perfect to their opener? You will be dead. Ever happened to go 100 to 0 vs a boomkin team for who the stars align? It's the nature of the game that there is rng (crit is the prime example), every arena session even the best teams out there have a game where the rng is completely stacked against them. Deal with it.

I didn't fail to react, there was no opportunity for me to react. I was already pulling back at that point and the lava burst was sent at me from max range, so I couldn't even dispel (35yards on tranq shot). RMD you don't need to react perfectly, a silence on the mage and a wyvern into scatter on the rogue is all it takes to ruin any opener a rogue/mage can pull off.

I've never seen a boomkin team oneshot anyone from half hp no.

RNG is RNG but it's never to the point where you can pull off 250k+ damage in one global from ONE person.

[zenga]

Also nobody uses fervor, so that's not even a valid point.

Out of all the highest hunters in the EU on the 3v3 ladder, there are only 2 who don't use fervor: 2 players who are clearly carries.

I played resto in arena at 1.8k+, purging costs mana but it's a damn sight easier to do than hoping you have focus for when you need to tranq shot something.

No doubt that purging is easier/less resource intensive for most other classes. But then again there are other things that are easier to do on hunters than on other classes. It's not because it's harder that you can't/shouldn't do it when you are in that situation.

I can see it, but think about this for example: I have 3 defensive cooldowns. Roar of sac and 2 deterrences, without these I might as well be dead. If I use one of these cooldowns, which are on a 1minute and 2 minute cooldown respectively, to prevent something that can happen every 15 seconds: what on earth do I do when the shaman decides to use ascendance?

Do you really want me to sum up all the instant cc you have? And it's not like you are playing 3v3 without teammates.

Show me a mage doing 250k in one global, I dare you.

Not gonna discuss the 1 global concept again, I already explained it and that was to no avail. But assuming that the beginning of the global is the first ice lance, and the end of the global is the 2nd ice lance, with living bomb ticking and frozen orb into a target that is in a deep, then 250k is more than regular for mages over the course of that 1,2s or whatever their gcd is. (Not even mentioning fire mages). For clarity, frozen orb -> deep -> bomb -> ice lance -> ice lance (and the dmg is counting from the impact of the first ice lance till the impact of the 2nd ice lance).

[Stormspellz]

you did fail to react, you got to 50% with 2 people still teeing off on you, its the nature of the game. As bad as elemental is designed, the weakest talent in tree isn't the big problem, let alone as a hunter your class is the picture of everything wrong with pvp this expansion. You can go to nearly every spec and go "this shouldn't be in the game". Let me say it again since you aren't getting -you are complaining about something nearly no one takes because its that bad.

[woopytywoop]

Illana got RNG'ed to death at 1600 and the poor thing got all upset and started a 5page thread over a talent no one uses.

Idk, but i'd just queue for the next and not be stuck at 1600.

[Illana]

Out of all the highest hunters in the EU on the 3v3 ladder, there are only 2 who don't use fervor: 2 players who are clearly carries.


No doubt that purging is easier/less resource intensive for most other classes. But then again there are other things that are easier to do on hunters than on other classes. It's not because it's harder that you can't/shouldn't do it when you are in that situation.


Do you really want me to sum up all the instant cc you have? And it's not like you are playing 3v3 without teammates.


Not gonna discuss the 1 global concept again, I already explained it and that was to no avail. But assuming that the beginning of the global is the first ice lance, and the end of the global is the 2nd ice lance, with living bomb ticking and frozen orb into a target that is in a deep, then 250k is more than regular for mages over the course of that 1,2s or whatever their gcd is. (Not even mentioning fire mages). For clarity, frozen orb -> deep -> bomb -> ice lance -> ice lance (and the dmg is counting from the impact of the first ice lance till the impact of the 2nd ice lance).

I stand corrected on fervor, guess it's time to give it a try.

Instant cc we have that could stop the situation I was in: silencing shot.

The one global concept is a complete joke. You keep going on about it and don't see how wrong you are. Hunters shots have a travel time just like spells, so by the time I've fired that aimed shot all the shaman damage has already landed and it will take the time of the aimed shot landing before the damage hits: understand?

Your description of the mage burst is fairly accurate, but tell me: how much setup is that compared to a shaman? Yeah.

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you did fail to react, you got to 50% with 2 people still teeing off on you, its the nature of the game. As bad as elemental is designed, the weakest talent in tree isn't the big problem, let alone as a hunter your class is the picture of everything wrong with pvp this expansion. You can go to nearly every spec and go "this shouldn't be in the game". Let me say it again since you aren't getting -you are complaining about something nearly no one takes because its that bad.

It's not about being bad or good, it's about it being broken. Like how the warrior 5 stack tfb was, you could literally 2 shot someone due to RNG and this is heavily similar.

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So I went to check, you really are the hunter that I was laughing at when you were defending the 400 % dmg bug stampede on these forums. Still complaining about useless stuff at low rating as well I see.

Yup, got any proof of that or you just enjoy talking out of your ass?

[Stormspellz]

hunters 100% mobility while doing full damage, pet cc, instant cc, burst potential are all broken, its the state of the game. ONCE AGAIN you are crying wolf about a talent that no one is using.

you complain about "setup" when as a hunter you have extreme minimal setup as well.

[Illana]

hunters 100% mobility while doing full damage, pet cc, instant cc, burst potential are all broken, its the state of the game. ONCE AGAIN you are crying wolf about a talent that no one is using.

you complain about "setup" when as a hunter you have extreme minimal setup as well.

my no setup damage doesn't do 250k damage in one global, THAT'S THE POINT.

not sure why people keep qqing about a pet cc on a 2 minute cd.

[Deleted]

Angry hunter because he got killed by an already nerfed talent, awesome xD

Generally the WoW community is quite good at picking up which classes work best each season in arena. While not 100% accurate, the following site gives a good representation: http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-3-2-0.html following on from this, it shows the % use of talents for each spec in PvP http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-0-2-0.html

So lets break this down. A MM hunter (a class with higher representation in 3's above 2.2k) is complaining about a talent ele shaman (a class with lower representation) which less than 8% of the population uses. So basically you're complaining about 8% of people getting lucky 6% of the time. You can also check for representations at varying levels, I believe the only situation ele is more popular than MM is 5v5 above 2.2k, which truly is a small proportion of players.

Basically, your argument currently stands at "boohoo, I got killed by a shaman and now I want to cry and demand nerfs." Sorry mate, but you've got no leg to stand on. Either you got unlucky, failed to understand the games mechanics, or just wanted to cry and demand nerfs because you died, either way, you lost the match, gg, move on.

[Stormspellz]

my no setup damage doesn't do 250k damage in one global, THAT'S THE POINT.

not sure why people keep qqing about a pet cc on a 2 minute cd.

oh darn 2 globals, the horror, because its cc overload from a class that has plenty of instant cc already.

[zenga]

Yup, here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ure-and-simple

And here I talked shit about you: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post18942479

I was typing another post explaining, including a combat log. But after reading what you just linked I'm gonna refrain from doing that, it has been to no avail and it won't be to no avail. That link actually clarifies a lot. Thanks for that.