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  1. #581
    The Unstoppable Force Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    HA! I knew Unreal would crop up. Ya, that engine does over do quite a bit.



    LoL isn't an RPG though.

    Morning


    Around noon
    It looks terrible to me. Washed out colors. Boring uninspired props. Ill take wow anyday thank you. I think I just prefer a more cartoon styled game. Its why I think something like borderlands 2 looks better then bf4.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kazso View Post
    You think, that those 7.6m subscribers are all from US and EU?
    Around 4m subscribers are still asians, who don't pay a monthly fee. Only the rest (3.6m) are from US and EU.
    Willing to bet you are wrong. Theres a reason profits arent dropping. Its because most of the 4m that left were from asia. Betting on 5m west players at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gheld View Post
    When I finally decided to "de-commit" myself from WoW and go see what other games had to offer with an open mind, what amazed me was just how dated and sad WoW is now by comparison. So to those who say "Well I don't miss them". You shouldn't. A whole new world awaits them. They probably don't miss you either.

    WoW is essentially like a cult now. You play WoW, you devote all of your gaming time to WoW with no idea what is going on in the outside world (because you are so caught up on the accumulative investment you've made in the game) and if you finally do break free the first thing that happens is your eyes hurt because it's so damn bright out there.

    Like sure I stepped away to try Diablo 3 (since i got it "Free" on the annual pass) but then after I gave WoW a rest I logged onto steam to try out a bunch of different games, and my assessment; Blizzard has gone from serving gourmet meals to serving fast food (but the prices on the menu haven't changed).

    So I feel sorry for anybody amongst those 7.6 million people who believe that they are getting their money's worth for WoW.
    Funny, I feel the same way about all the other mmos. They feel cheap in comparison to wow. Yes ive tried nearly all of them. Nothing has the production value that wow does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gheld View Post
    MMO's are just bad in general. A novelty for the young shut-in. Really, nobody cares about the social aspect of them any way. Anybody who claims they play a game, from within the locked doors of their own home, for the purpose of socializing is being intellectually dishonest. It's all about E-Peen show-off, and a lot of non MMO games have E-Peen show-off built into them now.

    And I mean, if you're having a LAN party, and WoW is the game of the hour, that's one bad LAN party.

    Yeah, WoW probably operates the smoothest of any MMO, but that's probably because it's a 2004 game engine(older, yet including development) being played on 2010+ computers over 2014 internet connections. So of course it is going to play smoother than games that are newer will. All Blizzard has done to the game play is some graphical tweaks like adding DX11 support (unless you have an ATI card) and up the poly count on models and increase the terrain texture resolution.

    The game world is still an inorganic slop, models are still clipping balls, and any attempt to change any of that with their game engine has failed.

    If you want to pay hundreds of dollars a year for that, go for it. But I can assure you you aren't getting your money's worth.
    Don't try to tell me what I think my money is worth. Like i said, Tried other mmos. Nothing compares to wow for me. I went in with an open mind. Hell, I'm sick of wow, but other mmos feel 10 times more boring and clunky.

  2. #582
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolleDK View Post
    But the graphics are still terrible (compared to other games), but that doesn't seem to scare off people. In other words, graphics rarely makes the game, game play does, however.

    Naturally, it's all opinions, but I'm fairly certain most people won't stick around for long, if the only thing a game has to offer are pretty objects. Age of Conan, as an example, had (at the time of release) OMG graphics (although you needed a rather powerful PC to run it with those graphics) but rather crappy game play - lots of things weren't done when it was released. It has since resorted to a F2P model, and still contains many glitches far worse than WoW.

    For me, I like the graphics used in WoW, it's a special sort of graphics, that doesn't seem to try and mimic real life in the same way other MMO's do. And when they do have the audacity to up the graphics, tons of people complain they can't run the game quit as smoothly as they used to.

    New pretty graphics will surely attract new players (or old), but once they find that that is the only thing that's new, they'll soon quit again.
    It's also free though.

    FFXIV has gameplay to go along with it's graphics, that's why it's capable of growing and retaining players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    It looks terrible to me. Washed out colors. Boring uninspired props. Ill take wow anyday thank you. I think I just prefer a more cartoon styled game. Its why I think something like borderlands 2 looks better then bf4.
    Err ... OK.

    LOL.

    Dude it's call realistic lighting. Beats WoW's "colour filter" over everything method ...




    Last edited by SodiumChloride; 2014-05-08 at 06:29 PM.

  3. #583
    Quote Originally Posted by Gheld View Post
    So I feel sorry for anybody amongst those 7.6 million people who believe that they are getting their money's worth for WoW.
    I like how you generalize how people view what their time/money is worth.

  4. #584
    Quote Originally Posted by usiris View Post
    I like how you generalize how people view what their time/money is worth.
    Right? Making independent financial decisions is hard stuff, it's best to log into the internet and find someone beneath you so you can make justifications about swapping over to shit games that are out of content in 2 weeks.

    Also, a Final Fantasy MMO retaining customers, shit you could not have told me a better joke today, thanks for making me laugh. The game could be indecipherable from RL graphics wise and it will still flop faster than you can say Wildstar.
    Last edited by kippi; 2014-05-08 at 06:29 PM.

  5. #585
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    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    It's also free though.

    FFXIV has gameplay to go along with it's graphics, that's why it's capable of growing and retaining players.
    F2P now, yes. Wasn't at launch, and not for quite a while thereafter.

    As can be seen in the graph, WoW grew in numbers for 6 years, then started to lose players. It's now close to 10 years old. It's really not that surprising that subscriptions are going down. No amount of fancy new graphics is going to change that.

    In terms of subscribers, as far as I can tell, FFXIV is far off WoW's current subscribers. And WoW is much older, and apparently much uglier. What does that tell you?

    Just to be clear, I've got nothing against great graphics, or Blizzard improving the graphics of WoW - not at all - it's just not that important to me. I'd much, much rather have new content and great game play, graphics comes a clear second to that.

  6. #586
    The Unstoppable Force Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    It's also free though.

    FFXIV has gameplay to go along with it's graphics, that's why it's capable of growing and retaining players.



    Err ... OK.

    LOL.

    Dude it's call realistic lighting. Beats WoW's "colour filter" over everything method ...
    It has nothing to do with the lighting. I don't like the graphics style of the game.

    For example. Games I think look good.
    WoW
    Swtor
    Gw2 looks okay sometimes, but others looks too much like an oil painting for my taste, but in general I think it looks okay.

    Games I think are ugly.
    Rift
    the game you linked
    any other mmo trying to be more realistic rather than cartoony.

    Like I said, Borderlands2>bf4 any day.
    Last edited by Chickat; 2014-05-08 at 09:05 PM.

  7. #587
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolleDK View Post
    F2P now, yes. Wasn't at launch, and not for quite a while thereafter.

    As can be seen in the graph, WoW grew in numbers for 6 years, then started to lose players. It's now close to 10 years old. It's really not that surprising that subscriptions are going down. No amount of fancy new graphics is going to change that.
    Just saying the bad graphics isn't helping.

    In terms of subscribers, as far as I can tell, FFXIV is far off WoW's current subscribers. And WoW is much older, and apparently much uglier. What does that tell you?
    Inertia exists?

    Seriously, if WoW launched today in its current state, it will be laughed out of the market.

    Just to be clear, I've got nothing against great graphics, or Blizzard improving the graphics of WoW - not at all - it's just not that important to me. I'd much, much rather have new content and great game play, graphics comes a clear second to that.
    Just saying first impressions count. It doesn't matter how great your gameplay is if you can't even convince people to install your game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    It has nothing to do with the lighting. I don't like the graphics style of the game.

    For example. Games I think look good.
    WoW
    Swtor
    Gw2 looks okay sometimes, but others looks too much like an oil painting for my taste, but in general I think it looks okay.

    Games I think are ugly.
    Rift
    the game you linked
    any other mmo trying to be more realistic rather than cartoony.

    Like I said, Borderlands2>bf4 any day.
    Each to their own I guess.

    I have no problem with cartoony graphics per se, but WoW's is ... "underwhelming" to say the least.

  8. #588
    So if these numbers are correct they started losing players ever since they announced mists of pandaria at blizzcon 2011. Imagine what the numbers will be when the players that have not yet figured out theirs no flying in the next expansion.

  9. #589
    Quote Originally Posted by bryroo View Post
    I think it's a safe assumption to say that addiction is a large factor as well. More than technical hurdles at any rate.

    Blizzard isn't in a rush to get content out because a large amount of the player base is going to keep paying no matter what they do. Why make hold over patches or get the expansion finished in a reasonable amount of time when the players are showing them they're fine with running TI and SoO for another 6 months?
    I'm arguing with you on an MMO fansite where I have like 14,000 posts so I can't say that addiction isn't a factor!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  10. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by Markred View Post
    I think hes being sarcastic, ffxiv is supposed to be terrible :P
    hey ffxiv is pretty good.

    its just that nothing compares to wow.

  11. #591
    Yay! Warfare!
    Only to be expected

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    Quote Originally Posted by kazso View Post
    You think, that those 7.6m subscribers are all from US and EU?
    Around 4m subscribers are still asians, who don't pay a monthly fee. Only the rest (3.6m) are from US and EU.
    Ummm.... they actually do..... The only thing they don't pay is the Expansion Pack

  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia123 View Post
    Yay! Warfare!
    Only to be expected

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    Ummm.... they actually do..... The only thing they don't pay is the Expansion Pack
    *China has an Hourly Rate as far as wow goes

  13. #593
    Deleted
    For as long as the subscriber figures have been publicly available, there has been countless theories on the reasons behind the changes. Ultimately all of Blizzard's combined efforts affect that number - development, content, support, communication, marketing etc. -, so it's very hard to say "WoW lost X subscribers because exactly A". Anyway, I've taken some time to add more tooltips to chaud's graph - so at least we get some amount of context (click to enlarge):



    For reasons mentioned above I won't be able to draw any conclusions, but here are some observations for discussion:

    1) Major content releases appear to have little impact on overall subscriber base
    2) Localization appears to have a big impact on overall subscriber base
    3) The Annual Pass might have had the biggest impact on overall subscriber base of any one initative
    Last edited by mmoc0b3cb0c063; 2014-05-09 at 12:55 PM.

  14. #594
    Quote Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
    hey ffxiv is pretty good.
    My experience on FFXIV:

    (1) Install game.
    (2) Create character.
    (3) Sit there, appalled, while the beginning RP cutscenes play at like 5 fps.
    (4) Finally get to control the character, and discover that's about how fast the graphics work in general.
    (5) Log off and never go back.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  15. #595
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    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    Just saying the bad graphics isn't helping.
    I can only speak for myself, but if they changed the graphics so it looked like FFXIV, I'd never come back. I'm quite certain it makes no difference either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    Inertia exists?

    Seriously, if WoW launched today in its current state, it will be laughed out of the market.
    Same goes for FFXIV if we fast forward 10 years and launch it without changing anything. Seriously, what's you're point here?

    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    Just saying first impressions count. It doesn't matter how great your gameplay is if you can't even convince people to install your game.
    There's an English idiom that goes: "Don't judge the book by its cover", which seem to fit here nicely.

    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    Each to their own I guess.

    I have no problem with cartoony graphics per se, but WoW's is ... "underwhelming" to say the least.
    Each to their own indeed. Some people really dig the graphics of the Torchlight series. Others hate it.

  16. #596
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    My experience on FFXIV:

    (1) Install game.
    (2) Create character.
    (3) Sit there, appalled, while the beginning RP cutscenes play at like 5 fps.
    (4) Finally get to control the character, and discover that's about how fast the graphics work in general.
    (5) Log off and never go back.
    I think the problem is your computer, not the game. :3

    Seriously though, what are you running on? Ffxiv 1.0 was horrible on most machines, 2.0 is much much easy on the hardware.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PolleDK View Post
    I can only speak for myself, but if they changed the graphics so it looked like FFXIV, I'd never come back. I'm quite certain it makes no difference either way.
    Maybe to you.

    But there must be a reason EA/Activision spend so much on graphic engine development.

    Same goes for FFXIV if we fast forward 10 years and launch it without changing anything. Seriously, what's you're point here?
    My point was graphics matter. There is a reason SE developed FFXIV. They are well aware that FFXI is dated and won't be able to bring in all that many new players, in addition it will get harder and harder to retain subs against newer prettier MMOs.

    There's an English idiom that goes: "Don't judge the book by its cover", which seem to fit here nicely.
    You can quote as many idioms as you like. Human nature isn't going to change.

    Not to mention, for a great many people, the graphics factor significantly in their enjoyment of the game.

  17. #597
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    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    Maybe to you.

    But there must be a reason EA/Activision spend so much on graphic engine development.

    My point was graphics matter. There is a reason SE developed FFXIV. They are well aware that FFXI is dated and won't be able to bring in all that many new players, in addition it will get harder and harder to retain subs against newer prettier MMOs.
    Then how come none of all those pretty MMO's has managed to copy the success of WoW? Not saying graphics are totally irrelevant, just that, at least for an MMO, content and game play matters more.

    Besides, upgrading the graphics in a 10 year old game would be risky as hell. Just look at all the people whining every time Blizzard actually did improve things, 'cuz now they can't run the game quite as smoothly. Plus, you risk destroying the look and feel of the game.

    If they did a World of Warcraft II - then I'd expect much better graphics - but in a 10 year old game? Come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    You can quote as many idioms as you like. Human nature isn't going to change.
    Quite right. Still, the idiom holds true. What good is a game, if all it has is pretty graphics? People will flock to it like flies on a turd, but will quickly leave again when they find there's nothing to do. Some sort of trade of is required.

    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    Not to mention, for a great many people, the graphics factor significantly in their enjoyment of the game.
    I'm not denying that there aren't many people that value great graphics. However, WoW proves that there are even more who doesn't care (to a certain degree albeit).

  18. #598
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolleDK View Post
    Then how come none of all those pretty MMO's has managed to copy the success of WoW? Not saying graphics are totally irrelevant, just that, at least for an MMO, content and game play matters more.

    Besides, upgrading the graphics in a 10 year old game would be risky as hell. Just look at all the people whining every time Blizzard actually did improve things, 'cuz now they can't run the game quite as smoothly. Plus, you risk destroying the look and feel of the game.

    If they did a World of Warcraft II - then I'd expect much better graphics - but in a 10 year old game? Come on...
    Wasn't talking about MMOs in particular.

    EA has Frostbite. Ubisoft has Snowdrop. All graphical powerhouses that take millions to build.

    I'm not asking that Blizzard upgrade WoW's graphics. I just pointing out that it isn't working in it's favour. To be blunt, Blizzard should have had WoW2 in the pipeline by now to "take over".

    Quite right. Still, the idiom holds true. What good is a game, if all it has is pretty graphics? People will flock to it like flies on a turd, but will quickly leave again when they find there's nothing to do. Some sort of trade of is required.
    It doesn't hold true. That's what I'm trying to tell you.

    There is a reason people dress well for job interviews. First impressions matter!

    Also, you are making the incorrect assumption that "good graphics = bad gameplay".

    I'm not denying that there aren't many people that value great graphics. However, WoW proves that there are even more who doesn't care (to a certain degree albeit).
    The number is dropping though.

  19. #599
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    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    Wasn't talking about MMOs in particular.

    EA has Frostbite. Ubisoft has Snowdrop. All graphical powerhouses that take millions to build.
    Fair enough, was assuming we were talking about MMO's on MMO-Champion

    I like good graphics just as much as the next guy, I just value good game play higher - especially in MMO's. In let's say an FPS game, it's a completely different story. It's mostly point and shoot, I expect pretty graphics while I run around and shoot, but don't expect tons of game play if I'm honest with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    I'm not asking that Blizzard upgrade WoW's graphics. I just pointing out that it isn't working in it's favour. To be blunt, Blizzard should have had WoW2 in the pipeline by now to "take over".
    Well, isn't that rather obvious? Given it's age? Any game that old will have things working against it. Guess I'm just trying to say it's a moot point.

    WoW2 in the pipeline, maybe - but that's not really the Blizzard way is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    It doesn't hold true. That's what I'm trying to tell you.

    There is a reason people dress well for job interviews. First impressions matter!
    That's the entire point of the idiom. If you hire based on how well a person dresses, you run the risk of employing the wrong guy for the job, instead of the perfect guy, who didn't suit up.

    I have several times judge a person on first impressions, thinking "what an arse!". Then later on realized how wrong I was. First impressions are just that. First impressions. The point of the idiom is that you should not let first impressions decide for you.

    That might be the way the world works (sadly) - but it doesn't invalidate the idiom at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    Also, you are making the incorrect assumption that "good graphics = bad gameplay".
    No that was just an example of how great graphics doesn't necessarily equal a great game. Nor does bad graphics necessarily equal a bad game.

    And that's the point I'm trying to make with that idiom.

    The cover on a book might look like crap, and the story might be crap as well - but you won't know until you've read it. Might turn out to be the greatest book of all time - just with a crappy cover.

    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    The number is dropping though.
    Would you expect anything else, given it's age?

  20. #600
    Like it or not, there's probably a decent portion of the playerbase who play WoW because it's system demands are quite low. I was one of those players until quite recently. A massive overhaul could easily lose those players.

    Would an improved graphics engine entice more players than the potential losses? I don't have the answer, nobody here will, but it's something to consider.

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