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[Zathrendar]

It's possible but I'd like to see something a bit more solid on it. As I said, you could account for it through selective pressures alone, as opposed to "abuse" of arcane magic. Now, they were selected for proficiency in that as well, and you're right about Jaina, but beyond that it's fuzzy. It could explain the similar appearance of the draenei, with their pale blue skin and silver hair tones.

Fel definitely does have that sort of effect, though, seeming to make anything it touches either ruddier or greyer (e.g. BE/Eredar/fel orcs.)

[Destinas]

It's possible but I'd like to see something a bit more solid on it. As I said, you could account for it through selective pressures alone.

Well the magazine I mentioned to you is a solid source. It's the same issue and article where they mentioned that Night Elves descended from Dark Trolls, and Pygmies are related to Goblins. Since it was the official magazine, it's canon.

[Zathrendar]

The words you quoted were "pastier maybe". It doesn't really go very far to explain why that would be so. When I say solid, I mean something from the lore developers, as NPCs often have point of views that are fallible/incomplete.

[Traveler Voltin]

The words you quoted were "pastier maybe". It doesn't really go very far to explain why that would be so. When I say solid, I mean something from the lore developers, as NPCs often have point of views that are fallible/incomplete.

no offense but you sound like the person on the WoW forums who refuses to believe NE are mutated dark trolls even after being given sources that states they are.
the Warcraft magazine is canon.

[Zathrendar]

no offense but you sound like the person on the WoW forums who refuses to believe NE are mutated dark trolls even after being given sources that states they are.
the Warcraft magazine is canon.

Oh, I stated it wasn't?

Or did I state that it doesn't really go into much depth as to why the Highborne may be paler? It's a valid point that NPCs are often giving their interpretation of events and such within the setting. Some are closer to the truth than others, but it's an off the cuff statement by Brann, it does not really explain what the mechanism that may have made them paler was.

[Destinas]

The words you quoted were "pastier maybe". It doesn't really go very far to explain why that would be so. When I say solid, I mean something from the lore developers, as NPCs often have point of views that are fallible/incomplete.

Well it should be ntoed that, as well, the Highborne would eventually become the High/Blood Elves. They became lighter with human-like skin (and shorter) because they were cut off from the second Well of Eternity, and they weren't receiving the immortality-giving powers of Nordrassil. That stabilized when they made the Sunwell from a vial of the Well of Eternity. However, it should be noted that in one depiction, Dath'Remar turned lighter simply because the Sunwell was made. The Blood Elves became lighter after the Sunwell's destruction due to using fel energy and ripping out magic from arcane creatures, like manawyrms. Though some stayed the same skin tones as their High Elf cousins.

The Highborne of Shen'dralar were cut off from the second Well of Eternity on Hyjal, and they weren't receiving the gift of immortality from Nordrassil, since they were in Eldre'thalas (Dire Maul) since before the War of the Ancients. They stayed magically-inclined and maintained their longevity by taking magic from a demon inside the deepest part of the city. It would be safe to assume that it caused them the same pasty complexion as Blood Elves by doing the same thing.

As far as Brann, he is an exceptional character. Blizzard uses him as an all-knowing character. He's met almost every mythological and Titanic creature in Azeroth. He is simply used as the voice of Blizzard's lore, in cases like that. In some examples he gave sources, like Freya, Cenarius, etc. Since he mentioned it, it's canon. They wouldn't waste the time to mention it there anyway if it wasn't something slightly notable.

[Traveler Voltin]

Oh, I stated it wasn't?

Or did I state that it doesn't really go into much depth as to why the Highborne may be paler? It's a valid point that NPCs are often giving their interpretation of events and such within the setting. Some are closer to the truth than others, but it's an off the cuff statement by Brann, it does not really explain what the mechanism that may have made them paler was.

arcane magic being over used turns you paler.
Dark trolls> night elf>high elf. all because of some form of arcane magic.

[Zathrendar]

Well no, there is potential Old God influence in the case of the BE as well, which throws a spanner in the works. They're paler than the NE in the sense that their skin isn't dark blue, but their entire skin tone has a ruddier undertone to it, like humans'. Strictly speaking, they should look more "Highborne" than the Shen'dralar if it was purely due to them having the Sunwell at their beck and call. If anything, I'd expect the Highborne to become a pale, light blue, and not adopt the ruddier skin tone of the HE/BE.

As for the BE, both the ruddier and paler complexions are explained via fel. It causes the same divergence in other species, like the Eredar, where you get a red and shadowy variant.

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arcane magic being over used turns you paler.
Dark trolls> night elf>high elf. all because of some form of arcane magic.

Again, I'm at a loss as to how "pastier maybe" somehow confirms all the following. It's potentially true. However, the progression from dark trolls to night elves to high elves (or naga, where there's explicit Old God influence) isn't a straightforward one, and requires further elaboration by Blizzard in terms of a) the ways in which the arcane alters organisms consuming it and b) what selective pressures led to the HE to become the way they did, as I very much doubt it was the Sunwell alone.

[Destinas]

Well no, there is potential Old God influence in the case of the BE as well, which throws a spanner in the works. They're paler than the NE in the sense that their skin isn't dark blue, but their entire skin tone has a ruddier undertone to it, like humans'. Strictly speaking, they should look more "Highborne" than the Shen'dralar if it was purely due to them having the Sunwell at their beck and call. If anything, I'd expect the Highborne to become a pale, light blue, and not adopt the ruddier skin tone of the HE/BE.

As for the BE, both the ruddier and paler complexions are explained via fel. It causes the same divergence in other species, like the Eredar, where you get a red and shadowy variant.

There is no Old God influence for the Blood Elves. That is, if you're referring to the whispering they heard in Tirisfal. This was confirmed in Ask CDev.

Is there truly an Old God underneath the Tirisfal Glade?
Nope! There's something incredibly unsettling there, but it’s not an Old God. It isn't recommended to go digging through the Glades, though.

http://wowpedia.org/Ask_CDev

[Traveler Voltin]

Well no, there is potential Old God influence in the case of the BE as well, which throws a spanner in the works. They're paler than the NE in the sense that their skin isn't dark blue, but their entire skin tone has a ruddier undertone to it, like humans'. Strictly speaking, they should look more "Highborne" than the Shen'dralar if it was purely due to them having the Sunwell at their beck and call. If anything, I'd expect the Highborne to become a pale, light blue, and not adopt the ruddier skin tone of the HE/BE.

As for the BE, both the ruddier and paler complexions are explained via fel. It causes the same divergence in other species, like the Eredar, where you get a red and shadowy variant.

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Again, I'm at a loss as to how "pastier maybe" somehow confirms all the following. It's potentially true. However, the progression from dark trolls to night elves to high elves (or naga, where there's explicit Old God influence) isn't a straightforward one, and requires further elaboration by Blizzard in terms of a) the ways in which the arcane alters organisms consuming it and b) what selective pressures led to the HE to become the way they did, as I very much doubt it was the Sunwell alone.

sigh. exposer to arcane magic over thousands of years changes you.

[Zathrendar]

You can sigh all you wish. It's an incomplete story. The high elves are not "paler" than the night elves. The entire undertone of their skin is ruddier. If they were simply paler, they'd look no different to Highborne with silvery hair and pale blue skin. Blonde hair is not lighter than silver or white hair, and pale "pinkish" skin is not lighter than pale "purplish" skin. If you're arguing that the Sunwell alone, over time, changed them in that way, sure, it's possible, but merely an hypothesis at this point in time. So I would like Blizzard to come out and fill the gaps with more lore, rather than speculation based on off the cuff statements by NPCs.

Based on the effect the ley lines have on creatures in areas like Dragonblight, I'm inclined to agree it does push the appearance towards a purpler, paler look, but that is different from the high elves, who have altogether warmer skin and hair tones.

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There is no Old God influence for the Blood Elves. That is, if you're referring to the whispering they heard in Tirisfal. This was confirmed in Ask CDev.

http://wowpedia.org/Ask_CDev

Fair enough. Which leaves the question open as to what that thing is.

[Destinas]

You can sigh all you wish. It's an incomplete story. The high elves are not "paler" than the night elves. The entire undertone of their skin is ruddier. If they were simply paler, they'd look no different to Highborne with silvery hair and pale blue skin. Blonde hair is not lighter than silver or white hair, and pale "pinkish" skin is not lighter than pale "purplish" skin. If you're arguing that the Sunwell alone, over time, changed them in that way, sure, it's possible, but merely an hypothesis at this point in time. So I would like Blizzard to come out and fill the gaps with more lore, rather than speculation based on off the cuff statements by NPCs.

Based on the effect the ley lines have on creatures in areas like Dragonblight, I'm inclined to agree it does push the appearance towards a purpler, paler look, but that is different from the high elves, who have altogether warmer skin and hair tones.

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Fair enough. Which leaves the question open as to what that thing is.

Well it wasn't the Sunwell that changed them in most accounts. As said, in one depiction Dath'Remar Sunstrider changed immediately. In most other accounts, it's stated they changed in a short amount of time after being in the Eastern Kingdoms, since they were cut off from Nordrassil, and the second Well of Eternity under it.

It should be noted that, behind the scenes, High Elves were created first. They were simply "elves" back then, and Night Elves were an afterthought. They linked the two together without really thinking on how to explain how violet skin can change to a peach skin. As far as hair, High Elves are mostly depicted with white or blonde hair, however they can have blue/purple hair as well - they even had a range of eye colors from blue, purple, and green. Blood Elves can have red hair, but that may be dye. High Elves don't like to associate themselves with Blood Elves, even in the color of their hair and clothes.

It should be noted that it wasn't impossible for Night Elves/Highborne to have red hair. Dath'Remar did, but he was a very rare case. However, he was the first king of Quel'thalas, and his genes would certainly be passed down through the family line. Many High/Blood elves may dye their hair to be like him (since it wasn't uncommon for Highborne to do so 10,000 years ago), or it could possibly be that their hair simply changed color when they became shorter/more human. It should also be noted that Blood Elf death knights can have blue/white hair. Those death knights would mostly be High Elves that were killed when Arthas went through Quel'thalas. Since even living High Elves can have blue hair, it would make sense if the hair colors were passed down from Night Elves, but slightly altered due to their location away from the powers of Nordrassil.

[Zathrendar]

That is my point. It isn't a well explained process. It's a tacked on theory on how they changed, since NE are, like you say, an afterthought. The fact that their height changed, even though they continued to draw on immense amounts of arcane energies (which have never been portrayed as having the power to shrink through their consumption, quite the opposite) compared to their NE brethren suggest something else was at play.

With fel, the effects are well understood in terms of changing skin and hair colour, eyes and even size, tending towards larger, more muscular builds. The psychological effects are also clear, with it increasing the propensity to aggression. I would speculate this is an extreme version of what the arcane does, due to the admixture of demonic influences.

Previously it was stated that fel is attributable for their ruddier complexions and red hair. However, the sorceresses in WC3 had brown hair, which I assume was natural, so it's possible red hair too is natural to them even before fel. Fel does make sense though.

I'm willing to go with the Highborne being paler and silver-haired on the whole due to the arcane, as it makes sense, but when it comes to the HE/BE, it requires further explanation, else it is just player speculation, including my own.

[Destinas]

That is my point. It isn't a well explained process. It's a tacked on theory on how they changed, since NE are, like you say, an afterthought. The fact that their height changed, even though they continued to draw on immense amounts of arcane energies (which have never been portrayed as having the power to shrink through their consumption, quite the opposite) compared to their NE brethren suggest something else was at play.

With fel, the effects are well understood in terms of changing skin and hair colour, eyes and even size, tending towards larger, more muscular builds. The psychological effects are also clear, with it increasing the propensity to aggression. I would speculate this is an extreme version of what the arcane does, due to the admixture of demonic influences.

Previously it was stated that fel is attributable for their ruddier complexions and red hair. However, the sorceresses in WC3 had brown hair, which I assume was natural, so it's possible red hair too is natural to them even before fel. Fel does make sense though.

I'm willing to go with the Highborne being paler and silver-haired on the whole due to the arcane, as it makes sense, but when it comes to the HE/BE, it requires further explanation, else it is just player speculation, including my own.

Fel energy tends to make people weaker at first, then stronger in larger amounts of intake. For instance, take a look at Gul'dan compared to the other Warlords, then compared to the Fel Orcs. Same with Blood Elves, however their bright red hair may just be dye - they are mostly physically the same as High Elves with slightly lighter skin and fel green eyes. The red hair fits their motif of "blood" - such as the national color being changed to red. High Elves can have blue hair, but they don't often use red hair on their models in-game, since in lore High Elves don't want to be associated with Blood Elves. High Elves stay as far away from red and gold as possible, now using blue and silver in their motifs.

It would be marginally the same for the Highborne of Eldre'thalas, since they were siphoning the essence form a demon inside Dire Maul for thousands of years. They would be similar to Blood Elves in the fact that they would be slightly paler from fel energy, and using magic for their every day lives. However, they didn't get as much fel energy as the Blood Elves had because it wasn't as large of a concentration. They were both in the same boat, since neither had access to the Well of Eternity. Highborne made due with one demon and pylons made of magic, and Blood Elves were draining magic from wherever they could so they wouldn't devolve into Wretched. Before that, the Sunwell was a very small concentration of the Well of Eternity that fit into one vial. Since the Well of Eternity was pure liquified arcane essence, it would do well to help them maintain their magical lifestyles, but in such a small concentration it wouldn't help them stay as they were before. The biggest contributor is Nordrassil, as well, which helped the Night Elves stay as they are as long as they were near it. However, that doesn't help explain the Highborne staying Kaldorei, in that sense.

However, I do agree with you. The explanation isn't very good from Blizzard's end. However, it is canon that arcane magic and ley lines do alter the appearance of mortals, and fel energy heightens that effect.

[cptaylor38]

You can sigh all you wish. It's an incomplete story. The high elves are not "paler" than the night elves. The entire undertone of their skin is ruddier. If they were simply paler, they'd look no different to Highborne with silvery hair and pale blue skin. Blonde hair is not lighter than silver or white hair, and pale "pinkish" skin is not lighter than pale "purplish" skin. If you're arguing that the Sunwell alone, over time, changed them in that way, sure, it's possible, but merely an hypothesis at this point in time. So I would like Blizzard to come out and fill the gaps with more lore, rather than speculation based on off the cuff statements by NPCs.

Based on the effect the ley lines have on creatures in areas like Dragonblight, I'm inclined to agree it does push the appearance towards a purpler, paler look, but that is different from the high elves, who have altogether warmer skin and hair tones.

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Fair enough. Which leaves the question open as to what that thing is.

Well given the proximity to Undercity I'm assuming something having to do with a mass production of more undead by Sylvannas. But that quote might have been made before her new agenda. Other possibilities would be somekind of Naga stronghold or possibly a Nathrezim base.

Literally nothing else I can think of that isn't Old God or Old God related.

[Zathrendar]

Well given the proximity to Undercity I'm assuming something having to do with a mass production of more undead by Sylvannas. But that quote might have been made before her new agenda. Other possibilities would be somekind of Naga stronghold or possibly a Nathrezim base.

Literally nothing else I can think of that isn't Old God or Old God related.

Yeah. Just because it isn't an Old God doesn't mean it can't be something related to them, but the Nathrezim is a good catch, it may be related to the Legion in some way or other. With respect to the undead, I doubt it, the whispers predate Sylvanas.

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Fel energy tends to make people weaker at first, then stronger in larger amounts of intake. For instance, take a look at Gul'dan compared to the other Warlords, then compared to the Fel Orcs. Same with Blood Elves, however their bright red hair may just be dye - they are mostly physically the same as High Elves with slightly lighter skin and fel green eyes.

Yes, fel has a transformative element to it. Whether it makes one weaker at first or not I don't know, Gul'dan is just one warlock in the grand scheme of things; it may do that but I'm more interested in its ultimate effect. The blood elves are/were still pretty early in that transformative phase, barring the felbloods who sped things up a bit by consuming demonic energies directly from terrorguards.

Really, I'd like them to clear up the arcane, its relation to fel and Nether energies more generally and their transformative effects. I think you picked up on what I consider to be inconsistencies in the whole story with regard to the "shrinking" (as troll descendents, they were large with or without the Well or Nordrassil) and the different effects the Shen'dralar have experienced. I am sure they'll clear it all up at some point and reveal whether there's some other agent acting on the high elves' evolution.

[Wildmoon]

Pale skin is not the special trait of highborne. As I said before Varo'then proves this. Azshara had deep purple skin. Also Illidan who involved himself heavily in arcane art had purple skin. He was not a highborne though. HB was just a social status. Physical appearance varies among them.

Also, NE transformation to HE didn't happen because of arcane. It was because they were cut off from life-giving Well of Eternity. They basically grew weaker.

[Zathrendar]

It was a bit more than a social status - they engaged in selective breeding, that resulted in increasing levels of proficiency in the arcane. Honestly, I'm split on whether they would have a unique appearance to them, but Azshara is silver-haired, and purple skin isn't out of line with the sort of colorations the arcane tends to result in.

[Destinas]

Yeah. Just because it isn't an Old God doesn't mean it can't be something related to them, but the Nathrezim is a good catch, it may be related to the Legion in some way or other. With respect to the undead, I doubt it, the whispers predate Sylvanas.

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Yes, fel has a transformative element to it. Whether it makes one weaker at first or not I don't know, Gul'dan is just one warlock in the grand scheme of things; it may do that but I'm more interested in its ultimate effect. The blood elves are/were still pretty early in that transformative phase, barring the felbloods who sped things up a bit by consuming demonic energies directly from terrorguards.

Really, I'd like them to clear up the arcane, its relation to fel and Nether energies more generally and their transformative effects. I think you picked up on what I consider to be inconsistencies in the whole story with regard to the "shrinking" (as troll descendents, they were large with or without the Well or Nordrassil) and the different effects the Shen'dralar have experienced. I am sure they'll clear it all up at some point and reveal whether there's some other agent acting on the high elves' evolution.

I was using Gul'dan as just one example. Felblood Elves and Fel Orcs are basically the full-on demon forms of those races. Until then they're just paler and weaker than their counterparts.

As far as transforming, Trolls and Elves all change based on magic or location. All the different troll races are different heights, have different muscle sizes, and skin tones. Night Elves came from Dark Trolls - we haven't seen those in WoW, but there was concept art of them in Cata. They could have been about the same height. However, they transformed originally by either Elune, the Well of Eternity, or both. I'm guessing both, since without the Well, they didn't change back into Trolls, but still changed into another race. They also look like Cenarius' upper half, and he is the direct son of Elune. However, all those races are capable of transforming completely based on many factors.

The real deciding factor to explain everything will be Elune, who we don't have much true evidence on. Everything else is explained by "magic".

As far as fel energy, the Legion is drawn to places that use arcane energy in high concentrations, thus their communication with the Highborne and Eredar. Arcane energy seems to be the purest form of energy in the twisting nether. Fel energy seems to be just a "dark" version of that. Both types of magic are used by demons, and are easy for mages to learn. Necromancy falls under this category, being derived from fel energy originally.

[Zathrendar]

Yeah I agree on most of that, it is consistent with what I've gleaned from the lore thus far, however I'm still not sure that there is anything to suggest that fel would make one weaker than their counterparts who don't use it. Green orcs are no weaker than brown orcs, to my knowledge. And again, fel is described as both increasing ruddiness and palour, so it has one or the other effect, not just the latter.

Elune may be the wildcard here.

Also, NE transformation to HE didn't happen because of arcane. It was because they were cut off from life-giving Well of Eternity. They basically grew weaker.

Possibly but then this should've occurred to the Shen'dralar as well as any other elves cut off from the Well, and does not explain why they would diminish in size, when the starting point was dark trolls, who would not have been enlarged much by the Well in the first place.