DPS Balance - Are Locks too OP?

[roahn the warlock]

I dont know about you people, but I never complain when a class is "Too op" in PVE, hey raid, want 50k less dps?

[Dole4011]

The bulk of the explanation is that locks are OP. He may be better than the rest of your dps, but it's not as simple as he's amazing and they all suck and aren't pulling their weight.

[Natiry427]

Yes they are op: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...Orgrimmar/dps/

And to everyone giving the caveat abouit single target, how many single target fights are there in heroic SoO? Like, 2?

[announced]

warlocks may be powerful but so are other classes when played properly. i raid with 3 hunters, a balance druid, and sometimes a mage. im usually tied with the hunters or just above/below them. sometimes our boomkin tops dps on multidot fights, sometimes its one of our hunters. it all depends on the movement required/ whether u can multidot constantly or different factors in a fight.

a lot of the logs posted in the top are skewed, they tailor the fight so locks dont have to do anything but try and achieve a record dps lol. if u checkout the activity log most will be given special treatment/buffs/tricks/ etc

[Octa]

The bulk of the explanation is that locks are OP. He may be better than the rest of your dps, but it's not as simple as he's amazing and they all suck and aren't pulling their weight.

It kinda is though. With the information given, when he's saying that on single target fights (Jugg) he lock is MINIMUM 75-100k above the rest of the raid. That's not how big the gap is if the other classes are performing even CLOSE to as well as the lock is. I mean, MAYBE there's something that we're not getting here like The warlock has 100% uptime on tricks or that his weapons and trinkets are 30 ilvl ahead of everyone elses but the they all have HWF "off pieces" or something like that. Those seem like things any decent raid leader would know and would suggest (unless he is baiting an answer, which I have a feeling MAY be the case as well). But saying

...and single target fights like Jugger, he is on top by atleast 75 / 100k DPS, and often ends up doing 1/3rd more total dmg than the guy at number 2.

just screams it's much more of a player issue than it is a "locks are OP" issue.

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Yes they are op: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...Orgrimmar/dps/

And to everyone giving the caveat abouit single target, how many single target fights are there in heroic SoO? Like, 2?

The number of single target fights really isn't the point though. He is saying that his warlock is utterly DESTROYING the other DPS in the raid on single target fights. That, to me, says that this is a fundamental playstyle/knowing your class issue.

[Beace]

a lot of the logs posted in the top are skewed, they tailor the fight so locks dont have to do anything but try and achieve a record dps lol. if u checkout the activity log most will be given special treatment/buffs/tricks/ etc

And you think only locks are doing that? Every top rank from every single class is done with various tricks to maximize their dps. It just so happens warlocks are #1 at that. It also just happens that warlocks are also #1 on average (http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_...14/30/default/).

I don't mean to be rude, but if your personal experience is different, that's based on a difference in gear or skill level in your guild.

[Raiju]

I was trying to show that destruction warlocks (The majority of warlocks play destruction) are not op in terms of dps in 25H and they are not. I'm not being delusional warlocks passive survivability is OP affliction is OP utility (verses our competing slots mage/priest) is OP but destruction is not. A large reason why warlocks are op is because a lot switch (but not all) between affliction for its strong fights then destruction for its strong fights so (although affliction is actually the best spec, does most damage to the boss, for every boss as paragon has shown) it's usually a warlock ontop.

Taking this and referring to your earlier comment towards me -

If a spec is top for ALL fights, has NO weak point in their dps arsenal - yes they are OP. Every other class has weaknesses in their dps, why are warlocks immune? This is even ignoring the ridiculous raid utility they had this expansion.

@All the warlocks justifying about how it will be next expansion - while I am fairly confident warlocks won't be top in 6.0, it won't be because of lack of snapshotting or any such thing. It is because blizzard will intentionally be making sure warlocks aren't the go-to class for all raiders with 4 tiers in a row being warlock dominated.

And yes, warlocks having 2 specs to allow them to cover any perceived weakness IS the problem. It is not fair that one class can cheese their way to being considered mandatory by most guilds, because its simply unhealthy for the game and the playerbase in the age of bring the player not the class.

[Durantye]

Hi

As the titles suggests, i'm interested in hearing your opinions on locks in their current state. More specifically destruction and affliction, as demo seems somewhat redundant compared to them atm.

Now my interest is not out of a burning hatred for the class, or jelly rage, but as a GM who was asked by our no1 DPS - a destruction warlock - just why I thought he was so far ahead of everyone else.

For me it is quite a strange one to answer. I don't want to tell everyone they are under performing and I don't want to feed his ego. What I am looking for is other raiders experience with warlocks in SoO, more exactly in Heroic modes.

To elaborate, it is almost a guarantee that on multi-target fights such as Galakras, and single target fights like Jugger, he is on top by atleast 75 / 100k DPS, and often ends up doing 1/3rd more total dmg than the guy at number 2. We typically have a Fire mage, WW monk, Unholy DK, Frost Mage, Survive Hunter. All pull at least an average 300k minimum, but the lock sits at atleast 450k, depending on the enocounter. The pack before Nazgrim saw some of the sickest AOE I have witnessed with him reaching around 2.5 mill dps.

For me this is quite a drastic gap. All the others DPS use addons such as ForteXorcist to track buffs, and try their best to optimize output, but it is seemingly impossible to get near the lock. I am quite puzzled as all of these are experienced guys that have been playing for years.

For me, it screams an imbalance, and also a stat weight issue. Mastery seems to be incredibly strong for locks, to the point where all our other DPS (no2 Fire Mage with huge crit etc) seem to be at a huge disadvantage. Even the Frost Mage who can get away with stacking Mastery is nowhere near this guy.

Sorry for the wall, I am as curious as the lock asking my why he was so far ahead. What have you seen in SoO HC?

Well Yes we are broken as fuck at the moment, but on Iron Jug he sits that much higher than everyone else? Your warlock shouldn't be out performing by that much on iron jug especially not with a survival hunter who can do some sick single target. On Galakras expect to see your destro miles ahead, they aren't as badly affected by down time as other classes and their shadowburns combined with havoc make a destro warlock a god send for that fight. Though he should be ahead on almost every fight, 75-100k is telling me your other players aren't very good. On protectors your windwalker, fire mage, unholy, and even your frost mage should be riding his nuts on that fight.

Juggernaut he potentially could be your top damage dealer depending on rng for opener and execution (assuming you get moderately fast kill times) but the hunter should beat him on that fight every now and then, and should never be 75-100k below.

But yes at the moment warlocks are broken, no necessarily needing damage tuned but havoc, shadowburn, soul swap, are 3 of the most powerful abilties in the game hands down and need to be worked with.

Expect affliction to fall behind significantly with snap shotting being taken away, destro though is barely affected by this.

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Taking this and referring to your earlier comment towards me -

If a spec is top for ALL fights, has NO weak point in their dps arsenal - yes they are OP. Every other class has weaknesses in their dps, why are warlocks immune? This is even ignoring the ridiculous raid utility they had this expansion.

@All the warlocks justifying about how it will be next expansion - while I am fairly confident warlocks won't be top in 6.0, it won't be because of lack of snapshotting or any such thing. It is because blizzard will intentionally be making sure warlocks aren't the go-to class for all raiders with 4 tiers in a row being warlock dominated.

And yes, warlocks having 2 specs to allow them to cover any perceived weakness IS the problem. It is not fair that one class can cheese their way to being considered mandatory by most guilds, because its simply unhealthy for the game and the playerbase in the age of bring the player not the class.

Losing snap shotting won't affect affliction that much?? Are you kidding me? Like do you even know the very basics of affliction? They are so insanely broken due to being able to keep practically maxed dots ticking WITH 40% damage buff on most targets for over a minute. Losing snapshotting basically means affliction goes back to how it was in ToT only a little worse.

Destro will be either just plain nerfed or reworked in their talents their numbers aren't the problem it is their ability to use their spells to gain insane amounts of damage for short periods of time (shadowburn cleaving).

Having 2 specs to cover weakness isn't the problem, mages have that, multi-target (fire), single target (arcane), noob players (frost). Essentially it is the fact affliction was overtuned, and destruction was in a good spot in ToT but because no one used it after getting the UVLS they took that as "Oh it must suck" and they buffed it insanely without regard for its insane scaling and of course shadowburn, oh and don't forget the retardedly over powered change to fire and brimstone.

[Raiju]

Losing snap shotting won't affect affliction that much?? Are you kidding me? Like do you even know the very basics of affliction? They are so insanely broken due to being able to keep practically maxed dots ticking WITH 40% damage buff on most targets for over a minute. Losing snapshotting basically means affliction goes back to how it was in ToT only a little worse.

I NEVER SAID THOSE WORDS. Fucking warlocks are a plague on these forums I swear. You think blizzard is so incompetent they don't realize different specs react different to snapshotting changes and will need different changes? No ofcourse not. WHAT I AM SAYING IF YOU COULD GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR CLASS BIAS IS THAT THEY WILL INTENTIONALLY PUT WARLOCKS NOT-TOP TO AVOID THIS EXPANSIONS PERCEPTION OF OP-NESS.

Please tell me that got through, otherwise I don't know what to say. Try not reading things which aren't there.

And no, other classes do not have it as warlocks have it - because destro covers so many bases by itself affli covering the rest makes them near immune to the majority of mechanics. Try playing them sometime.

[Durantye]

I NEVER SAID THOSE WORDS. Fucking warlocks are a plague on these forums I swear. You think blizzard is so incompetent they don't realize different specs react different to snapshotting changes and will need different changes? No ofcourse not. WHAT I AM SAYING IF YOU COULD GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR CLASS BIAS IS THAT THEY WILL INTENTIONALLY PUT WARLOCKS NOT-TOP TO AVOID THIS EXPANSIONS PERCEPTION OF OP-NESS.

Please tell me that got through, otherwise I don't know what to say. Try not reading things which aren't there.

And no, other classes do not have it as warlocks have it - because destro covers so many bases by itself affli covering the rest makes them near immune to the majority of mechanics. Try playing them sometime.

I have 3 toons over 570 one of which is a mage and they definitely cover all the bases, Affliction will be just like shadowpriest next FROM LOSING SNAP SHOTTING. If anything affliction will be very near the bottom without snap shotting next tier just like s priest they will perform horrendous single target. Destro performs AOE atm (which is supposed to be demo's job) because of EVERYTHING I FUCKING MENTIONED.

Blizzard understands how snap shotting affects classes? Do I NEED to link how affliction is at 1.3m dps on protectors atm and 2nd place is like 600k??? Obviously they aren't entirely aware of how it works or that wouldn't have happened.

The only warlock spec that will need changes in WoD is Destro and it likely will just require an ICD to the ember regen from shadowburn and making it no longer affected by havoc.

[Teebone]

I don't get why people complain about "OP'd" PvE dps. Things die faster. Everyone gets loot. If your guild is making you compete, that's a problem with your guild. It's not like THEIR dps is harming YOU in any way, in fact I would wager you benefit from it.

[Durantye]

I don't get why people complain about "OP'd" PvE dps. Things die faster. Everyone gets loot. If your guild is making you compete, that's a problem with your guild. It's not like THEIR dps is harming YOU in any way, in fact I would wager you benefit from it.

Well it gets kinda depressing when you literally can never beat someone in DPS cause blizzard favors their class, makes raids stack more of them and leaves less and less spots open for other classes. The way warlocks are at the moment a guild without one is shooting themselves in the foot, and that isn't fair to other classes, but it isn't like high-end warlocks have this luxurious life most of the time either, because warlock spots are highly competitive in high-end guilds because of the vast difference between an 'average' warlock and a 'good' warlock.

[Deleted]

I don't get why people complain about "OP'd" PvE dps. Things die faster. Everyone gets loot. If your guild is making you compete, that's a problem with your guild. It's not like THEIR dps is harming YOU in any way, in fact I would wager you benefit from it.

If a class is so good that a guild might want you to reroll or replace you with a person playing that class, it can "harm" you quite significantly, because if there's a class that does so much more dps than other classes, why only have one, or two, or three...

[Teebone]

Well it gets kinda depressing when you literally can never beat someone in DPS cause blizzard favors their class, makes raids stack more of them and leaves less and less spots open for other classes. The way warlocks are at the moment a guild without one is shooting themselves in the foot, and that isn't fair to other classes, but it isn't like high-end warlocks have this luxurious life most of the time either, because warlock spots are highly competitive in high-end guilds because of the vast difference between an 'average' warlock and a 'good' warlock.

Please, spare me this whole 'Blizzard loves this class' crap. If you don't like it, roll one. If not, improve to the best you can. Or better yet, instead of getting depressed about TRY TO HAVE SOME GOD DAMNED FUN!!

You know... FUN?? Cause this is supposed to be a GAME?? Not a JOB???

And when you say less and less spots... *cough*horseshit!*cough* Who? Your guild? Where? What? Alts? And what kind of luxurious life are we talking about here? I'm always broke... do Warlocks have a fleet of Grand Yaks? And how is a guild shooting themselves in the foot for not having a warlock? Because you are a warlock?

Here's what I see, something similar happened to me:

You have an alt you'd rather play. Your guild wants you on your lock. but you are BORED with your lock. You'd have more fun on your monk. They don't give a shit. I mean, the dps difference between your toons is probably less than 20k, but they don't care... no, it's lock lock summon late-for-raid-gotta-be-carried-lazy fucks gimmie some fucking lock cookies goodnight. Am I close?

And if I guessed right... have you tried talking to your guild instead of I dunno, calling for a blanket nerf on a class someone else might like to play (like my wife for example..)

[klogaroth]

I have 3 toons over 570 one of which is a mage and they definitely cover all the bases, Affliction will be just like shadowpriest next FROM LOSING SNAP SHOTTING. If anything affliction will be very near the bottom without snap shotting next tier just like s priest they will perform horrendous single target. Destro performs AOE atm (which is supposed to be demo's job) because of EVERYTHING I FUCKING MENTIONED.

Blizzard understands how snap shotting affects classes? Do I NEED to link how affliction is at 1.3m dps on protectors atm and 2nd place is like 600k??? Obviously they aren't entirely aware of how it works or that wouldn't have happened.

The only warlock spec that will need changes in WoD is Destro and it likely will just require an ICD to the ember regen from shadowburn and making it no longer affected by havoc.

You are assuming too much to say that affliction will have to be at the bottom on single target.

We don't even know what our damage breakdown is going to look like yet, never mind what our DPS is going to be tuned to.

The amount of damage derived from haunt or from drain soul may well end up changing. Soul swap might end up being reworked again. We don't even know what all our talents and spells are going to be yet.

[Deleted]

Why be so argumentative?

[Teebone]

If a class is so good that a guild might want you to reroll or replace you with a person playing that class, it can "harm" you quite significantly, because if there's a class that does so much more dps than other classes, why only have one, or two, or three...

That's the price you pay for being competitive. If you can't pay it, DON'T PLAY IT. I dumped that lifestyle in WoW years ago, and could never be happier. And FYI, that shit is between YOU.. and YOUR GUILD. Not everyone else. Do you not see whining about how 'OP'ed' a class is as silly now?

Good grief I feel like this isn't a warlock thread but a guild therapy thread.

[Puuhis]

You also have to keep in mind that heroic guilds have bosses on farm now and their kill times are extremely short which very heavily favors affliction. Affliction wasn't even that strong during progression and it relies VERY heavily on a high ilvl BBoY(which you couldn't even get during progress). Destro is pretty fine on ST, their AoE cheesing(unnecessary damage) just brings them very high on the meters. Affliction is currently extremely broken on multidot fights, but luckily those bosses are all much earlier in the tier and not a that big of a problem.

The current problem with warlocks comes mainly from two things: soulswap/BBoY and the stat priority of all the three specs. I think it's completely fine for a pure dps class to have strong specs for each fight, mages, hunters and rogues should just have similar kit as well. If affliction and Destro had very different stat priorities, warlocks would instantly become a lot weaker overall.

[Durantye]

Please, spare me this whole 'Blizzard loves this class' crap. If you don't like it, roll one. If not, improve to the best you can. Or better yet, instead of getting depressed about TRY TO HAVE SOME GOD DAMNED FUN!!

You know... FUN?? Cause this is supposed to be a GAME?? Not a JOB???

And when you say less and less spots... *cough*horseshit!*cough* Who? Your guild? Where? What? Alts? And what kind of luxurious life are we talking about here? I'm always broke... do Warlocks have a fleet of Grand Yaks? And how is a guild shooting themselves in the foot for not having a warlock? Because you are a warlock?

Here's what I see, something similar happened to me:

You have an alt you'd rather play. Your guild wants you on your lock. but you are BORED with your lock. You'd have more fun on your monk. They don't give a shit. I mean, the dps difference between your toons is probably less than 20k, but they don't care... no, it's lock lock summon late-for-raid-gotta-be-carried-lazy fucks gimmie some fucking lock cookies goodnight. Am I close?

And if I guessed right... have you tried talking to your guild instead of I dunno, calling for a blanket nerf on a class someone else might like to play (like my wife for example..)

I play my warlock because I like my warlock, love the way it plays, love the lore behind it, I've played it as my main for almost 5 years now. The dps difference is less than 20k? Have you even looked at raid bots? Affliction 1.4m on protectors for the average top 100, the 2nd place? Arcane mage at 780k, they literally double the dps. I love my warlock but I'm realistic we need a nerf, not a huge one we just need a couple things to keep our shadow burn in place, if they do that we'll be fine.

Guilds are shooting themselves in foot because they will lack, Healthstones, Gateways, and a class so broken they literally double the 2nd places dps in some fights as affliction, and are generally a significant amount ahead in other specs.

I don't want to play another class but I'm realistic, we need to be nerfed.

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You are assuming too much to say that affliction will have to be at the bottom on single target.

We don't even know what our damage breakdown is going to look like yet, never mind what our DPS is going to be tuned to.

The amount of damage derived from haunt or from drain soul may well end up changing. Soul swap might end up being reworked again. We don't even know what all our talents and spells are going to be yet.

Assuming the tuning stays similar to what it is now, Affliction is going to be horrendous single target which I assume is what they are going to aim for the way they refuse to boost shadow priest single target. If it wasn't for fights being extremely short affliction doesn't do very well on single target as it is. It would be foolish for blizzard to ignore their own design aim on a class that was as broken as affliction with the way they speak of other classes on single target (ele shaman, s priest, possibly fire.)

[klogaroth]

Even if affliction is horrendous on single target we have two other specs. I think we'll manage. There don't tend to be many purely single target fights, especially important ones. Plus the definition of horrendous is somewhat different compared to what it used to be.