Lock and Load vs Kill Shot

[Azortharion]

Glurp is right in that nobody can prove that either way is better, and even logic would have a hard time arguing for either option, that's why we both say it doesn't matter. The chance of losing a Kill Shot over the fight duration by prioritizing LnL-ES is the same as the chance of losing an Explosive Shot by prioritizing Kill Shot when that is off cooldown, a few things speak for LnL-ES > KS though:

1) It's easier to press one button than switch to another.
2) It will usually do more damage right away, if your trinkets proc, LnL-ES definitely takes prio.

With that said I can't prove/argue that someone prioritizing KS is losing DPS/necessarily doing it wrong.

[Deleted]

With that said I can't prove/argue that someone prioritizing KS is losing DPS/necessarily doing it wrong.

Which leads too...

It doesn't matter what you do.

It really doesn't matter, use whatever you want.

[Azortharion]

OT: Ran both rotations on Femaledwarf with a Hunter from Method and according to it Kill Shot gives +55 more DPS which causes a 0.01% DPS increase.

The Mystery is solved.

Lol'd.

You're wrong in so many ways I don't know where to start.

1) FemaleDwarf across 1 iteration? Wow, so scientific.
2) "Oh let's do the rotation on a hunter from Method, it must be more scientific this way".
3) +55 DPS? Are you joking? 1 iteration? 55 DPS? Mystery solved?
4) Just because someone can't be proved or argued for does not mean that your useless FemaleDwarf sim on some random dude solves a kind of mystery, especially when you don't present any decent knowledge of why this is the case otherwise.
5) FemaleDwarf. 1 iteration.

Perfect example of how one average joe can spread misinformation by using a tool that is only as good as the person using it incorrectly (not that the tool is even viable for doing this job. I repeat, 1 iteration).

Come back when you can actually 1) present facts and 2) argue your point of view instead of letting a useless simulator speak for you. >_>

Anyone listening to this guy..? Don't.

[Glurp]

He is a well known smart ass on the hunters forums, allthough luckily he isn't that active here anymore as he used to be. Just don't get baited into responding to his posts. He's up to no good.

Sorry in future I will be sure to just give my own opinion when a fact was asked for, because presenting your own opinion as fact is the normal thing to do on these forums. Sure I could have worded my post differently but if I did then the thread would have gone on for another 3 pages of people posting crap and ignoring all the perfectly fine answers on the first page, as is the usual for the Hunter forums. My plan was fine until Fincher came along though, RIP this thread.

[Nnug]

Lol'd.

You're wrong in so many ways I don't know where to start.

1) FemaleDwarf across 1 iteration? Wow, so scientific.
2) "Oh let's do the rotation on a hunter from Method, it must be more scientific this way".
3) +55 DPS? Are you joking? 1 iteration? 55 DPS? Mystery solved?
4) Just because someone can't be proved or argued for does not mean that your useless FemaleDwarf sim on some random dude solves a kind of mystery, especially when you don't present any decent knowledge of why this is the case otherwise.
5) FemaleDwarf. 1 iteration.

Perfect example of how one average joe can spread misinformation by using a tool that is only as good as the person using it incorrectly (not that the tool is even viable for doing this job. I repeat, 1 iteration).

Come back when you can actually 1) present facts and 2) argue your point of view instead of letting a useless simulator speak for you. >_>

Anyone listening to this guy..? Don't.

Almost certainly a joke.

[Illana]

entirely depends on your gear, with some gear combinations, kill shot may do more damage than explosive per global but the difference is so small that it's probably not worth thinking about.

[Beace]

One explosive shot does more damage than one kill shot on average. If both are free, then the obvious answer is to use Explosive shot. If LnL is not up, the zero cost + CD of kill shot makes it take priority over the cost + potential reset of ES.

This statement caused me to take a closer look at my logs. Whole raid this week, my average KS hit for 180k and average ES 215k (not counting crits, which show a similar ratio). Difference is a bit bigger than I expected, but of course it's not quite as simple as that considering shot shifting, charges, cooldowns, etc. In any case I think your reasoning is sound, regarding ES being better when it's free, and KS being better when it's not.

(Source: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...4false%2453301)

[Glurp]

This statement caused me to take a closer look at my logs. Whole raid this week, my average KS hit for 180k and average ES 215k (not counting crits, which show a similar ratio). Difference is a bit bigger than I expected, but of course it's not quite as simple as that considering shot shifting, charges, cooldowns, etc. In any case I think your reasoning is sound, regarding ES being better when it's free, and KS being better when it's not.

(Source: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...4false%2453301)

Looking at average ES damage in logs simply doesn't work because of how the damage rolls into the next one when fired back to back. You simply cannot value the damage of a DoT based on average ticks, especially not one which rolls damage when clipped. Feel free to pick a fight in that log you linked then look at the damage graph for Explosive shot and notice how it just constantly goes up and down then compare it to Kill Shot where you just see sudden spikes in when it is used.

For the sake of having some half meaningful data I ran this overnight:

0.05% increase to use KS over LnL procs. It could easily go in the other direction if you were a different race, had slightly different gear equipped, different fight length or used a slightly different priority list than I do.

Original statement still stands. It doesn't matter.

[Deleted]

0.05% increase to use KS over LnL procs. It could easily go in the other direction if you were a different race, had slightly different gear equipped, different fight length or used a slightly different priority list than I do.

As well as within the margin of error.

[Deleted]

One explosive shot does more damage than one kill shot on average. If both are free, then the obvious answer is to use Explosive shot. If LnL is not up, the zero cost + CD of kill shot makes it take priority over the cost + potential reset of ES.

Sounds really impressive, but complete fiction of course.

[Glurp]

Assumed that by picking the Hunter with ~~best gear in the non-Asian world the difference between shot prioritization would show best due to scaling. If you got a better Idea then sim it with more accurately then by all means go for it and show us.

It's called a BiS list buddy, and it is simmed.

This is what was said before. No reasons or explanation was given whatsoever of why or how any of these opinions came to be. So in the context that such posts had been made it is questionable of why my post in particular received so much obloquy from you.

The reasoning is actually a few posts above yours so instead of trying to valiantly defend yourself on the internet why don't you admit you were wrong about something and quiet down.

Can you explain how hits was used incorrectly and provide your results from correct usage then? You call the simulator useless, and tell people not to listen to me because of that, as if the opinion based on a tool which accurately calculates all the variables of Hunter DPS is worse than expressing opinions based on ...nothing?

Femaledwarf has a long history of not being very useful. The best use of it is getting a rough idea of how much DPS you could/should be doing in your gear. Getting mathematically correct results comparing talents, gear or shot priority is not what Femaledwarf was designed for, in fact Zeherah has said that Simcraft is better in all those aspects.

[Azortharion]

As well as within the margin of error.

I think most error was removed with the million or so iterations Glurp did. xD

- - - Updated - - -

If it's wrong in so many ways then why not list them instead of just repeating one thing over and over? Not only do you keep repeating yourself but you also don't provide anything besides condescending remarks. No exargument why this is supposed to be wrong was provided.
And that one iteration averages everything out mathematically so it is the definitive simulation.



Assumed that by picking the Hunter with ~~best gear in the non-Asian world the difference between shot prioritization would show best due to scaling. If you got a better Idea then sim it with more accurately then by all means go for it and show us.


Can you explain how hits was used incorrectly and provide your results from correct usage then? You call the simulator useless, and tell people not to listen to me because of that, as if the opinion based on a tool which accurately calculates all the variables of Hunter DPS is worse than expressing opinions based on ...nothing?









This is what was said before. No reasons or explanation was given whatsoever of why or how any of these opinions came to be. So in the context that such posts had been made it is questionable of why my post in particular received so much obloquy from you.

Opinions based on basic logic like KS and ES doing close to the same damage.

The 1 iteration/FemaleDwarf thing covers why you didn't solve any mystery just fine, in my opinion.

You say that we don't base our opinions (it doesn't matter) on anything, yet you just link some FemaleDwarf results and consider the mystery solved with no idea of why it is or what is going on, hence my comment about average joes using tools they shouldn't be using.

Not sure how long it took you to write that, but about half an hour before you wrote your post, Glurp basically proved how it doesn't matter (1 mill iteration sim, 200 DPS difference means very little DPS error, but that's with BiS, and any (ANY) change of gear can skew those results entirely) bringing us back to the main point of "it doesn't matter" like it was said several times on the first page.

[Deleted]

The only fact here is that people can argue endlessly about such a worthless topic just for the sake of arguing. And that is starting to be a very unique thing of the hunter forums

[Jeremypwnz]

Better than talking about new pets.

[Dracodraco]

Looking at average ES damage in logs simply doesn't work because of how the damage rolls into the next one when fired back to back. You simply cannot value the damage of a DoT based on average ticks, especially not one which rolls damage when clipped. Feel free to pick a fight in that log you linked then look at the damage graph for Explosive shot and notice how it just constantly goes up and down then compare it to Kill Shot where you just see sudden spikes in when it is used.

For the sake of having some half meaningful data I ran this overnight:

0.05% increase to use KS over LnL procs. It could easily go in the other direction if you were a different race, had slightly different gear equipped, different fight length or used a slightly different priority list than I do.

Original statement still stands. It doesn't matter.

Removed the big ass picture.
The point isn't to look at an individual explosive shot and say "oh, it damages for this much". If you do that, you're doing it wrong. Look at Bea's log on say, Iron Juggernaut. 68 Casts of Explosive shot, but only 109 "ticks" because of rollovers. The amount of ticks in this case, is irrelevant. The correct way to look at it is:
27.68M damage divided by 68 casts = 407K average explosive shot damage per cast.
It doesn't matter if the damage is rolled over, because we are looking at casts, *NOT* ticks. We can do the same for the entire night -
564.68M damage divided by 1555 casts = 363K average explosive shot damage over the night
Now kill shot:
53.99M damage divided by 174 kill shots over the night = 310K average kill shot damage over the night.

So on average, explosive shot will do 50K more damage per cast than kill shot. The sample size is an entire night, so it's not just one "rng luck"-parse putting ES ahead - in fact, on juggernaut, with 6 out of 8 kill shot crits, it was still behind by about 50K.

I agree that it's a very small difference in effect due to the chances for it to happen both being low (only sub 20% of a boss fight, during a LnL proc), and the reason for KS pulling ahead is probably from lost KS if prioritizing LnL procs. That said, it's better to get off an extra ES than it is to get off an extra Kill Shot.

Sounds really impressive, but complete fiction of course.

Sounds like someone peed on your cereal. Care to elaborate the issue in my reasoning? ES = more damage per shot on average than kill shot. Free shot vs free shot, the highest average damage shot will take priority. Free shot vs cost shot, the free shot takes priority due to focus savings.

[Nemesiz]

Draco, you. I like you.

[Glurp]

The flaw with comparing the damage per cast over an entire raid night is that Kill Shot is only used under 20% whereas Explosive Shot is used for the whole fight so it's average damage per cast is going to be massively inflated due to proc/buff stacking which generally doesn't happen too much during the execute phase, in comparison to the insane increase during the opener with double trinkets and Skull Banners.

Feel free to go compare average ES damage per cast while a boss is below 20% to average kill shot damage.

tl;dr your reasoning is still shit.

[Dracodraco]

The flaw with comparing the damage per cast over an entire raid night is that Kill Shot is only used under 20% whereas Explosive Shot is used for the whole fight so it's average damage per cast is going to be massively inflated due to proc/buff stacking which generally doesn't happen too much during the execute phase, in comparison to the insane increase during the opener with double trinkets and Skull Banners.

Feel free to go compare average ES damage per cast while a boss is below 20% to average kill shot damage.

tl;dr your reasoning is still shit.

Yea, no. You also fire off a ton more ES while not under procs, bringing the average down. But if you chose to believe so, feel free man.
Just to prove you wrong, here's the damage from KS/ES on Juggernaut sub-20% in the above log:
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...83&end=3807650

12 ES for 4.63M dmg, or 386K per.
8 KS for 2.83M dmg, or 353K per.

Here's Malkorok:
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...73&end=5863649

16 ES for 5.34M dmg, or 334K per.
8 Kill shots for 2.35M dmg, or 294K per.

Here's Thok:
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...35&end=7658130
21 ES for 8.25M, or 393K per.
10 Kill shots for 3.28M, or 320K per.

Here's Sha of Pride:
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...36&end=2456354
12 ES for 4.14M dmg, or 345K per.
10 Kill Shots for 3.15M dmg, or 315K per.

The list goes on. Instead of talking shit, you should probably stick to your boomkin and actually look into stuff before you start blabbering on <.<.

[LolkinEU]

Draco goin ham

[Deleted]

Draco goin ham

HAM SON

hi lolkin pls boost my proraider ranks