Sucks to be Shaman? Warlords of Draenor = NO HIGHLIGHTS.

[DarthWaderr]

Im undecided wether all these changes will level the playing feel back to a vanilla feel where "bring the player, not the class," truly applied. However one can definitely argue that its just a game wide reset to total faceroll

[miffy23]

Im undecided wether all these changes will level the playing feel back to a vanilla feel where "bring the player, not the class," truly applied. However one can definitely argue that its just a game wide reset to total faceroll

I'm sorry what?
"Bring the player, not the class" is true now in MoP more than ever.
Vanilla was exactly the opposite. Want to tank? Better be a Warrior. Want to heal? Better be a priest. DPS? Pray that you get a slot for your class besides the 500 rogues and warriors. Pala, shammy, druid? Go home and sulk.

[esach88]

I'm sorry what?
"Bring the player, not the class" is true now in MoP more than ever.
Vanilla was exactly the opposite. Want to tank? Better be a Warrior. Want to heal? Better be a priest. DPS? Pray that you get a slot for your class besides the 500 rogues and warriors. Pala, shammy, druid? Go home and sulk.

Haha yea it's really funny just how much rose tinted glasses skew some peoples perception of "vanilla" WoW.

[Teriz]

The answer to this should really be remove the weapon specializations they will never use, not redesign the class in such a way to allow for them to use them.

It wouldn't be a redesign, it would be a restoration, since Enhancement was originally designed to use 2H weapons. There's also no logical reason why Enhancement can't be both 2h and DW since DKs and Monks prove that such a duality can work and be balanced.

Also Enhancement is overdue for a spec redesign. The last major one was in WotLK.

I think the reason they don't is because they are ranged specs. Also, lore wise Shaman are not particularly recognised for using shields, but rather charging into battle with the power of the elements, smashing their foes with empowered strikes. Unlike the stereotypical tanks (sword and board warrior) or Paladins in their stereotypical all gold and white plate armor, we don't really have any affiliation with shields. I think the only reason we can even use them is because Paladins can, and originally we were meant to be the Horde version of Paladins, so could do most of the things paladins could do but in reverse (auras vs totems, offensive dispel vs defensive dispel)

The reasons because they don't have shield-required abilities are many. But among them, this is prevalent: unlike the other shield-bearing classes (paladins and warriors), the shaman can use other off-handed items like lanterns, books, cricket cages, etc, which, if they had shield-required abilities, would make those abilities unusable, forcing the class to wield only shields, greatly limiting their choices of gear.

Fair points.

[miffy23]

It wouldn't be a redesign, it would be a restoration, since Enhancement was originally designed to use 2H weapons. There's also no logical reason why Enhancement can't be both 2h and DW since DKs and Monks prove that such a duality can work and be balanced.

Also Enhancement is overdue for a spec redesign. The last major one was in WotLK.

Spec redesigns don't happen because of some elusive schedule somewhere that ordains each and every spec to get a complete rework regularly. They happen when a spec concept feels outdated and clunky in the updated environment of the game, or devs/players aren't happy with it.

This isn't the case with any of the Shaman specs.

[Deleted]

I mained Shaman since vanilla. I grew tired of their treatment, so I mained a Monk in MoP. Shaman was reduced to an alt in MoP. I'm currently leveling him to 90.

Then everyone's a winner Hope you enjoy your new class more than the old one.

Actually I can, since the other classes are getting significant changes to compensate. Shaman are losing LB on the move and are pretty much remaining the same.

Given some of your eye-rollable "I know you are but what am I?" style remarks later on in the post I'm not sure why I'm responding to this properly, but elemental still has plenty of on-the-move abilities and utilities. Does it not make sense to you that we don't need anything extra to compensate given that we can already use our time moving to place totems, cast shocks, cast unleash elements, use instant lava surge procs, and most importantly, have a 2 minute cooldown that, like, let's us cast while we move?

So Shaman were perfect in WotLK/Cataclysm and require no change while every other class was significantly flawed and required change?

You don't really believe that do you?

No. They received changes that improved them, such as the new totem system and Lava Surge (courtesy of a 4.2 set bonus). But they don't need more changes than those smaller ones because the core of the rotation has been pretty good. What I'm saying is they don't need the Balance Druid style overhaul, the occasional change that makes life more fun will be just great. For instance, working Earthquake into our AoE rotation - Shaman is supposed to be the master of small cluster cleave, but spamming CL is not the most engaging, so it is being changed to weave Earthquake in. That's a good change, but it's not an overhaul, because it didn't need to be overhauled, just improved slightly.

So do you believe that Shaman are the most simple class?

Elemental is one of the most simple specs alongside any hunter spec, arcane mage or combat rogue. Some others are probably around the same simplicity.

Its important to note that Retribution (and Paladins in general) have also significantly changed since WotLK. Again, do you believe that Shaman are perfect and all other classes required change?

Retribution definitely needed a change, that spec was really not good until MoP. The whole seal thing back in TBC was a hilariously flawed mechanic, the Inquisition thing was awkward to work with. Enhancement certainly does not suffer from issues along those lines.

It would go a long way towards making the class less clunky, and move our class' gameplay in a more positive direction. Now please tell me how it benefits Shaman to maintain those lockouts.

Well, Restoration doesn't use them significantly so that's not important, and as far as I know Enhancement doesn't even use Earth Shock? As for Elemental, as I said, the shock rotation is a core part of the Elemental play style - it's not even clunky as it is, you just need to know what you're doing, which falls nicely into Blizzard's philosophy of "easy to learn, hard to master" for a spec already as simple as Elemental. A great shaman will be better than a good shaman when they master their shock rotation.

That would be only the case if the class isn't completely revamped along with that change. Again, the shock and totem limits are only in place to give the class an illusion of depth. In reality those limits are clunky design holdovers that serve no legitimate purpose in the modern game.

What is an "illusion of depth"? See above for an explanation of why the shock rotation exists. As for the totems, what do you even mean? Totems are a great utility, and they're much better now than they were before MoP. Drop totems every 5 mins just 'cause was poor. Using totems as active abilities in specific situations is a much better idea and is the essence of the shaman.

Its important to note that Paralytic poison is being removed from Rogue talents in WoD, so that conflict will no longer exist.

Shaman? EGT and SBT still conflict with each other.

Was more just a point of reference towards their philosophy that it really doesn't matter. I don't really understand why you find those two talents to be a problem? You can't place two of *any* totem at the same time, so the talents just conform to the same rules as every other totem. That doesn't mean the talents are bad, because they both have great uses. Perhaps there is reasoning behind them being this way. Perhaps they don't want you to use Stone Bulwark at the same time as your Earth Elemental, or Earthgrab at the same time as Tremor. The totem system could actually allow the spec to be more difficult by making things more restrictive in this way, but it isn't, which tells me that they're rather particular about how much they want to restrict you, which means it was obviously taken into consideration.

Name them.

Heh, I'm not going to be your personal assistant and go through every talent just to satisfy your need to argue with people. But off the top of my head, abilities such as Arcane Barrage, Cobra Shot, Revealing Strike, stuff like that, have no talents that change their effects.

It's at this point I realised you're actually just here to have an argument with someone. Pretty uncool, really.

Fulmination, MSW, and Tidal Waves aren't spells, they are secondary systems that aren't true resources, like the Druid Eclipse system, and the Monk Brew system. Guess what? Druids and Monks both have talents that benefit Brews and the Eclipse system.

I'm struggling to see why monks having a talent that affects brews and druids having a talent that affects eclipse means shamans need a talent that affects fulmination, maelstrom weapon and tidal waves. Other classes have weak talent rows too. Mage level 90 for instance.

Howabout using some actual imagination? That would be a start. I would like to at least see the level of creativity and boldness I'm seeing emerge in other specs.

BTW, why no talents pulled from all the Dark Shaman we fought in SoO? Why no new talents from the Thunder King raid boss?

What would you add then? And what would you replace?

Really? I thought you played a Rogue. Currently as a Rogue you need to build CPs as quickly as possible on a target in order to perform finishing moves. Imagine now what it will be like to get 3 CPs and a target dies. You now have 3 CPs stored to do what ever you want. You can heal yourself with Recuperate, or save your CPs to open up with a powerful finisher. Its a pretty major change to Rogue gameplay.

You can do that now. Non-damaging abilities such as Slice and Dice and Recuperate consume combo points off enemies that are dead, and Redirect places the combo points on a new target.

So literally nothing changes apart from the removal of Redirect, which is just a quality of life change.

It would be nice if Shaman got a similar significant change. I guess losing LB on the move was a significant change in the opposite direction...

It's not significant considering all other classes are getting the same mobility treatment, as discussed.

[Deleted]

Spec redesigns don't happen because of some elusive schedule somewhere that ordains each and every spec to get a complete rework regularly. They happen when a spec concept feels outdated and clunky in the updated environment of the game, or devs/players aren't happy with it.

This isn't the case with any of the Shaman specs.

Pretty much this. Possibly upsetting a large portion of the community, currently silent because they have nothing to complain about, by completely changing how a class plays just for the sake of it is an all round bad move for Blizzard. They have to dedicate significant man power into both designing and then balancing this new play style, as well as continuing to support the old one, and all with no guarantee of it actually being well received. There is a reason they removed it in the first place, because it was stupid to balance and didn't really bring anything extra to the class beyond 'trololol I can 1 shot you'.

[Deleted]

Spec redesigns don't happen because of some elusive schedule somewhere that ordains each and every spec to get a complete rework regularly. They happen when a spec concept feels outdated and clunky in the updated environment of the game, or devs/players aren't happy with it.

This isn't the case with any of the Shaman specs.

I share this sentiment, however there are some mechanics/talents that need urgent revision. Searing Totem (actually fire totems in general) is one such example.

[Teriz]

Spec redesigns don't happen because of some elusive schedule somewhere that ordains each and every spec to get a complete rework regularly. They happen when a spec concept feels outdated and clunky in the updated environment of the game, or devs/players aren't happy with it.

This isn't the case with any of the Shaman specs.

Enhancement and Elemental are both overdue for a spec redesign. They haven't been significantly changed since WotLK.

I won't comment on Resto since I don't play it, but Tiberria makes good arguments on why that spec is overdue for an overhaul as well.

Based purely on talents and our sinking class population the evidence for a Shaman overhaul is pretty clear.

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Pretty much this. Possibly upsetting a large portion of the community, currently silent because they have nothing to complain about, by completely changing how a class plays just for the sake of it is an all round bad move for Blizzard. They have to dedicate significant man power into both designing and then balancing this new play style, as well as continuing to support the old one, and all with no guarantee of it actually being well received. There is a reason they removed it in the first place, because it was stupid to balance and didn't really bring anything extra to the class beyond 'trololol I can 1 shot you'.

Priests, Druids, Warriors, Monks, Rogues, and Hunters are all getting significant gameplay changes in WoD.

You're telling me that Shaman don't need at least a refresher on their older mechanics?

[Tokas]

The expansion won't be out until November. There's plenty of time for many things to change.

Right... because that has happened how many times? Zero? We're always left to rot, because others (especially mages) know how to cry.

[Deleted]

Enhancement and Elemental are both overdue for a spec redesign. They haven't been significantly changed since WotLK.

I won't comment on Resto since I don't play it, but Tiberria makes good arguments on why that spec is overdue for an overhaul as well.

Based purely on talents and our sinking class population the evidence for a Shaman overhaul is pretty clear.

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Priests, Druids, Warriors, Monks, Rogues, and Hunters are all getting significant gameplay changes in WoD.

You're telling me that Shaman don't need at least a refresher on their older mechanics?

Its just not true that shaman haven't changed since Wrath. For Elemental, Fulmination and Lava Surge have both been added since then, completely changing our rotation from something you could literally macro if you had the right amounts of haste to something you have to manage. Before Cata Lava Lash was so weak it was debated whether Flametounge Weapon should even be used by Enhancement Shaman, and in Mists it was changed so that it completely revamped the way their AoE rotation worked.

In regards to totems, they completely revamped the system, moving it away from stat sticks and towards active abilities that you actually notice when you use. The only thing that remains as a stat stick is Searing Totem, which I have been openly against for a while. The only other remaining factor is that they are still totems, but that is like saying buffs should get reworked because they are still buffs.

[Blithe]

Its just not true that shaman haven't changed since Wrath. For Elemental, Fulmination and Lava Surge have both been added since then, completely changing our rotation from something you could literally macro if you had the right amounts of haste to something you have to manage. Before Cata Lava Lash was so weak it was debated whether Flametounge Weapon should even be used by Enhancement Shaman, and in Mists it was changed so that it completely revamped the way their AoE rotation worked.

In regards to totems, they completely revamped the system, moving it away from stat sticks and towards active abilities that you actually notice when you use. The only thing that remains as a stat stick is Searing Totem, which I have been openly against for a while. The only other remaining factor is that they are still totems, but that is like saying buffs should get reworked because they are still buffs.

I still think Fulmination is just a shitty band-aid fix, and an excuse for Elemental to use Lightning Shield.

[Deleted]

I still think Fulmination is just a shitty band-aid fix, and an excuse for Elemental to use Lightning Shield.

And a good one at that.

Shock rotation <3

[Teriz]

Its just not true that shaman haven't changed since Wrath. For Elemental, Fulmination and Lava Surge have both been added since then, completely changing our rotation from something you could literally macro if you had the right amounts of haste to something you have to manage.

Fulmination and Lava Surge were both introduced in Cataclysm. Compare the changes between Elemental and the the other two hybrid DPS casters (Spriests and Bdruids) since that time.

Big difference.

Before Cata Lava Lash was so weak it was debated whether Flametounge Weapon should even be used by Enhancement Shaman, and in Mists it was changed so that it completely revamped the way their AoE rotation worked.

Because Enhance had severe AoE issues. Blizzard was repairing a design flaw in the spec to keep it competitive, not overhauling the spec like it needed to do. In other words you're bringing up band-aids. Other classes have recieved do-overs. Enhance needs a do-over.

In regards to totems, they completely revamped the system, moving it away from stat sticks and towards active abilities that you actually notice when you use. The only thing that remains as a stat stick is Searing Totem, which I have been openly against for a while. The only other remaining factor is that they are still totems, but that is like saying buffs should get reworked because they are still buffs.

Actually they weren't reworked. All that happened is that Blizzard removed aura/buff totems and introduced more ability totems. If you disagree please tell what has really changed? We always had ability totems. If anything the system is actually worse because I can't drop 4 totems at once like I could in cataclysm.

[Nebria]

Its just not true that shaman haven't changed since Wrath. For Elemental, Fulmination and Lava Surge have both been added since then, completely changing our rotation from something you could literally macro if you had the right amounts of haste to something you have to manage. Before Cata Lava Lash was so weak it was debated whether Flametounge Weapon should even be used by Enhancement Shaman, and in Mists it was changed so that it completely revamped the way their AoE rotation worked.

In regards to totems, they completely revamped the system, moving it away from stat sticks and towards active abilities that you actually notice when you use. The only thing that remains as a stat stick is Searing Totem, which I have been openly against for a while. The only other remaining factor is that they are still totems, but that is like saying buffs should get reworked because they are still buffs.

don't forget the elemental aoe changed during cata. we first had fs and fire nova which spreaded it, then we got earthquake as channeled spell, then we got cl spam cause eq got a cd, low dmg etc.

[Eliot123]

Let's not pretend the totem ''revamp'' was a huge thing. The change didn't have any big impact on anyone who was playing shaman for more then 2 months, they basically just changed buff sticks into auras and added a ~clunky AoE stun and a ''push-this-on-CD'' minor raid cooldown. On the scale of meaningful mechanic changes of a class from 1 to 10 this would qualify as 0.2.

[Durandro]

We've been shit on every expansion. So we're kinda numb to it all by now.

Someone's clearly forgotten when Shaman got regular tweeks and buffs throughout Cataclysm. Remember when Chain Lightning had a cooldown?

Shaman have received plenty of love.

[mrinvisable2]

Someone's clearly forgotten when Shaman got regular fixes throughout Cataclysm. Remember when Chain Lightning had a cooldown?

Shaman have received plenty of FIXES to shamanism.

corrected you.

BUT really is it to hard to ask to be good(not op) @ start of exp?

last 3 exp first 2 tiers resto is crap on last tiers good

ele last 3 tiers good for middle tier and about 6 or 7 buffs of shamanism in between 3 exps

cant comment on enha much but atleast on ST last 2 tiers enha is good

[Deleted]

Fulmination and Lava Surge were both introduced in Cataclysm. Compare the changes between Elemental and the the other two hybrid DPS casters (Spriests and Bdruids) since that time.

Big difference.

You're just moving the bar now. Before you said 'No changes since Wrath', so I point out changes since Wrath and now you say 'No changes since cataclysm'. It seems to me you are just trying to deliberately make the issue seem worse than it is.

Because Enhance had severe AoE issues. Blizzard was repairing a design flaw in the spec to keep it competitive, not overhauling the spec like it needed to do. In other words you're bringing up band-aids. Other classes have recieved do-overs. Enhance needs a do-over.

So they had issues and they got fixed, but those changes somehow don't count? Why is a complete overhaul needed? Just because? You say everything 'needs' to change, but why? It literally seems to me that it you think it needs to change just because it hasn't changed, which makes little to no sense to me. They have made changes to improve the class where it needs it, and I am in no way saying it is perfect, but change for changes sake is not always a good thing.

Actually they weren't reworked. All that happened is that Blizzard removed aura/buff totems and introduced more ability totems. If you disagree please tell what has really changed? We always had ability totems. If anything the system is actually worse because I can't drop 4 totems at once like I could in cataclysm.

So they removed some abilities and added more. If you break down every rework ever, that is what it comes down too. They removed stuff and added more stuff. You are just moving the bar all the time to purposely make it look bad when it really isn't. In Wrath you basically had no choice about your totems. They even gave us a spell that let you drop all 4 at once, so you literally forgot they existed for the next 5 minutes, except for when you used Fire Elemental (also every 5 minutes). Minus fire elemental, totems were completely uninteractive.

Now (minus Searing Totem and HST) every single one of them is a niche spell, only used in certain situations, that require you to make a concious choice to use, and that you need to prepare yourself before you use (Fire Elemental lined up with other cooldowns for example - this being the only one that works how it used too though). That seems like a major change to me.

corrected you.

BUT really is it to hard to ask to be good(not op) @ start of exp?

last 3 exp first 2 tiers resto is crap on last tiers good

ele last 3 tiers good for middle tier and about 6 or 7 buffs of shamanism in between 3 exps

cant comment on enha much but atleast on ST last 2 tiers enha is good

I have seen this argument repeatedly ever since I started playing WoW, and it just doesn't hold up. We are pretty middle of the pack (maybe not great right now, but most of the expansion and for most expansions before now), and that is where you SHOULD be. If you ask to be in the top 5-10, you are asking to be overpowered, not be balanced. There are 23 DPS specs in the game, so in a perfect world everyone would be within 5% of the average between rank 11 and 12. Anything higher than that and you are asking to be OP.

Before you answer with something like 'But Mages/Warlocks are always at the top, thats not fair', no it isn't. But that doesn't mean we should get 'our turn at number 1' or something similar. It shouldn't be a 'everyone gets a turn at being good', it should be everyone is good, but if everyone is good, then no-one is. If Mages and Warlocks or whoever are always at the top, that is an issue with them, not an issue with us.

Buffs feel nice, and it is generally a nicer experience for them to buff classes than nerf them, but if you are in the middle of the pack and then there are a few specs that are higher than you, the answer isn't buff everyone below them, it is nerf those classes (note that if you are below the middle, then the opposite is true, the answer is to buff you, not nerf the others).

However, the answer to balance is never "Can't we be good for once?".

[Darksoldierr]

Wrath babies abound?
Shaman was COMPLETELY changed from Vanilla/TBC to Wrath/Cata. We actually got more changes than Pally and Druid, probably.

As for the current state of affairs, Shamans are in an excellent place both tuning and gameplay-wise. All three specs are rather popular and play very smoothly, with Enhancement being the unwieldiest and least popular probably (I've been an Enhancement main since Vanilla when it was still a fun spec without real use).

Shamans definitely don't need any major overhaul or revisiting in my opinion.

As for raid cooldowns @ Ravensword: I think you missed the point where basically 75% or more of all of those raid cooldowns are being removed from most classes. The entire philosophy is moving away from cooldown-stacking for everyone, not just Shamans.

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I don't think farming lower level content is a valid concern for balancing max level abilities.
Enh AoE is intended to have a ramp-up, that being said it is entirely competitive, and I rather enjoy it since MoP. Garrosh 1st phase is quite fun as Enh.

Gaining lava lash, mealstorm weapon and wolfes is not COMPLETELY changed. It called bringing us up to par. The fundamentals (as enhance) was there since 2.0 when dual wield was introduced.
Maelstorm weapon was added as SR wasn't reliable mana regeneration in PvP and also to hold the feel of "melee dps spell caster"
Lava Lash was added so you have actually something to press while waiting for Stormstrike CD to come up
Wolves were cool addition, i give that. Too bad they gutted them since then and you cannot control them anymore

And since that? Fire Nova totem was moved to be instant, first it exploded on your fire totem, then on your flame shock targets. Lava lash spreads flame shock. WoW, many change, such remake of class

Asc was added since enhance was the only class in the entire game without dmg boost cd, again, as bringing us up to par.

And since that? Nothing. We use the exact same attacks as in TBC/Wotlk just with more redefined controls, apply mechanism and nerfed utilities. (Remember what enhance bought to raid in TBC and what it brings now)

COMPLETELY remade class

For the record, i'm not complaining, next spring my Shaman (my only char i play and my only main i ever played as) will turn 10 year old. I like the class overall, its fun to play and engaging both in PvP and PvE (i dislike few things, but thats for another thread), but do not say things like COMPLETELY changed when in reality, enhance was kinda the same since TBC with few QoL changes (and i played enhance since S1, i was hardcore raider, high lvl pvp player and great causal nowdays, i don't talk out of blue)