Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[urasim]

I spend pages debating with people i disagree with. You derive your own meaning from one of my sentences, decide you don't like the opinion you've made for me, then decide i'm not worth talking to.

The funny thing about this is you expect people to accept your personal opinion in this argument, yet when you hear mine(or the one you created for me), you're not up for the debate any more. Awesome.

Is there a reason why you focus on that instead of the actual points? Is it because you can't actually debate?

[Nayaga]

Where in my post (quoted) did I mention about flying and ground speeds? Isn't the speed difference kinda obvious?

And lets take a look at, mm... Kun-Lai Summit. A large zone in Northern Pandaria, yet it's quite empty and almost nothing slows you down there.

If zones of WoD are empty of mobs, leveling is going to be very boring.

[Sarkol]

Is there a reason why you focus on that instead of the actual points? Is it because you can't actually debate?

Your points do nothing to change the fact that Blizzard wants you to see and interact more with the world they create. I can't change your mind on the fact you think it's bad design to remove flying. You don't kill all the fucking mobs no, but they are there, in the world, as an obstacle, because fantasy game. You're more vulnerable on the floor. With everyone on the floor it will condense people into an area such that the world will seem more active. Player engagement WILL increase. It changes the world dynamic. There are lots of reasons, which i'm sure you will just counter, but it's all opinion.

[hyphnos]

Maybe it slows it. I disagree with Blizzard on a lot of things, but i really agree that flying invalidates the shit out of the content they design. A good design goal would be to have areas of each type, instead of mixing it up. Specifically designed ground content and flying content. It's not like it's new either. Blizzard have released a lot of patch content ground only, so it's not like players aren't slightly used to it.

Not sure what to really say apart from other subjective positives i feel come from flying. You call it wasting time, i agree with the fact that flying over everything Blizzard does cheapens the world a bit.

And you're basically talking about the design they used in Mists. No flying while levelling over the main continent of Pandaria, coupled with flying for content for max level players which in 5.0/5.1/5.3 consisted largely of dailies/weekly quests.

Do explain to all of us how exactly Jade Forest or Kun-Lai, or Townlong or any other outdoor Pandaria levelling zone is "cheapened" when you are flying over them when they by and large contain only a few rares and some dailies designed knowing players would have flying as level 90 content.

[Nayaga]

Well, was Pandaria leveling boring? Or well, pretty much whole 1 to 90, to be honest? I actually found it quite interesting.

Even in Isle of Thunder, where citadel is filled with trolls, I manage to move without pulling a single troll or getting dazed. Just a bit tactical planning, instead of going through every single troll and raptor there.

Traveling carefully on the ground bypassing irrelevant mobs to get to a herb will much slower than flying to it. There is no risk, challenge and little reward to being forced
to travel slow through low level mobs. It's a boring waste of time.

[Osmeric]

If you travel carefully on the ground bypassing irrelevant mobs to get to a herb will much slower than flying to it.

Well gosh. Since we all agree that maximizing herbing speed is the single primary source of fun in the game, this will clearly suck.

Sarcasm aside, maybe you will agree that maximizing herbing speed with flying opens the gates to botting? That making people fight mobs occasionally to get to resource nodes will make bots harder to create, and make PvP herbing more PvPish?

[Nayaga]

Well gosh. Since we all agree that maximizing herbing speed is the single primary source of fun in the game, this will clearly suck.

Sarcasm aside, maybe you will agree that maximizing herbing speed with flying opens the gates to botting? That making people fight mobs occasionally to get to resource nodes will make bots harder to create, and make PvP herbing more PvPish?

herbing was just one example of why people go out in cleared zones once we get to level cap.

I'm not on a pvp server.

[Sarkol]

Traveling carefully on the ground bypassing irrelevant mobs to get to a herb will much slower than flying to it. There is no risk, challenge and little reward to being forced
to travel slow through low level mobs. It's a boring waste of time.

Dude, there really are more reasons to remove flying than FUCK CONVENIENCE. It's not just about that. Please see past your own personal gripes to consider the other angles.

[Destruktion]

You missed my point entirely. I am guessing you did it on purpose and not because you lack reading comprehension. Being forced to play any game the way someone wants is bad design. Taking away choice is bad design. I don't mind the illusion of choice, but they don't even offer that...

This is not a universal truth. One can make the case that taking away this particular choice is bad design, but removing choice is not always a bad idea.

[Deleted]

This is not a universal truth. One can make the case that taking away this particular choice is bad design, but removing choice is not always a bad idea.

No sir . They can't remove the choice: I choosed to close my wallet to Blizzard.
No Diablo expansion , no subscription , no WOD buy . No money in Hearthstone.
My money went to steam games instead . Credit card voting. Congrat Blizzard.

[Sunseeker]

This is not a universal truth. One can make the case that taking away this particular choice is bad design, but removing choice is not always a bad idea.

Sure, there is such a thing as false choice (ie: the illusion of choice), and too much choice.

However, I think it is generally a superior option to provide more equitable choices, instead of only allowing one-way-to-play.

[muppetpilot]

This is not a universal truth. One can make the case that taking away this particular choice is bad design, but removing choice is not always a bad idea.

You have a valid point, sir/ma'am, but in the case of MMOs, I would counter by saying that while removing player choice is indeed not always a bad idea, it's pretty darn close. The example I would propose is the myriad so-called "WoW-killers" or supposed pretenders to WoW's player base throne we have seen come and go over the years, most of which have ultimately become failures, at least as far as their number of active players are concerned.

I still play WoW and Gw 1, primarily because both of those games offer multiple paths of progression; you can go all-out hardcore, midcore, or not at all; regardless of your play style, you can generally feel like you are headed for something on the horizon. So many of the mostly-terrible MMOs that have been over-hyped have failed to fulfill their potential primarily because they shoehorned people into certain play styles or forced people to take one path or another, or simply did not provide enough content to satiate most players. Point being, when you're expecting people to pay for the privilege of playing your game, you can bet your butt that those people are going to expect to be able to play their own way, and that goes doubly for a game requiring a subscription fee.

I can't help but believe that the proposed removal of flying, even in a limited area, will result in the removal of even more subscriptions. If some elitist or so-called purist wants to ground-pound, he or she is more than welcome to, even with flying mounts being available. Forcing players to stick to the ground, when many of us have seen how dreadfully inefficient such travel is, is not a good idea, at least not from the perspective of retaining paying players.

[Nayaga]

Dude, there really are more reasons to remove flying than FUCK CONVENIENCE. It's not just about that. Please see past your own personal gripes to consider the other angles.

What reasons?

[Sarkol]

What reasons?

No offense but i have no interest in repeating said arguments and reasons again. Let's just have our opinions and leave it at that.

[Destruktion]

Sure, there is such a thing as false choice (ie: the illusion of choice), and too much choice.

However, I think it is generally a superior option to provide more equitable choices, instead of only allowing one-way-to-play.

I would agree with that. I think balancing flying with ground travel would be a better way to go.

You have a valid point, sir/ma'am, but in the case of MMOs, I would counter by saying that while removing player choice is indeed not always a bad idea, it's pretty darn close. The example I would propose is the myriad so-called "WoW-killers" or supposed pretenders to WoW's player base throne we have seen come and go over the years, most of which have ultimately become failures, at least as far as their number of active players are concerned..

It's a false choice, the choice between flying and ground travel, because one is clearly better in every respect than the other. All flying did was set a new standard for travel in the open world, one that apparently Blizzard does not want to design open world content for.

Was removing the "choice" to fly a bad idea? Arguably, yes. But we'll see how it plays out.

[Doomchicken]

I stand corrected, I thought it topped at 6.

As to why people came or didn't come, it doesn't matter. Flight was part of that formula, and we can't possibly second guess that without significantly more data. It was needed for the world. I will wholeheartedly agree that the storyline of TBC was fantastic and cohesive. But I also felt the same with WotLK, it just felt right.

It's been disjointed since WotLK ended. Using your same logic, if I can't say flying added, you can't say that flying has pushed people away either. It's the story, right? So for them to go this 'no flight' stuff is kind of dumb......if the story is that good, people will play it.

If flying was the main thing bringing people to the game then why isn't it the main thing keeping people in the game? Why has it dropped from 12.5 million to 7.7? It's not as big part of the picture that you make it out to be.

[Sweetpeaz]

If flying was the main thing bringing people to the game then why isn't it the main thing keeping people in the game? Why has it dropped from 12.5 million to 7.7? It's not as big part of the picture that you make it out to be.

What are you asking here? Nobody said that the game got to 12/5 million solely because of flying, what is true is that it was part of the equation.

This will be cleared up easily enough though. If they don't allow flight and stay at 7 million subs you will be correct. If not, you will be wrong. Pretty simple really.

[Doomchicken]

I would agree with that. I think balancing flying with ground travel would be a better way to go.



It's a false choice, the choice between flying and ground travel, because one is clearly better in every respect than the other. All flying did was set a new standard for travel in the open world, one that apparently Blizzard does not want to design open world content for.

Was removing the "choice" to fly a bad idea? Arguably, yes. But we'll see how it plays out.

One that blizzard and very very few developers do not want to do design open world content for. I'm not against flying or people who like flying, It just seems to me if Blizzard no longer want it and most of the mmo developers don't want it, then there has to be something about it that negatively effects how MMO's play out.

It seems really really odd to me, if that Flying was as some people claim one of the reasons that WoW got to the level of popularity that it did that then wouldn't every mmo be trying to implement their version of it? I mean, these guys can add shit like that without being a total WoW clone so why haven't they?

But yeah, we'll wait and see.

- - - Updated - - -

What are you asking here? Nobody said that the game got to 12/5 million solely because of flying, what is true is that it was part of the equation.

This will be cleared up easily enough though. If they don't allow flight and stay at 7 million subs you will be correct. If not, you will be wrong. Pretty simple really.

Not really. It won't prove anything regardless of how far subs rise or how far subs fall. WoW has gained numbers big time and lost numbers big time in the time flying has been out. First quarter of MOP before TOT even came out WoW lost over 1 million subscribers. Certainly flying had nothing to do with that equation. Lost more than that back in Cata.

The key to WoD's success won't be because of flying. They are going back to the things that have been proven to be big draws in the past. Characters and Places that the fans of the RTS game series of Warcraft that people know and want to interact with and hopefully good story and good content. Whether they are still big draws in 2014 with an everchanging and everexpanding mmo market is anyone's guess.

The key to WoD's failure also won't be because of no flying. In Cata and MoP the big drops were because blizz gated the casuals too damn hard and they quit. Super hard dungeons with randoms and no other gearing paths/a billion dailies that feel mandatory coupled with Rep AND valor gating for gear that's better than the LFR gear have been proven ways to kill casual interest. Doing something like that will bring the subs massively down.

The only way the no flying = WoW's doom could possibly be proven right is if they manage to do everything perfectly and still lose subs. But since flying has never been proven to be a draw, nor has it actually proven to be a sub loser, then likely we'll never truly know how many people love flying to the point that removing them is a deal breaker.

[Sweetpeaz]

Not really. It won't prove anything regardless of how far subs rise or how far subs fall. WoW has gained numbers big time and lost numbers big time in the time flying has been out. First quarter of MOP before TOT even came out WoW lost over 1 million subscribers. Certainly flying had nothing to do with that equation. Lost more than that back in Cata.

The key to WoD's success won't be because of flying. They are going back to the things that have been proven to be big draws in the past. Characters and Places that the fans of the RTS game series of Warcraft that people know and want to interact with and hopefully good story and good content. Whether they are still big draws in 2014 with an everchanging and everexpanding mmo market is anyone's guess.

The key to WoD's failure also won't be because of no flying. In Cata and MoP the big drops were because blizz gated the casuals too damn hard and they quit. Super hard dungeons with randoms and no other gearing paths/a billion dailies that feel mandatory coupled with Rep AND valor gating for gear that's better than the LFR gear have been proven ways to kill casual interest. Doing something like that will bring the subs massively down.

The only way the no flying = WoW's doom could possibly be proven right is if they manage to do everything perfectly and still lose subs. But since flying has never been proven to be a draw, nor has it actually proven to be a sub loser, then likely we'll never truly know how many people love flying to the point that removing them is a deal breaker.

What a cooked book response that was.

You start out by saying that it won't matter and then try to justify why it couldn't possibly matter.

This is really simple. You can like no flying and I'm happy for you, really. But this is an easy one to see coming, really easy.

Back in 5.0 and 5.1 I was on the forums reading the thousands of posts about dailies and their reputations being gated. And you know what the fanbois all said "Suck it up, you're wrong" As soon as the sub numbers came out we had a fix, because that is what they care about. Never mind that people were saying for months that it was hurting the game, the developers and their minions weren't hearing any of it.

So again, we shall see. If they change their minds it is for one reason and one reason alone....that people like me were right and fanbois were wrong.

Oh...and as for it not being a draw, it's the single biggest draw for items sold at the store, and my guess is most of those don't buy the armored bloodwing because it looks so cool on the ground. One mount that sells 500,000 copies equals $12.5 million

$12.5 million is equal to the subscriptions for 833889 people in North America, for a single month.

It's a good thing people don't flying much though. /s

[Doomchicken]

What a cooked book response that was.

You start out by saying that it won't matter and then try to justify why it couldn't possibly matter.

This is really simple. You can like no flying and I'm happy for you, really. But this is an easy one to see coming, really easy.

Back in 5.0 and 5.1 I was on the forums reading the thousands of posts about dailies and their reputations being gated. And you know what the fanbois all said "Suck it up, you're wrong" As soon as the sub numbers came out we had a fix, because that is what they care about. Never mind that people were saying for months that it was hurting the game, the developers and their minions weren't hearing any of it.

So again, we shall see. If they change their minds it is for one reason and one reason alone....that people like me were right and fanbois were wrong.

Oh...and as for it not being a draw, it's the single biggest draw for items sold at the store, and my guess is most of those don't buy the armored bloodwing because it looks so cool on the ground. One mount that sells 500,000 copies equals $12.5 million

$12.5 million is equal to the subscriptions for 833889 people in North America, for a single month.

It's a good thing people don't flying much though. /s

The store means jack shit because it's not a continuous supply. Even if assuming that 12.5 million dollar figure that you made up is even close to accurate theres 2 things you "conveniently" forgot about.

1) It's a one time only transaction. If their subs increase they will get more money out of their subs than "lost" at the blizzard store
2) there's no reason to assume that if they removed all flying mounts from the store today and replaced them with ground mounts that looked as good that they wouldn't do around the same sales.

Also you equated to no flying in WoD and compared it to the reason why the subs dropped in 5.0. Halting of casual progression, which is wrong. No flying won't stop people from queuing for dungeons, lfrs, grouping for flexis, scenarios and so forth. If the casuals can still get their gear at a reasonable rate, then it won't be like 5.0, or 4.0. Because people can still progress without flying.