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  1. #641
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Celestalon said in the Finalboss interview (which was quoted on MMOC frontpage) Warlock and Elemental were going to get the biggest nerf on their movement DPS.
    Celestalon also said they will leave KjC untouched and later justified his one-eighty with ... well he basically admitted he did it just for the lulz. This guy has flip-flopped on so many issues without any reasonable explanation other than his daily mood, i wouldn't trust anything that comes out of his mouth.
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  2. #642
    You know that's the exact attitude that makes Blizzard not want to share anything with the community until it's done, right? The whole "taking anything and everything said as 100% committed gospel" thing. It's entirely possible for design and design goals to change day to day as more work and testing is done.

  3. #643
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    The problem being it's not really "OK" if one of the specs is garbage on heavy movement, it's less bad than if a hybrid is, but it's certainly not good.
    By that logic it seems to suggest that a hybrid should be capable of performing well on every fight, at which point you're getting to the complete opposite of the hybrid tax - why take a pure if a hybrid's one spec is capable of performing on every fight + has the versatility of multiple roles?
    Hybrid tax as it was is gone, but some still remains, most notably in this expansion hybrids had strong utility and off healing. I never said Shadow must perform equal as all 3 Warlock specs combined, but the talent tree is Shadow's power to where Warlock gains its power from talent tree and 3 different specs. I fully underline a DPS able to pump out 100k HPS on Norushen or Thok does not have to be on par with the DPS of say a Warlock. In WoD, because hybrid off heal is nerfed (we only keep PWS and DP's self heal; rest is gone, but a perk will lower our WS from PWS), I expect they get compensated damage-wise.

    Destruction being bad on heavy movement, Affliction being bad on cleave, and Demonology being bad at ... something (AoE on distance, requiring melee range for optimal?), seems all niches and that's OK. One can also flip it around and enforce the notion of the positive.

    It might be okay if pure specs had identical gearing / stat weights - you may not even have that spec available if your classes specialities are spread over 3 different specs at which point you need to hearth, respec, reforge etc before a fight - I don't think that's "OK" anymore, and even then you'd have people who simply do not want to play that spec.
    Yep I get that point, it sucks if you gotta use your 3rd spec. Which is why generally 1 spec is best, and then the other one is good on one fight. Warlock @ Firelands, Mage @ Firelands, but also Mage @ ToT and Warlock @ SoO are all examples of that. I'm not sure about Warlock @ ToT. I know Demonology was great there, but I remember our Warlocks even being Affliction and Destruction on certain fights.

    I think it's fine if one spec is specialised more towards one role than another, but you shouldn't have a spec that is just complete and utter garbage in a scenario, which destro looks like it's shaping up to be.
    Light movement seems fine, heavy doesn't. Most fights are light movement. Only a few are heavy. On those heavy movement fights, melee are very likely going to shine. They already did actually, but the community doesn't seem to realize. Rogue and Feral? Amazing on both Lei Shen and Garrosh. Absolutely amazing damage and utility. If most ranged are going to suck on heavy movement, maybe with a talent or spec to cope with it, I'd say that's a good thing because -and I say that as a rDPS- melee do need a niche, or more precise: keep their niche, being: the best single target DPS on the move. That'd include Ret, WW, and at least one DK DPS spec.

  4. #644
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Maybe because Ele Sham is pretty shit right now? They provide some great cleave, and some off healing and utility, but one of the worst single target (you need to go Enhance for that). Ele's damage on the move is getting nerfed and Blizzard commented Warlock and Elemental were going to get hit the most hard on the damage on the move. No more Lightning Bolt on the move. No glyph for it either. And yet the Ele Sham community (IIRC it was an Elemenal Shaman from Temerity) did some preliminary theorycrafting, noting it wasn't a huge DPS loss.

    Strangely I don't see the Warlock community calculate their DPS loss at all ...
    Elemental shamans single target damage is not the worst. Shadow priests and Marksmanship hunters still dominate the number 1 & 2 spot.

  5. #645
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hikashuri View Post
    Elemental shamans single target damage is not the worst. Shadow priests and Marksmanship hunters still dominate the number 1 & 2 spot.
    They're terrible single target. True, a little bit better than Shadow, but terrible, and not far above Shadow. Which means they're among the worst.

    I discount MM in comparisons, because Hunter has 2 other viable specs, but don't tell the Warlocks here about that cause they'll surely find that unfair ...

  6. #646
    since i dont have a max level warlock. besides movement while casting, whats the big deal about KJC?
    Anemo: traveler, Sucrose
    Pyro: Yanfei, Amber, diluc, xiangling, thoma, Xinyan, Bennett
    Geo: Noelle, Ningguang, Yun Jin, Gorou
    Hydro: Barbara, Zingqiu, Ayato
    Cyro: Shenhe, Kaeya, Chongyun, Diona, Ayaka, Rosaria
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  7. #647
    Mind if I roll need? xskarma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    since i dont have a max level warlock. besides movement while casting, whats the big deal about KJC?
    Nothing. That's the whole issue. With removing it and removing Fel Flame they did not only take away our movement DPS, but also the buttons we used to push during movement. Moving around now means you lack things to do especially when movement is prolonged or often, especially in Destruction.

    There's secondary issues, again, especially for Destruction, but most of the complaint is one of this creating uninteresting playstyles with increased movement.

  8. #648
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    Nothing. That's the whole issue. With removing it and removing Fel Flame they did not only take away our movement DPS, but also the buttons we used to push during movement. Moving around now means you lack things to do especially when movement is prolonged or often, especially in Destruction.

    There's secondary issues, again, especially for Destruction, but most of the complaint is one of this creating uninteresting playstyles with increased movement.
    i see. well all caster movement is being nerfed. i full understand why, even though they could have made a mechanic that is anti range that silences you until you move out of it.
    Anemo: traveler, Sucrose
    Pyro: Yanfei, Amber, diluc, xiangling, thoma, Xinyan, Bennett
    Geo: Noelle, Ningguang, Yun Jin, Gorou
    Hydro: Barbara, Zingqiu, Ayato
    Cyro: Shenhe, Kaeya, Chongyun, Diona, Ayaka, Rosaria
    Electro: Fischl, Lisa, Miko, Kujou, Raiden, Razor

  9. #649
    I'd much rather keep a damage nerfed Fel Flame and have KJC changed to something else. Maybe something like:

    "Kil'jaeden's Cunning - Calls upon the cunning of Kil'jaeden to reduce the mana cost of Warlock spells by 50%, and permit movement while casting non damaging Warlock spells. Lasts 8 sec. 2 charges. 1 min cd."

    That way, we get to keep Fel Flame (and while we're at it, how about making it available earlier in the Warlock leveling experience, say around mid-late teens?) along with an active talent that gives more mobile utility than mobile dps (which never ends well for us).
    Last edited by Roujeaux; 2014-06-07 at 03:09 AM.
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  10. #650
    Losing Fel flame as a resource generator is a crushing blow to both destro and demo in pvp. Shadow bolt especially as demo is just a ridiculously long cast time with mellee on you. And drain life won't be much of an alternative.

  11. #651
    Mind if I roll need? xskarma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucidious View Post
    Losing Fel flame as a resource generator is a crushing blow to both destro and demo in pvp. Shadow bolt especially as demo is just a ridiculously long cast time with mellee on you. And drain life won't be much of an alternative.
    Drain Life always felt to me like it screamed "Follow the green beam to where I am and interupt me", same with MG and DS for that matter. But there's just something so OBVIOUS to the green beam of Drain Life that it's going to be a psychological effect on opponents to follow it and make sure you stop doing it.

  12. #652
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Convinced the only reason we still have DL is because they'd have to think of new talents and glyphs to replace those that try to prop it up.

  13. #653
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    Drain Life always felt to me like it screamed "Follow the green beam to where I am and interupt me", same with MG and DS for that matter. But there's just something so OBVIOUS to the green beam of Drain Life that it's going to be a psychological effect on opponents to follow it and make sure you stop doing it.
    As if being a warlock was not enough of a big "come kill me" sign, they decide we need another.
    It's official, they hate warlocks.
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    Your forgot to include the part where we blame casuals for everything because blizzard is catering to casuals when casuals got jack squat for new content the entire expansion, like new dungeons and scenarios.
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  14. #654
    I am Murloc! Azutael's Avatar
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    Keep fel flame, remove KJC and come up with a new talent.

    I've watched some streams of alpha, and several have commented how "awkward" and weird it feels, to not have much to cast while moving, except for DoT's of course.
    I am definitively going to miss fel flame.

  15. #655
    I would agree about keeping Fel flame and just doing away with KJC. Fel flame just seems to vital as a resource generator.
    Last edited by Lucidious; 2014-06-07 at 08:31 PM.

  16. #656
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Sadmustache View Post
    Maybe I'm bit masochist, but I would also be fine even with current design. I like that you get punished when you make a bad call. Like you lose dps if you move badly on encounter.
    I'm fine with that to an extent, if I start casting a chaos bolt or shadowbolt and I need to move, wasting the cast time - fair enough - I lost a little dps and go to spamming FF.
    If I'm forced to move as part of the encounter and have nothing to spam inbetween it just feels icky, like you're being punished for messing up when sometimes the fight just dictates "you need to move now". Having NOTHING to cast feels like being interrupted, which in pve is usually reserved for you making a huge mistake like casting during thok / ironstar blowing. I don't think forced movement should be AS punishing as messing up on a fight mechanic.

    Just giving a button to spam is all I really want, I'd take Fel Flame as a talent over KJC (though even then, that feels lame since you're having to sacrifice a "real" talent for something I think should be baked into the base gameplay), or rather just have it back as base - they can do what they want with KJC after that, I'm happy with it being removed or nerfed to unusable, I think it's a bad talent from the get-go. Doesn't need to be great dps, but prevents you from feeling like you're silenced and completely useless during movement.

  17. #657
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Light movement seems fine, heavy doesn't. Most fights are light movement. Only a few are heavy. On those heavy movement fights, melee are very likely going to shine. They already did actually, but the community doesn't seem to realize. Rogue and Feral? Amazing on both Lei Shen and Garrosh. Absolutely amazing damage and utility. If most ranged are going to suck on heavy movement, maybe with a talent or spec to cope with it, I'd say that's a good thing because -and I say that as a rDPS- melee do need a niche, or more precise: keep their niche, being: the best single target DPS on the move. That'd include Ret, WW, and at least one DK DPS spec.
    I think that this is really the core of the problem for all classes/specs. As it stands for this tier, there were few fights where a melee was equal to a ranged, and fewer still where they were more desirable. As you and many others have pointed out, one of melee's strengths lies in being able to maintain rotation while moving. Blizzard then had two options to bring melee on par with ranged:

    1. Make more fights suited to a melee's toolkit (ie, bring melee up), or
    2. Reduce the toolkit of ranged (ie, bring ranged down).

    Seemingly they are going with route 2, and my greatest concern isn't in my raid spot being lost due to low DPS, but rather that I will be brought to the raid to turret.

    This is where I believe many will consider rerolling (I certainly am, to a melee of all things). My spot is still there, but my versatility is gone. I no longer get to do the fun jobs. I am now a turret. This wasn't the playstyle I signed up for when I rolled a warlock, nor is it why I earned my raid spot. Blizzard has nerfed fun for me, because they felt warlocks needed to be brought in line, and in classic Blizzard style they haven't brought others up but rather have brought us down (although the new Boomkins look great, why couldn't they take the time to do that for all DPS classes?). I know many people didn't like the MoP revamp, but I don't think anyone could argue that they succeeded in differentiating Mages and Warlocks, and that's something that sorely needed to happen. Now they're doing a double take and bringing the two classes closer together, and this is a big mistake IMO.

    TL;DR Removing the identity of being the caster class that can DPS on the move will hurt Warlocks and will cause people to stop playing the class, effectively undoing the good Blizzard did at the beginning of MoP.

  18. #658
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    since i dont have a max level warlock. besides movement while casting, whats the big deal about KJC?
    Most of us are actually fine with losing KJC and fully expected a nerf for WoD. It's been a very unstable talent for all of MoP.

    The problem is they're doing away with Fel Flame, and as such we're limited to very few spells while moving (Destruction is hurt the worst - we can only cast RoF and Conflagrate). What we want is having options while moving. Bringing Fel Flame back, in any incarnation really, is the easiest solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strepp View Post
    TL;DR Removing the identity of being the caster class that can DPS on the move will hurt Warlocks and will cause people to stop playing the class, effectively undoing the good Blizzard did at the beginning of MoP.
    That was never an identity for us.

  19. #659
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gihelle View Post
    That was never an identity for us.
    It was, for a few months. Not enough to really call it a staple identity feature imo though, especially since Shaman have had that trait for ages in a much cleaner way and hunters are regularly lorded as having a monopoly on that case.

    The only time KJC really felt warlock-y to me was when it had that huge speed decrease tied to it, it felt thematic having such a big drawback and it made using other abilities like burning rush or intelligent portal placement much more rewarding, and otherwise made you approach fights a little differently (I hope you remembered never to move before Blademaster's spin attack in HOF), or just limited the margin for error on fights where things needed to be avoided.

    It had interesting gameplay connotations then and I didn't mind it so much.

    CD based KJC was bad and probably will be bad, it was never used, even over the 1% dps increase (iirc) that AD was.
    Current free-form KJC is relatively new and I certainly don't like it, it removes thought from gameplay as opposed to adding or changing how you look at things. I have no qualms about it being changed back to unusable like it initially was or being axed altogether, but Fel Flame shouldn't be going regardless of what they do.

  20. #660
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    CD based KJC was bad and probably will be bad, it was never used, even over the 1% dps increase (iirc) that AD was.
    CD KJC only ever made it to patch notes, the outcry killed it before it even got onto a PTR build. Or are we talking the original on-use effect which went unused because the whole talent was just a mess in 5.0 anyway?

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