The Bard will be the next class in WoW. Here's why...

[Ielenia]

We would need more than a picture of someone playing a harp to prove they're accomplishing anything with said harp. I mean, there's an entire band in each of the Pandaria Shrines, but they're not using that music to hurt people.

There are people who sing music, and there are music that hurt or buff people. That alone is proof of concept enough that a bard-like class is possible in WoW

Warlocks have owned Soul-based magic since their inception.

which is part of the necromantic magic type

Hell, Death Knights don't even have soul-based magic despite being the embodiment of necromancy. That's the thing with WoW classes; They can cover parts of a theme without ever fully engulfing the entire theme.

And that is one of the things Teriz won't accept. In his opinion, if a class deals with demons, there can be absolutely no other classes that deal with demons, despite we having two classes that deal heavily in the Light. (priests and paladins)

Warlocks cover soul-based magic without raising the dead. (Soulstone and Haunt; Soulstone binds a soul to a stone so that it can return to it's body after death; Haunt infects a target with a ghostly soul.)

Those two, just the way you described, prove they are necromantic spells.

Death Knights cover disease and undeath without touching souls or minds. (Frost Fever, Blood Plague, Raise Dead/Ally; Frost Fever and Blood Plague cover disease, Raise Dead covers undeath, Raise Ally is a combat rez for game mechanics.)

Not quite...

Shadow Priests have a single disease. (Devouring Plague; A remnant, or perhaps a skill taught BY the Forsaken when they were still believed to only be Shadow Priests)

Being a 'remnant' means nothing. Many spells were removed over time. That one stayed, therefore it's part of the Priest's canon arsenal.

[Thimagryn]

Mistweaver had the same theme as the Brewmaster; Martial Arts and empowerment through brew.

Let's get things straight. I never said the Monk was a completely new invention, I said it brought new themes we have never seen to Warcraft, such as Mistweaving and Chi. So let's address what you've been saying.

Brewmasters practice a unique fighting style. They combine typical pandaren finesse and strength with the appearance of being drunk, stumbling apparently at random. When they sway to avoid a blow or swing a wild fist, their proficiency appears accidental.

This description ignores everything a Mistweaver does. This is a description of Brewmaster gameplay, not Mistweavers. Mistweaving utilizes Mists and Chi to heal. That would be a completely new theme brought to Warcraft. So who is the one ignoring facts here?

Even Shadow Spec for Priests has little relation to their main theme of using Holy magic and Healing. The idea is that they use Shadow because they balance Light and Dark, a concept which could not have been anticipated simply by basing it on existing knowledge. It is not derived from any source in Warcraft 3, since even Forest Troll Shadow Priests used Holy magic. The use of Shadow magic that had no ties to Necromancy, Demonology or Old Gods would have been a new concept brought to WoW.

Which proves my point - New concepts would be brought forth for any playable class concept. This includes Demon Hunters and Bards. There is no reason why any class concept should be scrutinized for not having an existing NPC parallel to be based off of, or because they're too narrow and would have immediate overlap with any existing class.

Most of the discussion on new classes has been narrowly focused on one aspect, which would be no different than focusing on Paladin/Priest while ignoring Protection and Shadow Specs. Of course you could make a strong argument that Demon Hunters and Warlocks are too similar, you would be ignoring the obvious differences between the two in the process. Nothing exists to clearly define the Demon Hunter separately from Warlocks, yet.

[hrugner]

We would need more than a picture of someone playing a harp to prove they're accomplishing anything with said harp. I mean, there's an entire band in each of the Pandaria Shrines, but they're not using that music to hurt people.

The Dwarven Fiddler remains the only bard in game, as he's the only one who uses his music to do anything combat related. The others, including the screenshot as she doesn't appear to be in combat, are just playing music.

If you feel that the game needs to have an entirely fleshed out bard character for them to ever appear in game, then there's no way to progress from not appearing in the game to appearing in the game. By including an increasing amount of musical npcs with instruments suited to their culture, Blizzard sets up a culture where a bard wouldn't seem out of place.

While this could just as easily be progress toward musical emotes and novelty items similar to those that appear in other games (and WoW in the form of flutes and drums), it could also be used to justify other things.

So, enough to work with; more than enough to show that musicians are part of many cultures, and we know that some music has power in WoW. With items around like the haunted war drums showing instruments can be important and imbued with power, and the picolo of flaming fire that shows that music can compel others to do something, it isn't too far to see that a bard class is a possibility.

So, while it isn't much, it's more than monks had before their introduction by a long shot.

[Ielenia]

Again, as I said earlier, POSSIBLE? Yes, of course it's POSSIBLE. LIKELY, however, it is not.

Want a very bard-like character in WoW? Lorewalker Cho.

As we've proven time and time again, Priests do not deal as heavily in the Light as you seem to think, as noted by the Shadow side of Priesthood. Paladins are tied to Light and Light only; Priests are more based on Faith. Faith in the Light and Faith in the Shadow. Their theme is Faith. Paladins theme is Light. Warlocks theme is Demons, as is Demon Hunters.

The theme of both Priests and Paladins is the Light. It does not matter if each class approaches the 'Light' in different ways or not. Both are about the Light. Same goes for Warlock and DH.

Soul Reaper - Strikes an enemy for 130% weapon damage and afflicts the target with Soul Reaper. Does not claim to affect the soul.
Mind Freeze - Smash the target's mind with cold. Frost, not psiionic.

Soul Reaper. It's a strike on the soul.
Mind Freeze: Smash the target's mind. Mind. Psionic.

And it being a disease does not magically make it necromancy. With no other ties to necromancy, the Shadow Priest remains a being of psiionic power.

Devouring Plague is not the only tie to necromancy.

But Bards are still a long shot if you ask me.

Nowhere near the 'long shot' you think it is. The Lorewalkers are very, very close to the definition of 'bards' as we got, right now. They pretty much embody all the lore-keeper part of the Bard. And Lorewalker Cho can sing.

[Monstercloud]

Indeed it is. But it does not make Warlocks into Necromancers; It proves that soul-based magic can be covered in many different ways. In WoW, soul-based magic is covered through Demon magic.

There's no such thing as "Soul-based magic"

As we've proven time and time again, Priests do not deal as heavily in the Light as you seem to think, as noted by the Shadow side of Priesthood. Paladins are tied to Light and Light only; Priests are more based on Faith. Faith in the Light and Faith in the Shadow. Their theme is Faith. Paladins theme is Light. Warlocks theme is Demons, as is Demon Hunters.

That's the difference.

That's some heavy conjecture. Paladins have faith too, and their faith is rigorous and unerring compared to priests. One of the warlocks themes is demons... I don't know why you people think that all classes only have 1 theme that encompasses them entirely. Some hunters are experts with handling beasts, others are experts at firearms or their bow. One theme of rogues is poisons, another is being quick and agile in combat. Druids either embrace the wild and go for a feral angle, or are more in touch with nature, and go for a healing theme or "moon" theme..

Again; The way they work in WoW is through Demon magic. Even Death Knights do not have soul-based spells.

Once again...

No such thing as "Soul-based spells." There's enough examples what constitutes as necromancy for anything to dealing with souls with arcane magic to include Drain Souls as a part of necromancy.

Soul Reaper - Strikes an enemy for 130% weapon damage and afflicts the target with Soul Reaper. Does not claim to affect the soul.

.

Pretty sure if a soul is getting reaped, the soul is affected.

[Thimagryn]

Indeed it is. But it does not make Warlocks into Necromancers; It proves that soul-based magic can be covered in many different ways. In WoW, soul-based magic is covered through Demon magic.

Early in Warcraft's lore, Warlocks and Necromancy went hand in hand. Gul'dan was the first Warlock, and Kil'Jaedan taught him his craft, of which the use of Necromancy was 'reopened'. Who was it who instilled the original Death Knights with necromantic powers? Gul'dan. Who is it that granted Ner'zhul the powers of the Lich King? Kil'Jaedan.

When it comes down to it, the only real separation is through gameplay. The themes are separated just enough so that there is room for 2 separate classes rather than one. This is exactly how Paladins came into play, originally having been part of the Priests/Clerics of Northshire Abbey.

As we've proven time and time again, Priests do not deal as heavily in the Light as you seem to think, as noted by the Shadow side of Priesthood. Paladins are tied to Light and Light only; Priests are more based on Faith. Faith in the Light and Faith in the Shadow. Their theme is Faith. Paladins theme is Light. Warlocks theme is Demons, as is Demon Hunters.

Priests having Shadow is simply an invention of WoW to separate them further from Paladins. If you look at all Shadow Priest in Warcraft 3, they all used Holy magic. If you look at examples of Priests in WoW even, there were no Shadow Priests until the Scarlet Onslaught in Wrath. It was a new concept that was brought to make Priests distinct, absolutely unsourced from anything prior.

So basically if you're requiring Bards or any class to be sourced from existing material, you're argument would mean Priests should not have Shadow magic at all because there was no existing material that showed they could use it. This means Paladins would have immediate overlap with Priests. Do you see how your argument runs thin when we stick to 'what we know'?

[Ielenia]

For a musician, he seems quite unwilling to make music.

Source of Lorewalker singing or it didn't happen.

He never ever said he doesn't like making music. And he even sings the Ballad of Liu Lang for this achievement.

Mind Freeze. As it says before, Smash the target's mind with cold.

Nice try. But we're talking magic type, not magic element. Spells that deal with the mind are psyonic. Fear and Mind Freeze are psyonic spells.

Vampiric Touch is similar to Drain Life; Shadow magic, not necromancy. It involves no disease, no undeath.
Vampiric Embrace is also Shadow magic, not necromancy. Involves no disease, no undeath.

No disease, but does deal with necromancy for draining a target's life. You need to read more about necromancy in role-playing games.

[Deleted]

Eh, can't really see that happening.

[Thimagryn]

Indeed, it was not until they decided the Undead should have Priests that they gave Priests the Shadow side of things. And just as easily as you can say "They only gave Priests Shadow so they could be different from Paladins," I can say "They gave Priests Shadow because Undead had faith in the Forgotton Shadow." Equally true.

Isn't that Headcanon? No spec is developed because of any one race. You seem to derive conclusions based on observation rather than design philosophy. Shadow was designed as a part of the Priest class, and therefore applies equally to all Priests. Priests even had unique racial abilities like Devouring Plague and Star Shards, so if you were to make any hint at Forsaken getting anything tailored to them, it would be the fact they used Diseases, not that they used Shadow. Every race can use Shadow.

Regardless of the reasoning, however, Priests had that option available to them. Paladins did not. Paladins were determined from the start to have been faithful only to the Light, as a force of righteous reckoning. Which does not fit the Forgotten Shadow, which is entirely based on preserving oneself.

You can't dismiss it so easily. The entire point you have been making against any class potentially similar to existing ones is that there are no distinction. That distinction comes from new concepts inserted into classes upon implemenation. We know Paladins are different mechanically and thematically from Priests because they GAVE Priests the use of Shadow magic. Priests and Paladins share the same faith regardless, as explained through Blood Elf, Draenei and Taurens. They derive the powers from the same source for the same reasons, the only difference being that Paladins wear armor and fight in melee whereas Priests do not. The fact that they use Shadow magic is superfluous to lore, since it does not inhabit any thematic difference in their faith to the Holy Light/Sun/Naaru.

Demon Hunters do not have the option to not hunt Demons. It's in their name.

Hunters seem to do plenty of things other than Hunt.

Incorrect. Basically what I'm saying is Priests are based on Priests from Warcraft III, and expanded upon to include more Faiths. Demon Hunters, if they are based on Demon Hunters from Warcraft III (Which is what everyone wants), will NEED to be based on the idea fighting Demons with Demonic magic. Which they can't as Warlocks already cover Demonic magic.

Yet you are scrutinizing Demon Hunters as if they can not be expanded upon. You just said Priest class is okay because it expanded a concept that would have overlapped, but in the case of Demon Hunters they can't be expanded? Why?

If it was explained clearly that the method of using Demonic Magic was indeed a different method or source of power, it would be all that was needed to explain why your Demon Hunter class isn't summoning demons or casting curses and afflictions. Right now, it doesn't exist, because the Demon Hunter origins and methods are wrapped in complete mystery. Since we know they're mysterious, how is it logical that differences could not be epxlained?

As I've already said, Bards CAN exist. They simply have no starting point. That doesn't prevent them from existing; They just need more work than something that does already exist.

Yeah, but you're also being an unimaginative hardass considering your criteria for any class to work is to have a 100% fully functional example from Warcraft 3 or WoW NPCs. It's a requirement that fails to work against 90% of the classes in WoW, considering every class has brought new concepts and twists on every Unit or Hero it was based on.

[Ielenia]

Never saw that, but in the comments of that achievement:

Which means nothing. Lorewalker still sings the Ballad, and he happily does so.

Fear affects the mind, yes. Mind Freeze is an assault of cold magic on the mind; It doesn't actually affect the mind any more than a Frost Fever aimed at someone's head.

Attacking the brain is not the same as attacking the mind. The spell says "mind" in both its name and tooltip.

It's like a brain freeze. The cause is not an attack on your mind;

No, it is an attack on your mind. The spell's name and tooltip both say so.

WoW is not the exact same as all other roleplaying games. They can, and all do, deviate in their definitions.
Warlocks can drain a target's life through shadow magic. So too can Shadow Priests. Involves no necromancy.

Which are still necromancy. That's necromancy in RPGs. Manipulating the dead and draining the life of the living.

- - - Updated - - -

As I've already said, Bards CAN exist. They simply have no starting point. That doesn't prevent them from existing; They just need more work than something that does already exist.

The Lorewalkers in Pandaria make for a pretty good starting point, does it not? Even the Explorer's League for the Alliance and the Reliquary for the Horde made some decent starting points.

[AzazeltheRuthless]

Early in Warcraft's lore, Warlocks and Necromancy went hand in hand. Gul'dan was the first Warlock, and Kil'Jaedan taught him his craft, of which the use of Necromancy was 'reopened'. Who was it who instilled the original Death Knights with necromantic powers? Gul'dan. Who is it that granted Ner'zhul the powers of the Lich King? Kil'Jaedan.

When it comes down to it, the only real separation is through gameplay. The themes are separated just enough so that there is room for 2 separate classes rather than one. This is exactly how Paladins came into play, originally having been part of the Priests/Clerics of Northshire Abbey.



Priests having Shadow is simply an invention of WoW to separate them further from Paladins. If you look at all Shadow Priest in Warcraft 3, they all used Holy magic. If you look at examples of Priests in WoW even, there were no Shadow Priests until the Scarlet Onslaught in Wrath. It was a new concept that was brought to make Priests distinct, absolutely unsourced from anything prior.

So basically if you're requiring Bards or any class to be sourced from existing material, you're argument would mean Priests should not have Shadow magic at all because there was no existing material that showed they could use it. This means Paladins would have immediate overlap with Priests. Do you see how your argument runs thin when we stick to 'what we know'?

Not disagreeing with you on anything, but just wanted to add in something about Paladins. You can call them all being about the "light" your forgetting to take the race aspect into a lot of the game as well. Blood Elf Paladins, do not have faith in the light, they channel their power through the Sunwell, and in actual lore terms are Blood Knights. In reality some due chose to have "Faith" but it's only a minor thing for the most part, they are just channeling a spell in the end that happens to be light-based. Race and the class do sometimes adjust the class a tiny bit hence why their are races that don't have certain classes because it is against their beliefs like Tauren Rogues or Warlocks..

As for Bards...ehh....doesn't seem to feel very WoW-like, but hey, Blizzard tends to do somethings off the wall at times. The only reason I think it won't happen, is Blizzard played a giant April Fools Joke about bringing the Bard Class around a few years ago. If they thought it was something to laugh at, why would they suddenly get serious about it.

IMO even though many do have points about Demon Hunters already sort of being in the game, I still think its most likely. Blizzard has a man-crush for Illidan and so does most of the player community. He's really the only Hero class left that hasn't been directly in the game. Blizzard has made hints, that it is possible Illidan isn't dead and may appear in the game again and a class trainer seems like a very likely thing for them to do, specially when they decide to address the Burning Legion again, which as most of you know wasn't exactly put to bed in Burning Crusader.

[Thimagryn]

Not disagreeing with you on anything, but just wanted to add in something about Paladins. You can call them all being about the "light" your forgetting to take the race aspect into a lot of the game as well. Blood Elf Paladins, do not have faith in the light, they channel their power through the Sunwell, and in actual lore terms are Blood Knights. In reality some due chose to have "Faith" but it's only a minor thing for the most part, they are just channeling a spell in the end that happens to be light-based. Race and the class do sometimes adjust the class a tiny bit hence why their are races that don't have certain classes because it is against their beliefs like Tauren Rogues or Warlocks..

What's important to not the fact that Paladins of all races use the same faith, but that Paladins and Priests use the same faith.

Blood Elf Paladins may be sourcing their 'light' from the Sunwell, but so are Blood Elf Priests. Tauren Sunwalkers draw from the sun, just as Tauren Seers (Priests) do. Draenei derive their magic from the teachings of the naaru, which again applies to both their Paladins and Priests. That is the point that I am making, that there is no difference between these two classes from a faith perspective.

- - - Updated - - -

Incorrect. It was confirmed that in Vanilla WoW, all Forsaken Priests were Shadow Priests. This has been expanded over the years to allow Forsaken Priests to also be the other kinds, but at the start it was not headcanon that all Shadow Priests were Forsaken and all Forsaken Priests were Shadow.

It was confirmed that Forsaken Priests could use Holy magic. Prior to that, it was assumed that they used Shadow to heal.

Q: When undead use or are healed by the Holy Light, does it cause them any actual damage or harm, or does it only cause them pain (in addition to the intended effects of the spell)?

A: Channeling the Light in any way, or receiving healing from the Light, only causes pain. Forsaken priests do not disintegrate or explode from channeling the Light for an extended period of time… though they may wish they would.

Since we know Forsaken CAN use the light, it would explain away your insistence that they are all Shadow Priests.

The fact that they use Shadow magic immediately differentiates them from Paladins, and nothing inhibited Priests from using Shadow magic. It did, however, inhibit Paladins who, again, are all about righteous retribution, not preserving oneself as the faith in the Forgotten Shadow requires.

Shadow Magic doesn't explain the fact that you are using Faith as a reason of distinction between Paladins and Priests, despite the continued fact they both derive powers from the same Faiths. The only difference is that Priests are open to the added knowledge of Shadow.

So how is this different than Demon Hunters and Warlocks being able to use Demonic Magic, while Warlocks Summon and Demon Hunters would have other themes such as Spellbreaking or Vengeance?

Paladins MUST be faithful ONLY to the Light, Priests can CHOOSE their faith

Headcanon. Shadow isn't a different faith, it's a counterpart to the core faith. That's explicitly stated in the lore for Shadow Priests. The idea is that to better understand the Light and Life, you must understand the balance of Darkness and Death. Priests aren't changing or choosing their faiths. These are still the exact same faiths being used by Paladins. The difference is the Paladin focuses on martial aspects while Priests focus on the spiritual. That is literally the only difference between these two classes in lore.

They hunt many things. If they were "Animal Hunters" you'd have a point.

And yet they do many things besides Hunt. This is a case of arguing semantics, of which you are using a double standard against an existing class.

Because they still need to stay true to their demonic magic use, which is covered by Warlocks. They need to stay true to their agile melee weapon abilities, which Rogues cover. They cannot without overlapping heavily.

Warlocks never had exclusive use over Demonic Magic, otherwise the Demon Hunter class would have effectively been called 'Warlock' in Warcraft 3. You see how silly arguing semantics is?

There is no other source of power for Demonic Magic. It all comes from Fel and Arcane, both of which are covered by Warlocks with the introduction of green fire.

There are as many sources as Blizzard wishes to create.

Shadow magic was only derived from Necromancy and Demonology in all previous states of Warcraft. Again, Priest Shadow magic was invented purely in WoW for Priests to differentiate them from Paladins. You can't say there are no other sources of Demonic magic when you're only basing it on current assumed knowledge. You are making the argument that no new source could be invented, and that's a fallacy you're consistently making.

Incorrect. My criteria is a decent starting point that doesn't overlap with other classes, and a reason for the class to exist. Starting points usually point back to Warcraft III (But don't have to), and reasons for the class to exist include but are not limited to gameplay aspects, missing fighting techniques, or to fill gaps in lore.

Your reasons are always made in retrospect. The crux of your argument is 'It can't exist until it exists'.

How could you explain the inclusion of Mistweaving if your entire criteria for a new class was that it had to be based on existing material with no deviation? I'm saying this because you seem to be rigidly against the idea that Demon Hunters get any expanded lore that makes them distinct from Warlocks.

[Ielenia]

Have yet to see proof.

I linked you the freaking achievement. But if you really want to see undeniable proof, here is the video proof!! No more excuses from you, now.

Citation needed.

Here's your 'citation', now stop trying to play dumb.

No, it does not. Despite Lorewalker Cho boring me to death, he was weak and couldn't defend himself from anything.

So your denials base on your own opinions (Cho boring you), and because you never saw him fight, which means nothing, since a bard that travels around the world would know how to defend himself?

The Reliquary appeared rather conveniently at the same time as Archaeology. Almost as if they were trying to say the Reliquary was filled with Archaeologists, just like the Explorer's League. They're not Bards.

They're not all bards, no. But they're a good starting point because the Reliquary was created as a horde-version of the Explorer's League, and the Explorer's League is not just about archaeology. It's about lore as well.

[Ielenia]

See, was that so hard?
Although his song STILL doesn't do anything, so your proof still doesn't do anything. He's just singing, just like the band in the shrines. It's not magic. It doesn't hurt, heal, buff, anything. Not a bard.

Stop being obtuse. Lorewalkers are keepers of lore, just like Bards are also known for. Lorewalker Cho sings a ballad about a hero, which is another thing Bards are known to do. And World of Warcraft has song-based spells.

Not a citation for "Attacking the brain is not the same as attacking the mind."

Ugh. Brain is physical, mind is mental. It's not hard to search for things like that, yourself, instead of playing dumb, you know?

Lorewalker Cho, during the quest chain with the Seer.

And what's the point in that quote?

How many times must I repeat "Talking/Singing/Music is not a starting point for a Bard."
If their words/music doesn't actually do anything, it proves nothing. Hell, my character can talk, is that proof of a Bard? In that case, every non-mute is a Bard and we have no need for the class.

You love to be obtuse and playing stupid, don't you? We have 'lore keepers', we have spells that are cast by singing. All this is proof of concept that a bard class is very possible.

[BedlamBros]

Blizzard dev said that Bards are too "soft" for WoW.

I agree. They don't fit the game at all.

[AzazeltheRuthless]

Again; You're using a different headcanon to explain away a non-headcanon.

Forsaken Priests COULD NOT heal lore-wise in Vanilla. That was only for gameplay. Forsaken Priests in Vanilla were all Shadow. People presumed that meant their healing specs, lore-wise, were Shadow. In truth, no Forsaken Priest had a healing spec lore-wise. They were all Shadow.



Because they DON'T derive their power from the same faiths. Paladins derive it only from Light, Priests derive it from Light and Shadow. What is so hard to understand about this? Paladins DO NOT and CAN NOT have faith in the Shadow.

Warlocks and Demon Hunters would still derive their power from the same places: Arcane and Fel.



Does it make sense for a Hunter to do something other than hunt? Of course. Does it make sense for a Demon Hunter to do something other than hunt demons? Of course. Does it make sense for a Demon Hunter to never hunt demons? No.

So despite learning all this information about demons, seeing dozens of different types, and all Demons having some form of existance with the Legion, there must be a different source of demon magic. You realize how silly you sound, right?

Even if there was another source that Blizzard pulled out of their asses to make Demon Hunters exist, Demon Hunters absorbed their original power from the Legion. Which has been confirmed to be Fel magic. So it STILL wouldn't make sense.

Actually, I'm making the argument that Demon Hunters used demons of the Legion, which we already know use Fel magic as their source, to empower themselves. Meaning, their source is Fel magic. We can already confirm that based on what we know of Demon Hunters. You're simply assuming Blizzard will make something new, which is very, very silly. Because if I wanted to, I could say Blizzard will make Demon Hunters not exist tomorrow, and it'll have just as much backing it as your claim that Blizzard will just make a new source of Fel magic.

For the third time in the past two pages, I have never once said it had to be based on existing material with no deviation. What I AM saying is, we know ENOUGH about Demon Hunters to pin them where they belong. We know they use demons of the Legion to empower themselves, and we know demons of the Legion are empowered by Fel magic. We know they fight with two weapons; Warglaives specifically, of which many classes in game today can wield a la Warglaives of Azzinoth. We know their starting point (Illidan in Warcraft III) has been wholly absorbed into other classes. We know they have no reason to exist other than a vocal minority demanding it, as proven by many, many, MANY threads trying to make Demon Hunters work, and NOT A SINGLE ONE SUCCEEDING SO FAR.

As I said above, Blood Elf Paladins do not have faith at all in the light, actually most don't even believe it exists. They use magic to corrupt their powers and castit with a light attunement, basically they are tank mages weaving a spell, and it specifically states in their lore that they do not have faith in the light. This is why I was saying the race has to be taken into effect as well, Blood Elves derive all their power from the Sunwell and that is about all they care about, and it does state in their lore that they don't have faith or worship anything.

Also Warlocks don't wield Arcane magic, actually it specifically states in their lore a lot of them use to be Arcanists who decided instead to wield shadow, fire, and fel magic. Warlocks have no relation with any of their tools and basically only strive for power. They prefer to fight the demon using their own powers against them.

Since you seem to be stuck on the beliefs of classes, Warlocks see demons as pawns and tools they an use for whatever purpose they deem necessary. Hence why they aren't allowed to name their demons because they don't care about them, they only see them as slaves. Demon Hunters on the other hand seek solely to destroy and annihilate demons and do use their powers to augment their abilities, but would never use one as a tool. Demon Hunters also wield Arcane Magic which Warlocks don't at all, they never use Shadow-based abilities. Their energy is chaos energy which they get by basically sapping the power from demons, which is why they themselves slowly start turning demonic in apperance, typically they use it to augment their weapons. A lot of their power, is put into their glaives to wield different abilities.

Now I"m not saying that Blizzard didn't use their abilities and give them to other classes which they obviously did, they can easily remove them if they decided Demon Hunter was a viable class to add to the game. I do think Illidan will appear in the game again and I do imagine Blizzard will try and do fan service to that by bringing in Demon Hunter someway, now lore wise one major thing people forget is all Demon Hunters are all Elves, either Night or Blood. Could that be something they work in possibly...

I do think it would be interesting to go more race specific clases which you could see in ways such as Goblins and Gnomes getting Tinkerer, Night Elf and Blood Elf getting Demon Hunter etc....and keep the balance that way.

I do doubt Bard will ever be put into the game as I said before, the only time Blizzard ever talked about a Bard was as an April Fools Joke. If they think the only way to discuss it as a viable class is by playing a giant prank on everybody and laughing at it...really hurts its credibility.

[Ielenia]

And this is not one of them. Lorewalker Cho is not a bard. Stop making comparisons that don't exist.

I never claimed he is a bard. I said he is the closest thing to a bard in WoW!! He's a lore keeper, and he sings ballads about heroes!!

Burden of proof and all that. And that has nothing to do with WoW, nor it's spell effects.
If you can't prove that a spell effect on the MIND is different than one on the BRAIN in WoW, then you cannot prove that spell is not simply cast on the target's brain. In which case, you cannot prove it is a mind spell. End of story.

So, there's no difference, to you, between psyonic and physical effects? 'Psyonic' effects affect the mind. And 'psyonic' is not shadow-based magic. It has no element to it. So it could be a cold spell, or fire spell, or holy spell, or shadow spell...

He, himself, says he is just a storyteller. Not an adventurer, or a combat master, nor a bard. He's a storyteller. All throughout Pandaria he avoids combat. All throughout Pandaria he says he uses "a quill in place of a sword." He's a fucking PACIFIST.

Which doesn't prove there are not adventurer storytellers. Lorewalker Cho being a, as you put it, 'pacifist', does not mean other storytellers would not feel the thirst for adventure. After all, adventures can make for great stories.

None of the lorewalkers use their words to cast spells, none of the spells cast by singing include lore. They are not proofs of concept for an idea that is not related to it.

Lorewalkers are lore keepers and sing. They travel around. And there are spells that are cast by singing. Go read the definition of "proof of concept" before trying to say anything again, please.

[echoSAW]

I would play a bard only if I could go completely ridiculous with it. I'm talking Tiny Tim or Barry Gibb falsetto voice, those ridiculous curly-toed boots and ukulele ridiculous. I must also be able to prance around singing the praises of Brave Sir Robin.

Edit: Just remembered we already have possible class-specific items in game; Piccolo of the Flaming Fire and Woollies of the Prancing Minstrel. We're halfway there!

[Monstercloud]

Magic involving souls is heavily involved in WoW, so yes there is. Demons used to require a Soul shard, which was earned through Drain Soul, to summon them. Soulstones and Healthstones were created from Soul Shards, as were Fire and Spellstones. (RIP) They're still used by the Affliction spec as their secondary resource, for Soulburn.

To say no soul-based magic exists is a foolish claim.

No, there's no "Soul-based Magic". Using souls as a catalyst or reagent does not make it "Soul-based", it simply means it's a part of a spell. It's a spell that requires a soul. No where has there ever been talk of "Soul magic" even as a subschool of necromancy. All magic is either divine or arcane based. There is no such thing as "Soul Magic". You are literally the first person to ever mention such nonsense as "soul magic".

Of course Paladins have faith. Druids have faith as well. And Shaman. But it's not what their class idea is based on. Paladins are based on righteous retribution through the Light. Druids are based on Nature; The plants and the animals included. Animal spirits in WoW are considered Nature Spirits. Shamans are based on serving the Elements and the Ancestors.

Paladins and Priests require faith because their power is from a more or less intangible source. Druids and Shaman don't need faith, as all their nature-related stuff is tangible... do you understand what faith means? If you completely ignore the different specializations, yes you can just say "Nature" or "Elements" to describe a class, but taking in the specializations into consideration (which I have no idea why you wouldn't), then the themes become more diverse.

Warlock by itself doesn't inherently bring "Demons" to mind. Three specializations, one of them is demons. One of them has to do with magical afflictions, and the other has to do with, as lore would describe it, "harness the shadows into bolts of incendiary energy". Neither have to do with demons or souls. It's necromancy.

What a coincidence, the class based on undeath has a spell related to a dead character being brought back to life. Whodathunk.

Point is genius, it's still working with souls. Arguing that souls and spirits are different is semantics.

-snip-

At this point I'm ignoring any further discussion of "Soul-based magic". It's a made up term. It's Necromancy. Deal with it.

Pretty sure when I execute someone, they die. Yet Execute does not instantly kill my target, it just does damage.

Yeah no, you're not going to use a different ability that acts like Soul Reaper as your counter point. Soul Reaper is a execute-like ability. It is not execute.



By the way mods, I'm not sure what else you qualify as "Bickering", but this thread is it...

[Thimagryn]

Again; You're using a different headcanon to explain away a non-headcanon.

Forsaken Priests COULD NOT heal lore-wise in Vanilla. That was only for gameplay. Forsaken Priests in Vanilla were all Shadow. People presumed that meant their healing specs, lore-wise, were Shadow. In truth, no Forsaken Priest had a healing spec lore-wise. They were all Shadow.

There was no lore stating Forsaken Priests in Vanilla were all Shadow, or that they could not use Holy magic. Again, that is headcanon used to explain what was not being officially stated. Absence of lore is not evidence of the contrary, just like we can't say 'Night Elves can't be Mages', which would have been true in Vanilla just as well.

Because they DON'T derive their power from the same faiths. Paladins derive it only from Light, Priests derive it from Light and Shadow. What is so hard to understand about this? Paladins DO NOT and CAN NOT have faith in the Shadow.

Shadow is not a faith separate from the Light, unless you are talking about an entirely different faith altogether. Paladins derive from the same source as every Priest of the same race. It's not a case of understanding, it's a case of what words you're using and confusing the meaning with your intent.

I can understand that you mean that Priests use Shadow magic which is beyond what Paladins do, but that's not 'FAITH'. If anything, that is simply a theme and game mechanic that is unique to Priests. The problem for you is without a clear line of separation, you can't easily distinguish the two classes without pointing at specific game and theme mechanics, as their Lore indicates they draw from the same source with no true distinguishing differences. The use of 'Mind Control' is no different than a Paladin using a Shield whereas a Priest can not. You can't use those differences to explain away the fact they are still followers of their faith.

Warlocks and Demon Hunters would still derive their power from the same places: Arcane and Fel.

Which we should establish that there is no exclusivity for Warlocks in this regard. There is a common theme of using Fel magic. It is still highly plausible and likely for a Demon Hunter class to use Arcane and Fel magic differently than a Warlock (who doesn't actually use Arcane).

Does it make sense for a Hunter to do something other than hunt? Of course. Does it make sense for a Demon Hunter to do something other than hunt demons? Of course. Does it make sense for a Demon Hunter to never hunt demons? No.

So what did you prove by stating this? You're just reinforcing the benefits of having a Demon Hunter, whose identity would be at its core a hunter-of-demons. It doesn't limit them to this, so why is it a problem again?

It's not semantics, you're simply being obtuse. I mean, they COULD have called Archmage and Sorceress and Blood Mage just Mages and had them have all different abilities in Warcraft III, yet it's undeniable that all three were absorbed into the Mage class in WoW. They COULD have called the Priestess of the Moon, Druid of the Talon, Keeper of the Grove, and Druid of the Claw units Druids, yet it's undeniable those units were absorbed into the Druid class in WoW.

No, it's not undeniable. That's the issue we're dealing with right now.

The Priest had Vampiric themes, Death magic and even Diseases. That's a strong case to give them a full-on Necromancy theme. Even then, it is not undeniable that Death Knights or Necromancers be folded into a Priest class. Again, you're only making a case against Death Knights and Monks by using your examples. Brewmasters having Storm Earth and Fire would get them absorbed into Shamans if we were using your example.

They could have called the Demon Hunter, Dreadlord, and Infernal units Warlocks, but it's undeniable those units were absorbed into the Warlock class. Simple as that.

The Demon Hunter is also shared by the Rogue and Priest. Dreadlord by the Death Knight and Druid (Hibernate). It doesn't help your case that you are trying to prove Warlocks have dominion over the DH or Dreadlord class in all themes and aspects. The fact remains, if there is enough plausibility to build a separate identity out of the DH (ie. Slayer based on Exotic fighting style and Spellbreaking, and a DH spec) then it could well be possible and likely to happen.

we know ENOUGH about Demon Hunters to pin them where they belong

And we knew enough of the Death Knights to tell us they are eternal champions of the Scourge, and followers of the Lich King. There was NO lore that would have hinted that they could be come playable by the Alliance and Horde, which exactly mirrors the current Demon Hunter situation. If DK's could have become playable, then so can DH.