Karabor and Bladespire are no longer our Capital hubs.

[Yarathir]

If the forum is overwhelmingly negative about the change then...

It means everyone is just a hater who has nothing better to do than to shit on poor, distraught, unfortunate Blizzard.

[Sinryu]

A change for the better imo, with no flying, I wouldn't like to have faction hub in the middle of nowhere, even if that place is the most dangerous place in the continent. It makes sense to have both major city close by like in MoP, having them near Ashran is even better has it will drive people to go there by instinct. I'm not a pvp player, but Ashran has my attention for some reason. Likewise, if Timeless Isle could have been in between both faction shrines, it would have been a much more interesting place to get. I mostly never went there again because of the travel time. With no flying, imagine how empty Ashran would get after a month.

Also, don't judge the faction hubs by their current look, if they just changed their minds about it, the cities are mostlikely placeholders that will be replaced with a much more interesting look and layout.

Also, I understand alliance players to be sad about the lost of Karabor, on the other end, it doesn't mean Karabor will be left empty. It opens it up for daily hubs and things like that.

Has the opposite effect on me...i have never been interested in pvp, and never found it fun...originally when i heard about ashran i thought "Great, a never-ending wintergrasp..." (disappointment) and i was actively going to avoid that zone at all costs....NOW in order to do that and not gimp myself, i have to play a mage again...and i was so enjoying a melee class

[Xayl1]

It was announced at freaking Blizzcon. It doesn't get more official than that. We are not talking about some minor feature that was mentioned offhand in a forum post or tweet.

By your 'logic', garrisons, character models and the entirety of Draenor could be canned because Blizzard never actually promised anything, did they?

yes actually. every single one of those things could have been scrapped for whatever reason like so many other things have and in the future will be it's the nature of a development cycle.Now I'm not going to say people aren't entitled to be upset about the faction bases not being in Bladespire or Karabor because those particular cities are extremely awesome and I myself am disappointed but can we all just stop pretending that every thing they share is etched in stone and blood and sworn too truth in front of all that is holy?I mean she changes sometimes we aren't being tricked or lied to or any dumb shit like that they just happened to decide they like a particular direction better.

[Immitis]

A change for the better imo, with no flying, I wouldn't like to have faction hub in the middle of nowhere

so you obviously dont know what you're talking about.

how is an island in the middle of nowhere more out in the middle of nowhere than a city on the actual continent thats actually closer to all the raids and dungeons AND is right next to our garrisons which is basically a quest hub of itself?

[Kelimbror]

Ashran is even better has it will drive people to go there by instinct

That's funny...most people who utterly detest PvP aren't going to suddenly think it's a grand idea b/c they are forced to do it. That's illogical. Hey guys, the government has decided that the nutritional value of feces is too good to pass up. We're going to make sure your fridge is always filled with it so your instincts to eat real food that tastes good and isn't poop will suddenly shift and you'll see the wonder of poop cola.

[deadman1]

Yes. They could, because things don't always go according to plan.
Blizzard also planned for an Abyssal Maw raid at the Cata announcement Blizzcon. And for us putting an end to Garrosh at the MoP announcement Blizzcon. Blizzard is a game company, not a prophetic seer, they announce their intentions and sometimes they change their minds or run into difficulties and are forced to compromise.

But this isn't something that is halted by dev time or anything, its just a bad decision.

Also, we did put and end to garrosh ... so ... just because he isn't dead doesn't mean that his current reign wasn't ended.

[Serenais]

Also, don't judge the faction hubs by their current look, if they just changed their minds about it, the cities are mostlikely placeholders that will be replaced with a much more interesting look and layout.

That still means redoing third of Ashran, which will force the expansion to come out even later - and it still won't aleviate that the zone is a mudhole. Not exactly appealing to most people.

Also, I understand alliance players to be sad about the lost of Karabor, on the other end, it doesn't mean Karabor will be left empty. It opens it up for daily hubs and things like that.

Karabor might not be empty, but the change strongly implies that what could be there simply won't. Karabor was, per information on Blizzcon, designed as a faction hub, meaning it is WAY oversized for a quest hub - that implies parts of Karabor be simply empty, unaccessible or filled with mobs with no real purpose.
Karabor won't be empty. It will be rendered meaningless, or worse - a sore reminder of what could've been.
I recall Akama saying something on that matter in the Black Temple trailer.

[dd614]

Because they are LIARS.

They Lied about flying mounts.
They've lied about questing being epic, verified by their own MvPs.
Now they've lied about this.

How many more lies do they need to tell before people start holding them accountable?

Quoted for truth. This is a real kick in the teeth. I can only wonder what else they will cut or change; nothing positive ever seems to come out of it.

[Hitei]

But this isn't something that is halted by dev time or anything, its just a bad decision.

Also, we did put and end to garrosh ... so ... just because he isn't dead doesn't mean that his current reign wasn't ended.

He traded a small powerful orc force for the force of the united orc clans and time to prepare and equip them.
That's not even close to "ending".

[Yarathir]

But this isn't something that is halted by dev time or anything, its just a bad decision.

Also, we did put and end to garrosh ... so ... just because he isn't dead doesn't mean that his current reign wasn't ended.

This. Karabor is there, many people prefer it, going by how this "change" was received, even before it's on the frontpage and well-known. There is no reason for them to do this. Also, a company that literally can't wait to start letting people pre-order long before alpha was even playable, a pre-order page with a list of features, they don't get to complain or feel bad when people are upset that they didn't make good on their promises/claims. Especially when there is no valid reason for them to not make good on it other than "we just don't feel like giving you Karabor or Bladespire."

[Bisso]

Because they are LIARS.

They Lied about flying mounts.
They've lied about questing being epic, verified by their own MvPs.
Now they've lied about this.

How many more lies do they need to tell before people start holding them accountable?

WTF? You can be mad about some changes, but accusing game developers to be liars is a strong statement. You can accuse, say Ubisoft, to have lied about Watch_Dogs visuals at E3 presentation. You can't accuse Blizzard of being liars, especially when it's about game design decisions during an Alpha where every time they make a statement, they SPECIFICALLY note that everything IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE DURING DEVELOPMENT. Everything is everything, things you hate, and things you love. It's sad really, but you know, that's why you shouldn't preorder, and buy the final product if you think it's worth it the day it comes out.

[miffy23]

I'm getting more and more amused how this isn't getting picked up for the front page.

[manypillars]

I guess from a detached perspective the change makes sense. This makes it pretty obvious that no flying is really about WPvP and not about grand adventures. With WPvP as a design priority they want it concentrated into a zone that's permanently PvP enabled on both PvE and PvP servers so they can concentrate the opportunities and they want to move the player hub right next to it if not in that perma-PvP zone to make sure are that players are there by default rather than having them have to travel. If people have to travel to be there then there will be fewer players there than if Blizzard has them all penned into the zone through the lure of trade chat, PvE vendors, PvE quest givers, world portals and the auction house.

And if the hubs are permanently PvP enabled themselves this prevents people from just AFKing in the hub because they will always be subject to being killed even on a PvE server. That's supposing that the lure of being in the current content hub overrides the desire to not be killed in a faction capitol on a PvE server and doesn't just drive players back to SW/Org and away from their precious WPvP. If the hub is only accessible from the rest of Draenor by flight path at least you'll auto clear your flag when you leave. Unfortunately, in this situation if you're on a very imbalanced server you can look forward to your PvE vendors always being dead.

[Yarathir]

I'm getting more and more amused how this isn't getting picked up for the front page.

They're probs just collecting more and more information. I doubt they'd post a few small tidbits on the frontpage like that.

[7seti]

Yes. They could, because things don't always go according to plan.
Blizzard also planned for an Abyssal Maw raid at the Cata announcement Blizzcon. And for us putting an end to Garrosh at the MoP announcement Blizzcon. Blizzard is a game company, not a prophetic seer, they announce their intentions and sometimes they change their minds or run into difficulties and are forced to compromise.

Yes, they could. And their players could leave the game like rats leaving a sinking ship.

My point is, when something that's been officially announced gets changed we have every right to complain about it. And to demand a proper explanation of why it was changed. This attitude of "sit down, shut up and accept what you're given" is not helpful.

Karabor won't be empty. It will be rendered meaningless, or worse - a sore reminder of what could've been.

Gilneas 2.0

And if the hubs are permanently PvP enabled themselves this prevents people from just AFKing in the hub because they will always be subject to being killed even on a PvE server.

The hubs themselves are not forced PvP areas. There is literally nothing gained by putting the hubs in Ashran that could not be achieved by a couple of portals and an NPC announcement of major events in the zone, just like we had for Tol Barad.

Speaking of Tol Barad, it was put in it's own separate area to avoid the major lag issues caused by having Wintergrasp as part of Northrend. Now it looks like we're facing the same problem.

[Deleted]

I guess all the work already put into Karabor and Bladespire just makes both of these places have the same overall purpose as Gilneas City- useful for the intro quests and useless later. Just wonderful.

[deadman1]

He traded a small powerful orc force for the force of the united orc clans and time to prepare and equip them.
That's not even close to "ending".

The point is we did take him down from the seat he held, therefore it wasn't a a lie.

[Coconut]

I don't think this is about forcing us to engage in PvP at all.

I think they pulled the main hub location change after they decided to give us Garrisons in the quest chain immediate after the Tanaan introductory scenario. Taking the defense of Karabor/conquest of Bladespire into account as well, and presuming that comes up as soon as we finish with the Garrison, they were looking at main hubs locked behind about 3 hours of questing and initially populated by hostile mobs. Mage portals would have had to be reworked as well, with conditions or restrictions based on the users' unlocked content, lest they would send random players in a Bladespire filled with ogres.

People already complained about essential features being locked behind questing (albeit dailies) in MoP. Picture the complaints once people started to grow bored with the same 3 hours of linear content they had to slough through just to unlock a hub with the bare essentials. This is the real reason. It has to be. Ashran was the random miracle solution, not the cause of the change.


That being said, I still think it's a horrible, horrible decision.

First of all, these issues should have really come up in the early design phases... like, the first powerpoint map... not now. Second, all the gimmicks they're planning for the Garrisons aren't worth the loss of customization alone, let alone the loss of iconic cities (and, ironically, having the main hub with all the utilities in the same zone as the Garrison was the ONE thing that worked well with not being able to move them; it compensated for the Garrison's lack of hub utilities while preserving convenience and creating the illusion of a larger world with separate points of interest). Ashran doesn't even have the proper geographical placement for a main hub zone, it's out of the way like the Timeless Isle, close to nothing but Tanaan, if you fancy water walking around the Dark Portal bluffs...

There are more elegant solutions to solving the quest chain problem. Once you earn the achievement for it once, your alts could have the following chat option with their fellow Archmage: "Khadgar, I have already witnessed our triumph through the strands of destiny. Speed fate up, take us to a time when our foothold here is complete, and Bladespire is conquered/Karabor is saved!", which would instantly port them to the adequate phase. They would lose out on doing the quest chain and gaining the rewards and experience, but no one would be able to say they were forced to quest for their hub.

Edit: And, of course, they can have two hubs with banks and portals... Duh...

[Velerios]

A change for the better imo, with no flying, I wouldn't like to have faction hub in the middle of nowhere, even if that place is the most dangerous place in the continent. It makes sense to have both major city close by like in MoP, having them near Ashran is even better has it will drive people to go there by instinct. I'm not a pvp player, but Ashran has my attention for some reason. Likewise, if Timeless Isle could have been in between both faction shrines, it would have been a much more interesting place to get. I mostly never went there again because of the travel time. With no flying, imagine how empty Ashran would get after a month.

I am a player on a PvE-Realm and I am NOT INTERRESTED in this PvP-Thing. So why force us to do this PvP thing called ashran. What it makes for us: The game far more laggy, since the faction-hubs will be on generic human fort #4303 and this PvP thing too will make it definively laggy. Think about it: it happens in Wintergrasp, and Dalaran was far away. Now the same will happen direct on the front door of the faction-hubs. It is not only to have generic human fort #4303 as main capital hub, instead it will lag as hell there.

[Deleted]

Yeah I don't like this at all. If I recall correctly it kinda defeats the purpose of that quest in Frostfire where you have to kick the ogres out of Bladespire. I like the idea of our factions dealing with the Iron Horde on two fronts. I sincerely hope this changes before release and I will be voicing my concern for it.