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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    I have the Crit % built into the formula for total healing. The Crit and Mastery (for periodic effects) is not included in the direct heal or HoT columns (and I took the HoT numbers with Harmony not up). In that formula, I have the direct heal for unglyphed Regrowth multiplied by 1.73 (60% Crit baseline+13% on gear) and the direct heal for glyphed Regrowth multiplied by 2.0 (guaranteed Crit). I also have the difference in Crit rating baked into the average Living Seed healing numbers.
    You've got the same values for regrowth and regrowth glyphed (on the direct heal), so one of them is wrong. Also, would be nice if you could check wether the ratio of regrowth/reju actually changes going from 90 to 100, because by the looks of it, your non-glyphed regrowth doesn't include the perk bonus (assuming wowdb/wowhead list the SP values pre-perk)

    If you take Moment of Clarity (which I suspect will be the "default" talent at low gear levels), we will be spamming Rejuv during OoC procs (and WG if it's up).
    I'm still inclined to say it's going to be regrowth, but yes, that's what we're going to do.

    Even with them being free and only healing output taken into account, RG and SM are less HPET than Rejuv. Therefore, we will still have to force ourselves to cast extra Healing Touches that we didn't necessarily want to cast.
    Not quite. HT'S HPET is so low, that it should turn out to be superior to refresh via SM. MoC should allow you to basically use SM on CD, either because it procs when you have to refresh via SM anyway, or because MoC saved you enough mana to allow you to use an additional SM.

    Though to be entirely certain that's possible (or actually more, i.e. that MoC allows you to freely use SM/WG/SotF), we need some actual hands on experience in raids, i.e. we can only say wether our T100 is simply bad (i.e. either no good option, or being forced into the clear cut winner), when it's already to late for major changes. Well, I'll stand by my prediction for now, i.e. Germination will mostly be limited to tanks, RG will break apart in any raid enviroment because it's to restrictive to use, just pick MoC and freely use regrowth/WG. That is, they'll nerf MoC prior to release and we end up with no useful option alltogether (Well, germination for additional healin on the tanks, when the raid doesn't require attention)

  2. #122
    Titan Gumboy's Avatar
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    Not being able to cast anything out of travel form is so, so, so so sosoososooooooooooo bad for pvp. Do they seriously want us to have /cancelaura travel form macros for EVERY ABILITY?
    You're a towel.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by stormgust View Post
    You've got the same values for regrowth and regrowth glyphed (on the direct heal), so one of them is wrong. Also, would be nice if you could check wether the ratio of regrowth/reju actually changes going from 90 to 100, because by the looks of it, your non-glyphed regrowth doesn't include the perk bonus (assuming wowdb/wowhead list the SP values pre-perk)


    I'm still inclined to say it's going to be regrowth, but yes, that's what we're going to do.


    Not quite. HT'S HPET is so low, that it should turn out to be superior to refresh via SM. MoC should allow you to basically use SM on CD, either because it procs when you have to refresh via SM anyway, or because MoC saved you enough mana to allow you to use an additional SM.

    Though to be entirely certain that's possible (or actually more, i.e. that MoC allows you to freely use SM/WG/SotF), we need some actual hands on experience in raids, i.e. we can only say wether our T100 is simply bad (i.e. either no good option, or being forced into the clear cut winner), when it's already to late for major changes. Well, I'll stand by my prediction for now, i.e. Germination will mostly be limited to tanks, RG will break apart in any raid enviroment because it's to restrictive to use, just pick MoC and freely use regrowth/WG. That is, they'll nerf MoC prior to release and we end up with no useful option alltogether (Well, germination for additional healin on the tanks, when the raid doesn't require attention)
    As mentioned, the reason the direct heals have the same value is because I stripped out the effect of Crit (and for HoT portions mastery) in the numbers in the direct heal column and then added them back into the formula for the total healing column.

    Unglyphed Regrowth:
    Direct Heal = 16,402 x 1.73 (60% baseline crit+13% Crit on gear) = 28,375
    Expected Living Seed Healing = 16,402 (direct heal before Crit) x 0.73 (Crit chance) x 0.5 (Living Seed amount on Crit) = 5987
    HoT effect = 690 per tick x 7 ticks x 1.13 (13% Crit raid buffed) x 1.22 (22% mastery raid buffed) = 6659
    Total Healing = 41,021

    Glyphed Regrowth
    Direct Heal (before Crit) = 16,402 x 2.0 (100% Crit) = 32,804
    Living Seed = 16,402 (direct heal before Crit) x 1 (100% Crit) x 0.5 (living seed amount on Crit) = 8201
    Total Healing = 41,005

    The scaling from 90 to 100 of Rejuv and Regrowth is fairly similar. Rejuv gets the extra 3 seconds of duration added (a raw 25% buff) and Regrowth gets a 30% buff to the direct heal and Living Seed goes from 30% to 50% of Crit amounts. At both 90 and 100, Rejuv is slightly more HPET and over twice as much HPM as Regrowth.

    MoC is essentially the same thing as the legendary meta gem. On live, we generally spam Rejuv during LMG procs, not Regrowth. I don't see how that would change in a 6.0 environment where HoTs should not have anything close to the ludicrous amount of expected overheal that they have on live.

    HT's HPET is low, but when you do the math on regen, I suspect we are going to have to use it. At ilvl 660 (which I think is the equivalent to either LFR or normal mode first tier gear) on the level 100 pre-mades, with Spirit items in every available slot (including a base Spirit trinket), I have 5928 mp5 in combat and a 1.3 second GCD. Rejuv spam (3360 mana at level 100) is going to burn through 12,923 mp5 compared to Healing Touch burning through 8580 mp5. We are in no way going to be able to spam Rejuv at these values and are going to have to maximize HPM. Things like Regrowth and Swiftmend will probably have to be avoided outside of MoC/OoC procs (or SM avoided altogether if you don't take MoC), because you just can't afford to be casting ~5 HPM spells when even your efficient 10-12 HPM spells are not sustainable. It isn't just Druids either; every healer has similar mana costs/regen math on their "efficient" heals.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gumboy View Post
    Not being able to cast anything out of travel form is so, so, so so sosoososooooooooooo bad for pvp. Do they seriously want us to have /cancelaura travel form macros for EVERY ABILITY?
    They have said that not being able to cast spells to cancel out of travel/flight form is a bug, so it will be fixed.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    As mentioned, the reason the direct heals have the same value is because I stripped out the effect of Crit (and for HoT portions mastery) in the numbers in the direct heal column and then added them back into the formula for the total healing column.
    Ah yeah, I assumed that your HoT values were already mastery buffed [and thus got confused because regrowth didn't end up at 3x reju ticks].

    The scaling from 90 to 100 of Rejuv and Regrowth is fairly similar. Rejuv gets the extra 3 seconds of duration added (a raw 25% buff) and Regrowth gets a 30% buff to the direct heal
    What I meant is that Regrowth should've gone from 2.3x reju tick to 3x reju tick (from 90 to 100). Obviously it does so, once you account for mastery on reju ticks.

    and Living Seed goes from 30% to 50% of Crit amounts.
    Why are your LS numbers based on non-critical heals then?

    MoC is essentially the same thing as the legendary meta gem. On live, we generally spam Rejuv during LMG procs, not Regrowth. I don't see how that would change in a 6.0 environment where HoTs should not have anything close to the ludicrous amount of expected overheal that they have on live.
    RG has higher HPET (If LS is in fact based on critical amount), we loose swift rejuvenation (-> GCD invested = same) and the argument on overheal can just as well be applied to regrowth, i.e. reju had a smaller chance to overheal, because it distributed it healing over a longer timeintervall and thus actually had a higher chance of landing at points where people weren't topped of. So things changed quite a bit when compared to live.

    HT's HPET is low, but when you do the math on regen, I suspect we are going to have to use it. At ilvl 660 (which I think is the equivalent to either LFR or normal mode first tier gear) on the level 100 pre-mades, with Spirit items in every available slot (including a base Spirit trinket), I have 5928 mp5 in combat and a 1.3 second GCD. Rejuv spam (3360 mana at level 100) is going to burn through 12,923 mp5 compared to Healing Touch burning through 8580 mp5. We are in no way going to be able to spam Rejuv at these values and are going to have to maximize HPM.
    I'll be honest, I didn't expect mana to be that tight. It basically translates to "Use spells with cd on cd, because those will be superior to other spells (because they have a cd!), use highest efficiency spell as often as you can while sustaining CD useage". For druid (using your numbers) - assuming WG is at least somewhat "smart" - this means that on a 6 minute fight the best option will be: SM/WG/SotF, 1x reju/refresh LB. There's hardly room for any other spells ( the best option on higher mana regen/shorter duration then would be: pick RG for WG every 10 sec, then drop WG glyph for SM/WG every 8s). Of course that's assuming your whole raid takes damage, not just some selected individuals (<= 4, but then you could just as well drop down to 1-2 healers on 20 mythic and pick up more DD's)

    Things like Regrowth and Swiftmend will probably have to be avoided outside of MoC/OoC procs (or SM avoided altogether if you don't take MoC),
    MoC is in for some nerfs (according to celestalon), and RG will probably be adjusted to buff SM (according to recent tweets by celestalon).

  5. #125
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    Thank you for all the updates and numbers, Tiberria. I'm still waiting for a beta key and am feeding off of infos like yours.

  6. #126
    Titan Gumboy's Avatar
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    Having a hard time healing the burial grounds on my resto druid, not sure if we are just doing things wrong, but when things go bad and I don't have tranq from the last time thigns went bad..getting people up seems almost impossible at the moment. Was just a random pug so no clue how skilled the people were.
    You're a towel.

  7. #127
    Here is a healing breakdown at level 100 during an UBRS run.

    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...ss=-3&source=2

    At least in 5 mans, we end up casting a whole lot of Healing Touch because you need a lot of supplemental tank healing over and above LB/letting LB bloom/Rejuv. Swiftmend and Regrowth unless absolutely necessary will run you OOM if you try and use them as primary tank heals.

  8. #128
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    Have you done Burial grounds? I seriously was boggled at how bad the healing was if everyone in the group took damage in like a pulse or even just standing in things. Maybe people just have to be re-trained to avoid puddles more, because at that ilvl (600) heals were not enough to keep up with the aoe damage.
    You're a towel.

  9. #129
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    I have healed SBG with every healer class except monk and I had the least problems with my resto druid. Even if everyone takes dmg double Rejuv, Genesis, WG and Efflo are strong enough to heal through almost anything.
    Last edited by mmoc9700360d28; 2014-07-05 at 10:39 AM.

  10. #130
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    How are you double rejuving? are you going on it from the level 100 realm?

    I was on a premade, so I did not have that option and 60 less ilvl of gear, if you were on the pvp 100 realm.
    You're a towel.

  11. #131
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    Yes with a lvl 100 pre made you have the 100 talents and perks. Didn't have any problems with a lvl90 either though. You just have to keep in mind that right now if your group is too fail (doesn't use stuns, interrupts ect. at all) you will most likely whipe on SBG trash no matter what you do.

  12. #132
    Level 100 pre-mades give you the level 100 talents plus leveling perks. Scaled up level 90-92s don't give you that, but they do let you use set bonuses, and the legendary cloak/meta procs.

  13. #133
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    Didn't they say that shrooms would be on a 30 cooldown with a 30 second duration now? Did they revert that?

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Medelwr View Post
    Didn't they say that shrooms would be on a 30 cooldown with a 30 second duration now? Did they revert that?
    That change, alongside the change to SotF were only noted in the patchnotes and weren't implemented yet. At 4 weeks it may very well be, that both changes were scrapped (or they forgot about them, like they did with the bear hug perk). Still, both shrooms and SotF need some changes then. Shrooms because they're way too strong, SotF because at 50% haste it doesn't really keep up with the other options, mostly because swiftmend is way to expensive.

    @Tiberria Hard to see from your log, but were you running germination (or an upscaled lvl 90 toon without perks/talents)? As for what you can deduce from the numbers? Not really much to be fair, maybe that you'd be entirely stupid to pick anything but Ysera's gift (across all specs?) - and knowing blizzard they'll just nerfing it (instead of bringing the other two options on par).
    As for our T90, it seems like we'll hardly get use out of NV (did you get around to test DoC yet?)

    Also, anyone able to test how DoC plays out numberwise on Feral/Balance (once DoC for balance is changed to fit the new Eclipse).

  15. #135
    The change to SoTF is active on beta right now.

    The Wild Mushroom thing is bugged
    -If you have Glyph of Sprouting Mushroom, Efflo is a 5 minute duration, 3 second CD
    -If you don't have it glyphed, Efflo is a 30 second duration, 3 second CD

    I have no idea where they are going with it - maybe they scrapped the 30 sec CD but are keeping the 30 sec duration? We will see when they ever update patch notes.

    I was using Moment of Clarity, not Germination. Germination shows up as a seperate buff called Rejuvenation (Germination). Moment of Clarity is way too strong not to use right now, especially doing overtuned dungeons at ilvl 600. It essentially gives you 20% in combat uptime of 0 mana cost spells. We will only move away from that once mana isn't a real constraint.

    I have played with DoC on target dummies; the healing requirements in these dungeons requires near constant chain casting, so you can't really afford to use something like DoC. In pre-made gear, Wrath is a 1.83 sec cast/2816 mana cost spell and the healing portion of DoC does about 16k healing. That works out to 8743 HPET/5.7 HPM which makes it objectively worse than just spamming Healing Touch and probably worse than standing around doing nothing. If they ever make Wrath mana free for Resto/when you take DoC, it might be a viable option. Until then, it's still complete garbage and NV will be the default talent chose, since it's the only one that actually really adds something (unless you really want that hybrid utility button of HoTW).

    Here's a log of another UBRS clear, this time without using Glyph of Blooming and trying to keep LB refreshed as opposed to letting it bloom all time.

    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...aling&source=5

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    The Wild Mushroom thing is bugged
    -If you have Glyph of Sprouting Mushroom, Efflo is a 5 minute duration, 3 second CD
    -If you don't have it glyphed, Efflo is a 30 second duration, 3 second CD

    I have no idea where they are going with it - maybe they scrapped the 30 sec CD but are keeping the 30 sec duration? We will see when they ever update patch notes.
    They probably forgot to update Spourting Mushrooms. It's basically implemented as a different version of the spell. So they just forgot about it most likely.

    I was using Moment of Clarity, not Germination. Germination shows up as a seperate buff called Rejuvenation (Germination). Moment of Clarity is way too strong not to use right now, especially doing overtuned dungeons at ilvl 600. It essentially gives you 20% in combat uptime of 0 mana cost spells. We will only move away from that once mana isn't a real constraint.
    Well, MoC will get nerfed, which will give germination at least some use in 5 man. In raids we'll either end up with MoC (if they don't nerf it into being useless), or RG (if they actually buff it in a meaningful way). Germination just doesn't fit unless you go with strict healing assignment or an encounter requires you to heal about 4-6 people at a time.

    I have played with DoC on target dummies; the healing requirements in these dungeons requires near constant chain casting, so you can't really afford to use something like DoC. In pre-made gear, Wrath is a 1.83 sec cast/2816 mana cost spell and the healing portion of DoC does about 16k healing. That works out to 8743 HPET/5.7 HPM which makes it objectively worse than just spamming Healing Touch and probably worse than standing around doing nothing.
    Ok. That's just bad.

    If they ever make Wrath mana free for Resto/when you take DoC, it might be a viable option.
    They don't really have much options to buff DoC I'd say. Either keep the mana cost and increase healing (or damage -> healing) considerable. Or they remove mana cost and keep it as a damaging option with a small, free heal attached.

    Until then, it's still complete garbage and NV will be the default talent chose, since it's the only one that actually really adds something.
    Yah for a rather mediocre heal increase, but it's at least something.

    (unless you really want that hybrid utility button of HoTW)
    The healing design may actually turn it in a somewhat good option. It's more or less required for them to tune fight in such a way, that if played well, we'll end the fight at (in a worst case) 0% mana (usually more). Thus there'd better be some phases of low/moderate damage. It may require a CD/duration reduction though (e.g. 2min/15s).


    Here's a log of another UBRS clear, this time without using Glyph of Blooming and trying to keep LB refreshed as opposed to letting it bloom all time.

    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...aling&source=5
    May be a bit much to ask, but would be nice to see a run using CW/glyphed regrowth.

  17. #137
    There is no reason to test CW right now; at level 100, it's 17k per tick and you get at most 3 ticks/30 seconds plus a GCD and mana cost. Ysera's Gift is 9k per tick and you get a tick every 5 seconds.

    They said they will nerf Moment of Clarity, but I don't really see what they can do to it without making it a useless talent. For one thing, the most recent build apparently changed it so that regular OoC procs can now be consumed by Wild Growth.

    -If they make it only work with cast time spells, it will actually be worse than not having the talent at all in a lot of cases. Wild Growth is the big mana dump, and you can hold the regular OOC proc until Wild Growth is off cooldown. With Moment of Clarity, 50% or more of the time, WG will be on cooldown when it procs and you will have to waste the proc or spam 3 Regrowths in a row when you rarely will want to do that.
    -If they reduce the duration to say 3 seconds, it will be similarly problematic. You will be capped to getting 2 spells off, and might only get 1 off if it procs while on GCD or in the middle of casting something. If you can't always get at least 3 Rejuvs off during a proc (even if WG is on CD), you are better off having the regular OOC proc.

    I don't see how they can nerf it without making it useless. The better approach is to add something to Germination that makes it an actual throughput increase like maybe making Rejuv be 18 secs instead of 15 secs with that talent on top of being able to have 2 per target.

  18. #138
    I know Germination looks bad as a raw throughput increase in a raiding environment, but I think it has more potential then you guys are giving it credit for, especially for as long as Rejuv remains our sexiest spam-able heal. Anytime there's focused damage you're essentially able to replace a Swiftmend/Regrowth with a Rejuv on that target once every 11-19 secs (which is basically worth a free Rejuv every time you're able to do that). It may be difficult for that to beat 2-3 free spells every ~25 secs, but it's not impossible and Germination will also be significantly more flexible than Moment of Clarity. Right now, it seems like it'd be optimal for dealing with mechanics like Protector's Garrote, Dark Shaman's Toxic Mists, Nazgrim's Bonecracker/Snipers, and Paragon's Parasites/Fiery Edges. Anytime you can tell where the raid damage is going to be focused it becomes immediately competitive -- and even without those mechanics there will always be tanks. Hell, just having 2 tanks taking damage simultaneously within range of you might be enough to consider it over Moment of Clarity.

    Maybe Moment of Clarity is too strong right now, but I don't think it's the only conceivable option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    They said they will nerf Moment of Clarity, but I don't really see what they can do to it without making it a useless talent. For one thing, the most recent build apparently changed it so that regular OoC procs can now be consumed by Wild Growth.
    Let's be clear here, just adding Wild Growth to all Clarity procs reduces the power of Moment of Clarity relative to Omen of Clarity because you'll basically always be able to use Wild Growth with Omen while Moment will be relatively random and the Mana and HPCT differences between Wild Growth and everything else are massive. Even when you are able to cast Wild Growth during MoC, because you are also able to cast Wild Growth during OoC, you're still getting more than half of the value of a MoC proc with your OoC.

    Also, there's really endless room to tune Moment of Clarity if they're willing to adjust the mana reduction from 100% down to something as minor as 90%. I'm sure they'd like to avoid having to do that since it would likely make it feel more complicated psychologically and mechanically, but it's certainly a conceivable option.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Skagasm View Post
    I know Germination looks bad as a raw throughput increase in a raiding environment, but I think it has more potential then you guys are giving it credit for, especially for as long as Rejuv remains our sexiest spam-able heal. Anytime there's focused damage you're essentially able to replace a Swiftmend/Regrowth with a Rejuv on that target once every 11-19 secs (which is basically worth a free Rejuv every time you're able to do that). It may be difficult for that to beat 2-3 free spells every ~25 secs, but it's not impossible and Germination will also be significantly more flexible than Moment of Clarity. Right now, it seems like it'd be optimal for dealing with mechanics like Protector's Garrote, Dark Shaman's Toxic Mists, Nazgrim's Bonecracker/Snipers, and Paragon's Parasites/Fiery Edges. Anytime you can tell where the raid damage is going to be focused it becomes immediately competitive -- and even without those mechanics there will always be tanks. Hell, just having 2 tanks taking damage simultaneously within range of you might be enough to consider it over Moment of Clarity.

    Maybe Moment of Clarity is too strong right now, but I don't think it's the only conceivable option.


    Let's be clear here, just adding Wild Growth to all Clarity procs reduces the power of Moment of Clarity relative to Omen of Clarity because you'll basically always be able to use Wild Growth with Omen while Moment will be relatively random and the Mana and HPCT differences between Wild Growth and everything else are massive. Even when you are able to cast Wild Growth during MoC, because you are also able to cast Wild Growth during OoC, you're still getting more than half of the value of a MoC proc with your OoC.

    Also, there's really endless room to tune Moment of Clarity if they're willing to adjust the mana reduction from 100% down to something as minor as 90%. I'm sure they'd like to avoid having to do that since it would likely make it feel more complicated psychologically and mechanically, but it's certainly a conceivable option.
    It's entirely possible that giving WG the ability to consume OOC procs was their attempt at a solution to make Moment of Clarity more in line with the other talents. After all, it's kind of illogical that OOC won't work with WG when it specifically states "cast time healing spells". I still suspect that MoC will remain the strongest talent at first tier gear levels, just because the amount of Rejuv spam needed to make Germination strong is probably not sustainable at low gear levels.

    One other thing that was not announced but started happening in the last build is that when you cast Ironbark, it is applying it to both your target and yourself for 20% damage reduction, not just the target.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    There is no reason to test CW right now; at level 100, it's 17k per tick and you get at most 3 ticks/30 seconds plus a GCD and mana cost. Ysera's Gift is 9k per tick and you get a tick every 5 seconds.
    Let's just hope that they fix CW and the whatever it is called talent, instead of nerfing Ysera's Gift. Depending on how long we stay below MaxHP, it's just a small, free amount of selfhealing anyway.

    I don't see how they can nerf it without making it useless. The better approach is to add something to Germination that makes it an actual throughput increase like maybe making Rejuv be 18 secs instead of 15 secs with that talent on top of being able to have 2 per target.
    I'd never expected to agree completely with something you write, but here we are. Exactly my thoughts. My suggestion for germination would be, to have it reduce reju GCD, i.e. reintroduce swift rejuvenation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skagasm View Post
    I know Germination looks bad as a raw throughput increase in a raiding environment, but I think it has more potential then you guys are giving it credit for, especially for as long as Rejuv remains our sexiest spam-able heal. Anytime there's focused damage you're essentially able to replace a Swiftmend/Regrowth with a Rejuv on that target once every 11-19 secs (which is basically worth a free Rejuv every time you're able to do that).
    It's at best a break even. The Regrowth will be free, the SM provides you with a reju worth of healing by itself and a 100% increase to the reju following [via SotF].

    It may be difficult for that to beat 2-3 free spells every ~25 secs, but it's not impossible and Germination will also be significantly more flexible than Moment of Clarity. Right now, it seems like it'd be optimal for dealing with mechanics like Protector's Garrote, Dark Shaman's Toxic Mists, Nazgrim's Bonecracker/Snipers, and Paragon's Parasites/Fiery Edges.
    Aren't all of those mechanics something unlikely in the WoD heal environment? Right now I'd fully expect (by blizzards description) to be able to spotheal either of those mechanics with HT, thus also regrowth, which you can turn free via MoC/OoC, and heals for more than a reju (with LS, rightly so because otherwise you'd really never bother to cast it)

    Anytime you can tell where the raid damage is going to be focused it becomes immediately competitive -- and even without those mechanics there will always be tanks. Hell, just having 2 tanks taking damage simultaneously within range of you might be enough to consider it over Moment of Clarity.
    Even if MoC just affected regrowth, the fact that regrowth has a higher HPET [and will have unless you want it removed from our bars in favor of reju entirely] leads to MoC being superior - unless you turn MoC into a bad iteration of OoC. The whole matter at hand is: If you have time for two rejuvenations to tick, you're likely to have enough time to wait for the next MoC proc to use 2x regrowth instead.

    Also, there's really endless room to tune Moment of Clarity if they're willing to adjust the mana reduction from 100% down to something as minor as 90%. I'm sure they'd like to avoid having to do that since it would likely make it feel more complicated psychologically and mechanically, but it's certainly a conceivable option.
    You'd need to go as low as 40% to make that work out [at 5s duration, for lower duration see tiberrias argument]. Honestly, if the only way to not have a talent outperform the other options is to nerf it into being useless, either the underlying mechanic is broken by desin - or, as the two other options are discussed to be either restrictive or simply bad, you actually have two bad talents paired with a good one, and thus go ahead and just buff the bad options.

    Just to add one more thing as to why germination is bad [by looking at the considered to be bad and in line for buffs option Rampant Growth: If they buff it, it basically provides the same targeted troughput increase germination gives (via SotF) AND an additional troughput increase (via SM) at a to be determined efficiency (depends on what buff they choose to account for the heavy target restriction it has - e.g. a mana cost reduction to SM would outright destroy germination)

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