What made vanilla and TBC so memorable?

[Thimagryn]

You're just saying that because of nostalgia for the times you could just say it's nostalgia and nobody would call you out for it. I understand. But it's just nostalgia.

So you agree it is nostalgia then.

[Deleted]

Nostalgia and the fact that end game content was very exclusive. Not many people done it and it was not very accessible.

[Wikiy]

I convinced myself that it's a case of nostalgia the other day when I soloed ICC and had a sudden rush of memories that caused an irresistible smile followed by the realization that WotLK wasn't so bad. There are only really two possibilities, WotLK really was a good expansion, or nostalgia can affect our opinions so much that it's actually worthless to even compare today's expansions to Vanilla or TBC or whatever.

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Nostalgia and the fact that end game content was very exclusive. Not many people done it and it was not very accessible.

Then why would the majority of Vanilla/TBC players still have such great opinions of those times when most of them had no opportunity to experience the raid content? No, it has nothing to do with the accessibility of raids.

[Deleted]

So you agree it is nostalgia then.

I agree your name should be changed to Nostalgia.
You say it more often than Hodor says "Hodor".

[Deleted]

For me it was the porogression over all and the get good or get lost mentallity. Though I didn't realize it at the time there was a clear line of progression and t felt like I had a tonne of content to do. As an example imagine starting MoP you start raiding the first tier, before you even done with that Throne of Thunder is realsed and in order to get into that shiny new place with all the awesome looking bosses and loot you have to fire through the first. But basically you had different guilds at different progress which was nice although as mentioned guild hopping was a problem.

I mean I was in a few guilds just in kara and finally joined one that stuck it out through Kara/Gruul/Mag/The Eye/SSC and I felt like I'd come really far and was aiming at Hyjal/Black Temple.

It just felt like in order to get to that end bad guy you had to work for it and you've got to go through his allies first before youg et to him. It just felt like a tonne of content to be honest. Whereas now its like first tier for 6 months roughly then next tier and so on with each tier becoming outdated by the next. While in TBC raid model you had 3 different tiers spread over your character if you were unlucky. Its quite an exciting feeling when you've farmed say TK/SSC for a few weeks and your raid leader finally says "We're ready" and everyone knows you're heading into The Black Temple or so on.

Thats all I can really remember to be honest, made a lot of good friends too but sadly majority of them are no longer playing or ahve IRL commitments now and don't ahve th time to raid etc.

[Duronos]

I convinced myself that it's a case of nostalgia the other day when I soloed ICC and had a sudden rush of memories that caused an irresistible smile followed by the realization that WotLK wasn't so bad. There are only really two possibilities, WotLK really was a good expansion, or nostalgia can affect our opinions so much that it's actually worthless to even compare today's expansions to Vanilla or TBC or whatever.

While nostalgia does affect parts of our memories I for one can say I do prefer playing Vanilla on a private server than I do retail any day. For me personally Vanilla is 2nd to BC though I'm still waiting to judge that based off of the release of a blizzlike BC server (corecraft) so it's just personal memory.

While Vanilla was all about the mystery, it really didn't last long until you figured out that a website called thottbot could explain everything to you if you wanted too, it was our wowhead and I think it was bought out by wowhead. When I played Vanilla I tend to notice one major difference that makes the game more enjoyable... People talk to each other, it's not some anti-social stop whispering me kind of thing. You know who the fuck faces are and you know who's not and that is a fantastic design. I can not for the life of me enjoy MoP for two reasons.

1. It's anti-social due to the way the game is currently designed with LFD and LFR though I personally think PvP should be crossrealm since that is the nature of PvP, competitive everywhere not just server.

2. It's really fucking easy to level, get into raid content, did I also mention the biggest issue with the entire game... YOU CAN SKIP RAID TIERS IF A NEW PATCH COMES OUT! You guys always wonder why you run out of "content", it's because a lot of you skip over it with LFR. LFR is the entire reason subs drop after the final patch of an expansion, I hate to break it to you but you'd be more interested in the game if you had to go through every raid tier with one set difficulty and you know why? Because whether you progress or not you always have something to do. You can tell me all you want about how it will bore you out, it will not bore most out and statistics have shown that when you do not skip over content subs stay consistent and rise, looking at you BC and Vanilla.

I liked Wrath early on up until LFD, that really fucked a lot of things over for me. I never finished Ulduar because guess what, you could skip over it once ToC came out and that really bothered me. Nobody would do it because there was no reason to do it, how in the flying fuck is that good design choice?

Now you're going to tell me heroic MGT was a way to skip over tiers, it wasn't plus that place was harder than Karazhan itself on heroic mode... Seriously fuck heroic MGT. MGT gear was equal to Karazhan gear which is fine because you could pretty much consider that place a 5 man raid.

I get a bit sad inside when people say it's nostalgia, the design choices they have made since mid-Wrath have been very questionable. It's not even casual, it's just easy and boring, why have 3 different modes for one raid, just have one set difficulty.

[Deleted]

I convinced myself that it's a case of nostalgia the other day when I soloed ICC and had a sudden rush of memories that caused an irresistible smile followed by the realization that WotLK wasn't so bad. There are only really two possibilities, WotLK really was a good expansion, or nostalgia can affect our opinions so much that it's actually worthless to even compare today's expansions to Vanilla or TBC or whatever.

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Then why would the majority of Vanilla/TBC players still have such great opinions of those times when most of them had no opportunity to experience the raid content? No, it has nothing to do with the accessibility of raids.

I was playing in vanilla and TBC and it was great as far as my memory and feeling of nostalgia goes :-) But end game content was not at all accessible to the majority of players. Now a days its the totally opposite, is that a good thing ? Well, that's a topic for another tread.

[Duronos]

Then why would the majority of Vanilla/TBC players still have such great opinions of those times when most of them had no opportunity to experience the raid content? No, it has nothing to do with the accessibility of raids.

You're right we didn't, I never raided in Vanilla but I enjoyed every moment of it... Well I did get a bit bored around level 20-30 and 40-50 (40-50 is terrible might I add) but overall it's the people you meet and connections you make in 5 man instances and the occasional hard quest. BRD was an emotional journey every time I ran it, place was huge and I'd be in there for hours so you really had time to talk to your 4 other party members.

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Also to be fully honest, each class felt like it's own thing and their own special abilities that no other class did. Rogues did not have heals, they would have level up first aid if they wanted any kind of heal. Then there is class imbalance (most notably in PvP), Shamans *drops mic*.

[Hightotemz]

TBC was built for the X-generation mentality where you have to work hard for what you get. Where 2 epics in tbc is worth more then full epics in current wow. Current wow is built for the y-Generation where people expect to be given the tools upfront.

[Vaelorian]

Ok let me just say this:

I prefer:

1. dungeons that are longer and harder then we have currently.
So do I suffer from nostalgia because I liked the dungeons and Vanilla and TBC (or even Cata prenerf) or do I like the level of commitment needed to complete them?

2. group effort
Do I suffer from nostalgia because I liked groupquesting and well everything in WoW used to be based on "forced" groupcontent?

3. grinding a long time before I got something special
Do I suffer from nostalgia because I want my objectives not be handed to me on a silver platter?

4. epics to be handed only to people whom raid or pvp on a high end level
Do I suffer from nostalgia or special snowflake syndrome because I want epics to have meaning? Extra info: I am not even able to get any epics (unless crafted) if I had my way. I cannot commit to the game like that anymore. Does that bother me? Hell no. And if by chance I would get an epic, I would feel all the more awesome.

5. using a groundmount. But I won't use it because I would be giving myself a disadvantage vs others ingame.
Do I suffer from nostalgia because I want "a bigger world"?

6. lasting content instead of skipping content
Do I suffer from nostalgia because I want content that last an entire expansion?
I won't disagree that there wouldn't be small upgrades found here and there that could help you out to progress a little faster. But not entire sets and def. not weapons. What is wrong with having people that are still stuck in "Karazhan" while another guild is already in "Sunwell"? Guildpoaching exists even today. That is not something that was there in just Vanilla and TBC. I am not asking for attunements here but...

7. attunements but not like the ones we had in TBC.
Do I suffer from nostalgia because I prefer attunements? I did not like how they were implemented. But to get attuned to Molten Core for example, was easy enough. So attunements like that would be welcomes by me. Especially as it had nothing to do with how far progressed your guild would be. You could always do it.

I dislike:

1. how the talenttrees were done
I am not saying I like how they are now because I don't. I liked the system way better how it used to be. But the stupid 1% etc or the mandatory abilities were stupid. If they would figure out a way to make those trees more fun, I would be for it.

2. how paladins had to bless every 5 min and other stuff
So suddenly I do not suffer from nostalgia because I dislike a feature. But if I liked the way the game used to be, people usually bring up stuff like the paladin blessings. I can assure you: NO ONE FUCKING LOVED TO BUFF EVERYONE EVERY 3 MINUTES (1 min to drink 1 min to buff, 3 min of play). No one who is accused of being nostalgic about Vanilla or TBC will agree to go back to these stupid things like blessings, shard farming, ammo, pigeonholed classes, buggs, imbalances, stupid cooldowns on certain abilities like Lay on Hands. The people that are nostalgic do not want that at all. If Blizzard would decided to "make a Vanilla server" the first thing to "fix" would be these things.

3. doing dailies
I can understand some people loving them as they give them something to do. But ever since TBC I hated them. I did my fair share as they were sorta mandatory when you are a raider and want to be prepared the best you can. But as soon as they weren't needed anymore I stopped doing them. What a mindnumbing experience.

4. Vanilla/TBC bossfights
I totally wouldn't want to go back to the simpleness of the bosses back then. But people who throw around the nostalgia card about "You just thought it was hard because it was new and no one knew how to play" are dead wrong. Sure people did not know as much about their classes in general. Well when I completed MC and went into BWL, I tell you: everyone knew how to play in my guild. Sure some were better then others. But everyone knew what did what and when to use it. The thing was: You had crushing blow (huh? what?). You had abilities that did not matter as much. They had far less impact on the survival of the tank or raid. You had fewer means to do damage. A lesser rotation if ANY rotation. So meanwhile the bosses were not that complex, the abilities and talents were set that you would probably wipe more then today while progressing. I mean Shieldwall did not have a cooldown of 10 min or less. It was like an hour or so. Same as Lay on Hands. Healing shields were not that great either.

So in short:

But overal if you ask me, I would rather play these older versions then the current version that is so easy and so unrewarding for so little effort. I would accept the buggs and imbalances etc and would enjoy content a lot more. But accepting and loving it are two different things.

[Raiju]

I convinced myself that it's a case of nostalgia the other day when I soloed ICC and had a sudden rush of memories that caused an irresistible smile followed by the realization that WotLK wasn't so bad. There are only really two possibilities, WotLK really was a good expansion, or nostalgia can affect our opinions so much that it's actually worthless to even compare today's expansions to Vanilla or TBC or whatever.

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Then why would the majority of Vanilla/TBC players still have such great opinions of those times when most of them had no opportunity to experience the raid content? No, it has nothing to do with the accessibility of raids.

Or you're a lot less capable of splitting your emotions from your reasoning than others.

On top of that, the exclusive raid model kept content relevant long after it had released (to other players) and basically ensured that there was always something new to go for for everyone except the very top (who always burn the content away naturally). Instead of running the same raid on 4 difficulties having never seen 2 of the first 3 raids properly - and going back now causing them to be trivial - you had an actual progression path through raiding. The only issue was the 20-40 and 10-25 splits really.

That isn't nostalgia, that's fact. The raid model was different and *SOME* people prefer it, even those who weren't at the top back then like myself. Others will prefer current model, but to brush off people with a different opinion than you as nostalgia is childish.

[wariofan1]

For Vanilla it was the first time I personally went into a world so big and vast, while I had tried MMOs before I had never stepped into one of such scale. The fact that the game wasn't very easy or comforting also makes it more memorable, I think most of us remember the grind to get our first mount at level 40, whether that's a good thing or not I'm not sure though. For the most part the Vanilla experience boils down to the fact that it was "the first time", otherwise it was rather poor.

I disliked TBC though, I don't really want to remember it.

[KrazyK923]

Its novelty.

That isn't nostalgia, that's fact. The raid model was different and *SOME* people prefer it, even those who weren't at the top back then like myself. Others will prefer current model, but to brush off people with a different opinion than you as nostalgia is childish.

Some then or some now?

Because I remember almost universal hated for having to go back to old raids to gear up people for BT or SWP. So much so that they added in catch up mechanics in every future expansion to prevent it.

[Deleted]

Its not Nostalgia that make Classic or TBC so great... of course, MoP has 200% more features, is better balanced, has more content, etc. BUT at the time classic was released it was just awesome for a MMORPG. Of course if it was released 3 years later it would never have been such a success.

[KrazyK923]

Its not Nostalgia that make Classic or TBC so great... of course, MoP has 200% more features, is better balanced, has more content, etc. BUT at the time classic was released it was just awesome for a MMORPG. Of course if it was released 3 years later it would never have been such a success.

Thats very much a nostalgia argument.

[Deleted]

I loved the fact that 5 mans during Vanilla and TBC (especially TBC) were harder then we have nowadays. Today we have dungeon content that isn't even worth playing. I genuinly though that after WOTLK the Cata dungeons would be just like in TBC. And they were!! Then they got nerfed.

Even Vanilla dungeons weren't hard and long once people geared up. Yes they were hard when you dinged 60 but once you got a full dungeon set and combined it with a couple of MC pieces you could have a warrior, a priest and 3 mages run around speed clearing dungeons that fresh 60 groups wiped in for hours. I know this because I did it a lot with my guild. No dungeon in this game stayed hard for a long period of time. The only difference between now and then in dungeons is modern dungeons take less time to become easy and most people know what to expect. Back then you had to tell people for 6 months in UBRS pugs that you're supposed to go upstairs to the left and not jump down to LBRS (where they died and couldn't ghost walk back to the instance because they didn't know the way from the GY).

The game was new back then and many of us were in early to mid teenage years. Back then everything was so good and it felt like you moved mountains when you got a piece of gear. In truth this game became old for many of us and doesn't give you the kick it used to. Whoever remembers the final bell ringing at school and thinking "I wish I had a hearthstone so I could get home this instant" knows what I'm talking about. 10 years is a lot of time and almost everybody gets bored with a single thing in that much time. When we were kids we would get tired of "THAT AWESOME TOY I JUST HAVE TO GET" in a week. This game is just old and many people grew up.

It's something like my grandpa telling me how noble politicians were in his time and how people are fucked up now when in truth those politicians got assasinated many times (by those good people who had respect for one another mind you) and he had to eat stale bread for weeks to survive. Yeah people and times sure were better gramps.

[Deficineiron]

It's something like my grandpa telling me how noble politicians were in his time and how people are fucked up now when in truth those politicians got assasinated many times (by those good people who had respect for one another mind you) and he had to eat stale bread for weeks to survive. Yeah people and times sure were better gramps.

While any reading of Plutarch or Tacitus will show that politics has not really changed in millenia, basic math will show average player damage/mob damage at level (as well as targeted and aoe healing/mob damage) in basic level gear has changed dramatically over the life of wow.

[Xires]

I know when people get all nostalgic about the past others are quick to point out how unbalanced or slow-paced the game was back then, and I agree that it was unbalanced, slow and a bit tedious at times but I think that's a big part of what made the game so enjoyable for me.

Just hear me out here:

-The slow pace of leveling and acquiring gear made it all the more rewarding. Since I was only gaining a few levels a week back then, it made every time I dinged that much more special. I get what Blizzard were trying to do by speeding up the leveling process, but it really took the sense of achievement out of it, to the point where people don't even bat an eyelid when someone dings around then, whereas before the very least they would've got would have been a /clap and a "gz."

-All the inconsistencies, unbalanced classes, bugs, pointless items, etc. brought the community together. I'm not saying Blizzard shouldn't try and fix these things whenever they find them, just that the way they've done it has meant a lot less variety. It's much harder to distinguish between classes now, you have the visual aspects and spell effects, but that's it really. Everything is very homogeneous. All you have to do is watch videos like Roguecraft which were basically centred around bitching about the game, but in a funny way, and the game was arguably the most unbalanced it's ever been in Vanilla and TBC, but it wasn't until halfway through WotLK that sub numbers stopped increasing.

-They've made the game too easy. WoW was always an easier game, but it always required teamwork and it was rare that you'd just blow up mobs without taking a bit of damage. Nowadays it's normal to one or two-shot mobs, even while leveling. This just makes everything trivial and killing monsters just feels more like a chore than anything else now. I remember back in the day I'd have to drink and eat between every other monster I killed, and if I messed up and ran right through an enemy base I'd definitely be dead, but last night I was in burning steppes grinding level 49-?? mobs on my level 40 hunter and died once. A good example is that if I saw a dragon, or any elite mob, back in vanilla or TBC I'd think about getting a group together to down it, but now I just run up to a massive dragon and kill it in literally 2-3 hits, it just feels stupid. What's the point in making these cool giant monsters if they're barely more powerful than critters?

-Armour sets are getting over the top. This one is more of a pet peeve of mine, but I just feel that since every set of armour has friggin lazers and fire coming out it just makes it less special. Are lazers cool? Yep. Is burning armour cool? Yep. Can something be cool if you have it every single day? Nope. Think about it this way - when you got that cool new car, or new bike, new whatever, it seemed amazing, but it wears off and doesn't seem special after a while. I feel that's exactly what happened with armour sets. It meant that little glow, or the faint wings on priest T3 armour seemed cool as fuck at the time, now everyone has fucking wings, armour, fire, lazers, spaulders the size of cars and it's starting to look stupid and clownish.

-The current model of replaying content on different difficulties just isn't too appealing to some. When I started playing again and hit 90, I did LFR, then after that I did flex, now I'm doing normals and it's just not fun anymore. I do it to help out my guild and that's it. I've killed Garrosh I don't know how many times now, and killing him 3 times a week is just gruelling. Back in TBC I didn't play much so didn't get to see a lot of the content, but I didn't mind. I'd spent my time in Karazhan and had a blast, then I moved onto the rest of the T4 stuff as T5 was coming out, and I didn't actually get to raid them (or even get attuned) for a good while after they were released, but it made it so much more special and rewarding when I finally did get there. This slower pace of progress also had the side effect of making that one guy who was raiding the very latest content that much more cooler and epic, nowadays everyone has all the latest gear and nothing is special anymore.

What do you guys think?

The raids, zones, and story were the best part. Oh and the guild I was in and the people I played with. Even questing at times could be difficult and dangerous. (elite quests) There was danger in the world and there were actually server communities. There also weren't 20 different raid difficulties. The theme of TBC was my favorite. (MoP is the worst theme ever) Raids got harder the further you progressed. People try and judge BC raids as they are now depite the fact that those raids recieved a 30% nerf to them in the end and even in wrath pugs with all lvl 80's would go into a nerfed and obsolete sunwell and wipe.

Even the dungeons were dangerous and fun. Now we have wrath/MoP zerg fests that take no effort and can easily be cleared without any knowledge of the encounters. Blizzard doesn't understand that when you make something super easy it becomes monotonous and utterly boring. Vanilla and TBC dungeons were fun to do even decked out in raid gear. MoP dungeons got boring after the first go around. WoD dungeons will be super easy aswell especially since blizzard said they want them around oculous difficulty and none of the wrath 5 mans were difficult hence the term "wrath babies". Challenge modes are simply timer runs and you skip as much as the content as possible and offered no real reward for doing them...imo challenge modes were a big failure.

People claim "nostalgia" I say the term you are really looking for is "challenging and engaging" as unless you are doing heroic (soon mythic) raiding...it simply does not exist in any other aspect of the game. Leveling is going to be more of a chore and snorefest as it has been since wrath. No possibility of failure and everything can and will be done all by yourself...gotta love playing a single player MMO.

[Deficineiron]

Blizzard doesn't understand that when you make something super easy it becomes monotonous and utterly boring.

I think it is very likely/nearly certain that the people that made and tuned wow/bc through 2.4 understood and understand this very well. It just isn't the priority driving design anymore, nor has it been for years.

[Radish Spirit]

Vanilla & BC were so awesome because a lot of you guys were kids back then.