Does frost "feel" powerful?

[Larsadius Rex]

Howdy y'all! I joined up warcraft in mid cataclysm, spent that whole expac dicking around with friends and thus never chose a "main" or raided or anything, but then mop rolled around and I finally started playing this game a bit more seriously and started by maining a monk. By the time I got him to 90, I realized that while he was fun, the reason I rolled melee (and always do) is because I love the feeling of being a wall of strength in a combat setting, and I love just continuously smashing by weapon into the enemies face (think 2h barbarian in d3). Obviously, that's not really the windwalker style.

So with my second attempt at finding a main to last me to the end of my warcraft days, I'm deciding between a frost dk and a warrior. So I'm asking if you guys feel that frost actually "feels" powerful. When you play a frost death knight, do you guys actually feel like a runic warrior wielding a runeforged weapon, flailing it around and smashing your enemies' teeth in? Y'know, big crits, strong procs, little downtime, a lot of different ways to up your defenses (from what I've seen, I at least know frost dk's have a lot of defensive abilities compared to other melee). And for those who also play a warrior, between frost dk and an arms warrior, which one do you think feels more vicious and strong?

Thanks!

[Deleted]

I prefer the Death Knight because of it's theme, and being able to "obliterate" enemies. (Go away, Dual Wield. -_- )

Thought Warrior "feels" stronger with skills like "Slam" and "Colossus Smash", Death Knight is by far more fun for me personally, because I don't have to pool resources to unleash everything in 1 go, I can consistently feel strong rather than feel strong at times.

[Skarssen]

If you are just questing or doing lower level PVE content (LFR, flex raids, etc) then frost is very good. 2h in particular kills very fast out in the world, and even does very high burst damage in PVP (but has lousy survivability). DW frost takes a bit more gear, but ultimately is better than 2h. Both specs have little downtime killing mobs if you use the Dark Succor glyph (heals for 20% after killing blows, for free).As for warriors both arms and fury require much more gear than frost does before they get really strong, though both specs can still kill mobs quickly with lower gear. Warriors also have a 20% heal after killing blows, so very little downtime. At max gear level fury destroys all DK specs, and arms is far superior to both frost and unholy in PVP.

from what I've seen, I at least know frost dk's have a lot of defensive abilities compared to other melee

Not sure what you are seeing, but frost has the weakest defenses of all melee. AMS is great for magic, but other than that frost has a -20% damage taken on a 3 minute CD, and a talented 5 sec stun on a 30sec CD that removes all of your mobility....hardly impressive. In comparsion, warriors (arms, not fury) can sit in Dstance for -25% damage at all times, Die by the Sword is -20% on 2min CD and makes them immune to melee damage for 10 sec, shield wall is -40% (I think? it may be 50%) damage taken on a 3min CD. They also have an 8 second fear, a ST stun on a 30 sec CD, a AOE stun on a 20-40sec CD, heroic leap to escape damage, safe guard to break roots and escape damage, and 1 ST spell reflect on a 25sec CD and potentially another (have to give up safeguard though) AOE spell reflect on a 1 min CD. DK defensives are not even in the same ballpark as warrior defensives.

Fun is the great equalizer. If you have more fun playing a DK as opposed to a warrior, then that is the choice you should make. But if you are going for endgame power, the choice should be warrior.

[dryankem]

I've played a fair bit of frost and a little on my wife's fury warrior and being on the more casual side of things I thought I would toss in my 2cents.

DK
2H frost feels strong, obliterate tears mobs a new one
Howling blast is a ranged AOE that cheeses the damage meter for any low level content or AOE situation.
Death grip is just a great feeling spell
Blood Offspec for anything you can't out dps (best soloer in the game)
However they are slow and they don't scale well on the highend of things (however low end like LFR or 5 mans they destroy things)

Warrior (from a fury POV)
Extremely mobile while in combat (this just feels great)
Do have a tanking Offspec but won't solo quite as well as a blood dk
Almost a 2 stage fighting style for fury (build up resources till colosus strike and then unload)
Love the 2 2handers

Try them both but 2H frost feels like a lumbering sledgehammer, while warriors feel like mobile weapons master IMO. You could also try a ret pally as they feel somewhere in between (again IMO). Either Warrior or DK can excel at higher ends but it may require you to switch the spec you don't enjoy.


PS - Forgot to add the best part about 2H frost DK running a blood offspec is that you can use all the same gear, where as a warrior you'll want to grab a shield and 1h but that's not so bad.

[Nero412]

Frost scales like crap in PvE. You will be one of the better dps in the 550-560 range, but once you get into heroics Frost is near the bottom. My guilds DKs rerolled Unholy once they got HWF weapons because it is significantly superior in damage at higher ilvl.

TG Fury is one of the highest dps atm, so yeah there's your answer on that.

[Larsadius Rex]

Thanks for the answers guys! I'm still wondering how frost is in the crits and down time departments. I really couldn't not care less how my dps is compared to other classes, I'm asking specifically if the class feels powerful. And by down time I mean in the rotation, not in how often I'll die haha. I like dryans answer, and it at seems that frost is definitely what I'm looking for, but I'm still just curious about how many crit mechanics the frost dk has and how often I'll be starting at my action bars waiting for something to do.

[scabobos]

Frost scales like crap in PvE. You will be one of the better dps in the 550-560 range, but once you get into heroics Frost is near the bottom. My guilds DKs rerolled Unholy once they got HWF weapons because it is significantly superior in damage at higher ilvl.

TG Fury is one of the highest dps atm, so yeah there's your answer on that.

This is just wrong, I hate all this hyperbole. DW frost is perfectly fine in heroic gear. I unfortunately can't raid anymore due to RL stuff, but in 582 gear I was keeping up just fine in my raids (13/14 heroic).

Can't speak for 2H frost, but if you're any good at all you should be able to do totally fine at DW frost in heroic SoO

[Shiira]

If you're dw frost and the rest of your guild is struggling to outperform you you're probably better than them.

Your anecdote is not more significant than tens of thousands of parses from other guilds.

[scabobos]

If you're dw frost and the rest of your guild is struggling to outperform you you're probably better than them.

Your anecdote is not more significant than tens of thousands of parses from other guilds.

Might be the case, but you're also assuming this guys guild is going to outperform him which isn't guaranteed. Maybe he's good? Point is, it is likely if you are any good that you will do just fine regardless of what you play. If you're just average then maybe not. If he's in a top 20 guild, ya he probably won't top the meters because you'd be playing with really talented people.

[dryankem]

Thanks for the answers guys! I'm still wondering how frost is in the crits and down time departments. I really couldn't not care less how my dps is compared to other classes, I'm asking specifically if the class feels powerful. And by down time I mean in the rotation, not in how often I'll die haha. I like dryans answer, and it at seems that frost is definitely what I'm looking for, but I'm still just curious about how many crit mechanics the frost dk has and how often I'll be starting at my action bars waiting for something to do.

Obliterates auto crit when you have killing machine proc which is quite frequent (every 30s as a real rough ballpark) and when that happens then I've seen crits in the 500k range (numbers will vary depending on gear and that was probably at 540-550 range if I remember right).

When I take a long break from my DK I find I'm staring at my bars a little too often but the more you play the more it becomes a feeling and you're less likely to tunnel vision your action bars.

Talking of downtime in rotation both warriors and DKs will have some downtime. Sometimes you're just out of runes or rage and have to wait a little but with good management (again this will come with experience) and Empower Rune Weapon it will be manageable. For warriors it's a 2 part cycle (at least for fury) where you slowly press stuff till you hit colossus smash and then wail away at your buttons for 30s and then back to slower paced attacking.

Talking about downtime while questing, both have very little since they both have a heal (glyph of dark succor for DKs and victory rush for warriors) after killing something so you basically want to keep on plowing through things to keep your health up (however warriors are slightly better for wanting to continuously killing things for health).


I haven't played my ret pally in ages but the best part of leveling him was practically zero downtime, I'd almost always come away from a fight with perfect health and mana. However Pallies do have a slower rotation and you're waiting on CDs rather than runes or rage, plus they don't feel as much of a sledgehammer in comparison to DKs. Only tossed this in since they are the final plate strength but they can be fun too.

[Darkfriend]

This is just wrong, I hate all this hyperbole. DW frost is perfectly fine in heroic gear. I unfortunately can't raid anymore due to RL stuff, but in 582 gear I was keeping up just fine in my raids (13/14 heroic).

Can't speak for 2H frost, but if you're any good at all you should be able to do totally fine at DW frost in heroic SoO

Your guild is bad in that case. My DK could compete on some fights when everyone was ~570 ilvl. Now it's near the bottom. My warrior, with 4 ilvls lower, sims 20k higher on shorter fights, and 40k higher on longer fights.

Anyone can stay competitive when playing against players who are worse than themselves.

DW is weak, when a 581 warrior sims 480k to a 586 dk simming 460 on WITH custom mods to the DK sim-c priority, assuming full AMS soaking every 35 seconds.

None of your arguments are valid. Anyone can play a spec better than poor players, that has no impact on how good the spec is. The fact is if you played a stronger class you'd do even better than those players, so it doesn't gain you anything.

I raided through 14/14H on a DW DK, as well as a TG fury warrior, and ran sims often to compare. DK scaling sucks, even if you don't know it.

[scabobos]

Your guild is bad in that case. My DK could compete on some fights when everyone was ~570 ilvl. Now it's near the bottom. My warrior, with 4 ilvls lower, sims 20k higher on shorter fights, and 40k higher on longer fights.

Anyone can stay competitive when playing against players who are worse than themselves.

DW is weak, when a 581 warrior sims 480k to a 586 dk simming 460 on WITH custom mods to the DK sim-c priority, assuming full AMS soaking every 35 seconds.

None of your arguments are valid. Anyone can play a spec better than poor players, that has no impact on how good the spec is. The fact is if you played a stronger class you'd do even better than those players, so it doesn't gain you anything.

I raided through 14/14H on a DW DK, as well as a TG fury warrior, and ran sims often to compare. DK scaling sucks, even if you don't know it.

I'm aware we "scale" poorly, but it doesn't change the fact that you can still play the class and not be a burden. Especially now that its on farm for most guilds that have that high of iLvl... who cares what you bring? Simming is not applicable to real world performance, proven time and time again.. its best case scenario played 100% perfectly, which nobody does. Yes we sim bad, yes we're not the best, but to imply that you can't even play the class is overboard, especially for someone who isnt ilvl 580+.

[Darkfriend]

I'm aware we "scale" poorly, but it doesn't change the fact that you can still play the class and not be a burden. Especially now that its on farm for most guilds that have that high of iLvl... who cares what you bring? Simming is not applicable to real world performance, proven time and time again.. its best case scenario played 100% perfectly, which nobody does. Yes we sim bad, yes we're not the best, but to imply that you can't even play the class is overboard, especially for someone who isnt ilvl 580+.

Oh ye, I agree. But I never said you can't play the class, just that it is pretty bad ATM. Hell, I play Arms on some fights because progression has been over for so long it doesn't matter.

[Shiira]

I'm aware we "scale" poorly, but it doesn't change the fact that you can still play the class and not be a burden. Especially now that its on farm for most guilds that have that high of iLvl... who cares what you bring?

All of this is relevant outside of farm as well, we have been pushing for blizzard to look at the issues that cause this during beta and it's not going well.

[Deleted]

If you want to see really big dps then start a fury warrior. Better melee dps than dk, arms is more of a pvp spec, and not that fun in pve, at least for me.
Warrior is an alt for me, and a DK is my main. Every time I'm playing with a Dk, i feel that "feel strong" feeling because I love the class. I'm raiding, and not that bad, but I'm playing Unholy not frost. It feels weaker than frost, but it do much better than frost in terms of dps.
So technically this question can only be answered by yourself, what you feel stronger, after testing them. For dps fury warrior, for the fun/lorefact that you are a death knight with awesome powers, or a warrior with huge strength.

[Jimjam38]

Dk's have great flavor in all 3 specs, and are just straight up fun: 2h frost 500k obliterates feel awesome and DW Howling Blasts cleave everything, you can just tear through anything out in the world with either, blood is the best casual tank in the game (and no one ever says no to any tank these days, no matter what the theorycrafting says) and feels indomitable in soloing and even more so in WoD when tank dps is more even and less reliant on vengance, and unholy feels like a freaking epic warlock warrior necromancer overlord that recks just about everything in pvp.
People will say that Dk's dont scale well, but they're not that bad, and unless you're in a hardcore hc guild where everyone really really knows their stuff, topping the meters always actually just comes down individual skill, not class. In just about every pug 10 and 25 man SoO I've done on my Unholy Dk I've topped the meters, sometimes I get beaten by others, but its not because of spec or gear(okay it is a bit about gear, but every spec will beat any spec 10ilevel lower than it), its about skill.

In fact, for PvE, every DPS spec is fairly balanced and completely viable; if something looks bad on raidbots or similar, its just unpopular, and really isn't that far behind in reality. The only thing that stands between some specs and a raidspot is misconceptions due to overwhelming popularity (frost vs unholy, demonology vs destro/afflict, Marksman vs Survival/Beast Mastery, etc), just tell them you're the popular spec for a spot and laugh when they realise you're not but still beat them in dps xD

I don't know much about warriors, but I do know they can't summon an army of the dead.

[Shiira]

but every spec will beat any spec 10ilevel lower than it

I wish class balance was good enough for this to be true.

[Nayami]

I only use Frost for leveling.
You see, I don't like playing the exact same thing since Pre-Cata patch ^_^

And OP, choose warrior, at least they're getting some changes in WoD where all frost got was Shadowfrost damage on Soul Reaper, such wow.

[Tylaeus]

Both Warriors and Frost DKs feel just as much like juggernauts as the other, and both are very good at it. Unholy is just as good damage-wise(Arguably overall better in PvP), but doesn't have the feel I think you're looking for. I play both Unholy/Frost and a bit of warrior and I have to say that Frost feels the best for this out of all of them.

[Larsadius Rex]

I'm loving these responses! Looks like I'll definitely be joining your guys' ranks when I resub for WoD, hopefully you'll like my sacrifice and accept me into your circle