2H ENH shammy?

[Deleted]

R.I.P



What I don't get is: Yeah, 2h wasn't viable since a LONG time. But why start breaking additional abilities now?
What's the point in making Stormstrike unavailable with 2h weapons now?

[Raiju]

What I don't get is: Yeah, 2h wasn't viable since a LONG time. But why start breaking additional abilities now?
What's the point in making Stormstrike unavailable with 2h weapons now?

I'm guessing to make the game as retardproof and streamlined as possible, at the cost of other peoples enjoyment.

[TidesOfBlood]

I'm guessing to make the game as retardproof and streamlined as possible, at the cost of other peoples enjoyment.

Probably right. In vanilla, if you pvp'd with a 2h, all you had to do was frost shock and auto attack with your occasional purge.

I guess Blizz wanted to retire this gameplay http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja1j7xWpB3w&t=0m20s when they introduced windfury cooldown at the beginning of TBC.

[Raiju]

Probably right. In vanilla, if you pvp'd with a 2h, all you had to do was frost shock and auto attack with your occasional purge.

I guess Blizz wanted to retire this gameplay http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja1j7xWpB3w&t=0m20s when they introduced windfury cooldown at the beginning of TBC.

Well it's quite clear that 2h COULD be made both reasonable and viable using current mechanics imposed on 2h's with a 'number tweak' passive like everyone else has who can both DW and 2h. It wouldn't really hurt anyone - they just don't want to.

[jayinjersey]

Yeah its the same reason they give for why we can't use Swords...


They just don't want to

[Raiju]

Yeah its the same reason they give for why we can't use Swords...


They just don't want to

Swords is a lot more reasonable than 2H - no mechanics actually need changing or balancing and we aren't really in line with other melee weapon wise. The argument that ele would have too many weapon options is a hilarious one at best.

[jayinjersey]

"reasonable" has never been a good argument against Blizzard

[Ripitgood]

Yeah if only it was as simple as changing a those few things.

Sigh.

This is why devs cop so much flak. People have absolutely no idea about what happens in the background.

At this point/post, You've taken what you tried to make a legit arguement. And then threw it all into the wind with the "Devs cop so much flack, people have absolutley no idea what happens in the background".

A) You're right, 90% of people have no idea. However, That's a double-edged sword, They have no idea, and truthfully they don't. Excluding the obvious reasons, I doubt the devs (who currently deal with all our crap to start with, want us back-seat deving).

B) The Devs, Are just that, The DEVS, They're the developers, They're going to spent countless WORK hours developing content, That could get just thrown out, Or never used, Or like old content, Used and never seen again.

C) In a previous post you staated "The Devs said they're NOT going to bring back 2handed Enhanc". Can we see proof of that? Can you show us that post?

D) It would make LOADS of sense to bring 2handed Enhanc back, So many people miss the play style, And just the option to mix it up. I know people who would play to just PVP that way again alone, Not including the PVE stuff. Like a previous Post said, Add a glyph that just gives us a 2handed weapon look, we could all deal haha.

Now, Does that mean any of these changes will happen? God no, Do I and others wish, Sure.

Does that mean you should continue what was a very interesting discussion, instead of you trying to cop out with the "eh, they just don't understand". Basically.

[Hekili]

What I don't get is: Yeah, 2h wasn't viable since a LONG time. But why start breaking additional abilities now?
What's the point in making Stormstrike unavailable with 2h weapons now?

It's to break weapon-swap macros. You can get by pretty well by just macro'ing your DW when its time to Lava Lash, and then swapping back for Stormstrike.

Stormstrike needs its tooltip properly checked so it greys out like Lava Lash, if they're going to stick with this change. Which they probably will.

[Murderdoll]

C) In a previous post you staated "The Devs said they're NOT going to bring back 2handed Enhanc". Can we see proof of that? Can you show us that post?
.

Theyve said it on numerous occasions, some very recently. I am not going to spend hours pouring through tweets and forum posts to satisfy your need to revive a dead playstyle.

[Raiju]

Theyve said it on numerous occasions, some very recently. I am not going to spend hours pouring through tweets and forum posts to satisfy your need to revive a dead playstyle.

The argument for removing 2H equip-ability is about as solid as the argument for everything else that's getting cut in WoD. (It isn't)

I don't give a damn about 2h but it's not like it being there really hurt anyone. It wasn't competitive but people could have fun with it. The fact WW got 1h vs 2h viability and given LL is pretty much our only ability that would have to be changed noticeably outside of a Passive to even out the numbers is hilarious at best.

The devs didn't want to, but I think WoD has proven very well what the devs said even last year has no basis on whats happening now - especially with how many internal changes must be going on to cause such delays (and people leaving, and the fact they only just brought people back on, etc). What happens next year?

Your word on year old quotes mean absolutely nothing in light of current events, really. We won't see it in WoD, but doesn't disqualify it in later expansions.

[Vintersol]

As a player who played a shaman in early classic, i would love to see a comeback of 2H. The main problem i see is the current itemization. 2H Maces/Axes/Swords don't have agility as a stat anymore, because they are intended to be used by plate classes which using strength. It must not be competitive for high end raiding or serious pvp, but restricting most of the abilities only working with dual wield is bad. Therefore they should remove the ability to use 2h, because it's useless (unless for style ofc).

[Potsu]

Nonono Thyr, always let us use 2h. How can I play my arcanite ripper or sport my Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros on my shaman otherwise?

The implementation of Enh over every expansion has been heavily focused on Dual Wielding with 0 time paid to 2h. If that wasn't a clear indication, from a gameplay perspective, that 2h Enh is dead, I don't know what is.

[Raiju]

Nonono Thyr, always let us use 2h. How can I play my arcanite ripper or sport my Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros on my shaman otherwise?

The implementation of Enh over every expansion has been heavily focused on Dual Wielding with 0 time paid to 2h. If that wasn't a clear indication, from a gameplay perspective, that 2h Enh is dead, I don't know what is.

Except the fact we're going back to wrath style of play - and a lot of classes and mechanics are being 'turned back' to be more comparable to their TBC style. That is the POINT of warlords of draenor, to bring back the veterans. That is what they are advertising.

[Vintersol]

The implementation of Enh over every expansion has been heavily focused on Dual Wielding with 0 time paid to 2h. If that wasn't a clear indication, from a gameplay perspective, that 2h Enh is dead, I don't know what is.

Sad but true. I clearly dislike if things get removed, rather than improved.

[Ripitgood]

As a player who played a shaman in early classic, i would love to see a comeback of 2H. The main problem i see is the current itemization. 2H Maces/Axes/Swords don't have agility as a stat anymore, because they are intended to be used by plate classes which using strength. It must not be competitive for high end raiding or serious pvp, but restricting most of the abilities only working with dual wield is bad. Therefore they should remove the ability to use 2h, because it's useless (unless for style ofc).

I read a shaman change somewhere, Pretty sure a general "Here are the WoD shaman changes place' that we now get AP based a 1:1 ratio from both Agility and Strength. So theoretically we could use those same weapons.

Agility is obviously the better throughput stat as it provides Crit % as well.

- - - Updated - - -

Theyve said it on numerous occasions, some very recently. I am not going to spend hours pouring through tweets and forum posts to satisfy your need to revive a dead playstyle.

Well, I for one enjoy the cold hard facts, And I've not found a post stating that anywhere. So, We'll chalk it up in the "BS" category (until you or someone can show proof of it) and continue our discussion.

[Lavindar]

I read a shaman change somewhere, Pretty sure a general "Here are the WoD shaman changes place' that we now get AP based a 1:1 ratio from both Agility and Strength. So theoretically we could use those same weapons.

Agility is obviously the better throughput stat as it provides Crit % as well.

- - - Updated - - -



Well, I for one enjoy the cold hard facts, And I've not found a post stating that anywhere. So, We'll chalk it up in the "BS" category (until you or someone can show proof of it) and continue our discussion.

Agility doesn't give critical rating anymore, and if I am not wrong we don't get AP from strength anymore.

[jayinjersey]

There was also the rumor that Strength, Agility, Intelligence would be moved off weapons and Attack Power/Spell Power put in its place...


That clears up that conflict as well.

[Lavindar]

There was also the rumor that Strength, Agility, Intelligence would be moved off weapons and Attack Power/Spell Power put in its place...


That clears up that conflict as well.

It would indeed made a lot of sense, end would end making everyone having more choice, we would have then just melee weapons and caster weapons (techinicaly daggers and ranged weapons, but they are kinda an exception here).

[Omanley]

The implementation of Enh over every expansion has been heavily focused on Dual Wielding with 0 time paid to 2h. If that wasn't a clear indication, from a gameplay perspective, that 2h Enh is dead, I don't know what is.

Not really. None of our abilities are designed in a way that makes it impossible, or even hard, to make it work for 2h. All that really matters is blizzard's attitude towards the matter. What kills 2h is nothing other than blizzard's "we dont want you to do it" attitude, nothing else.
Example:

Lava Lash (prime example): They basically go "screw you, no using this with 2h weapon". All they would have to do is remove that restriction, and as the base make LL work as if you were holding a 1h weapon in your offhand with the same ilvl as the 2h you're holding. Either that, or lower the weapon damage percentage accordingly.

Windfury: Less attacks, less procs (but stronger ones). It balances itself out just like it does with auto hits. No work needed.
Flametongue: Allow 2h weapons to benefit from both imbues (both part of a passive come WoD). Easy. The damage is already relative to weapon speed, so no problem there.

Imbues in general: Extra attacks (SS+LL) happen as often with 2h as with dw, but deal more damage with 2h. HOWEVER, wf will proc more often with a faster 1h, and there'll be more auto hits in general, making...

MSW: ...more procs in dw. This could be solved by buffing the ppm rate while weilding a 2h though. Even with a buffed chance though, a single 2h strike cannot proc more than one charge, so dw would likely be stronger still for msw, even with a buffed ppm.

SS: Would be equal in terms of base damage, whereas dw allows for one more strike/msw proc, but lower imbue damage.

Spells (Shocks/LB/EB/FN/Fire Totems): No changes needed

So it basically comes down to 2h doing a little bit more imbue damage through SS/LL, and dw allowing for more msw procs. Juggle a little bit with the msw proc rate for 2h, and I am sure 2h could be a reasonably strong alternative, that could've been kept at ~1-5% weaker to make a 2h of higher ilvl still an upgrade, but not the optimum. Realistically, one of the two would be stronger, and while I love both, I'd prefer dw to remain the stronger. We need two weapons for it, which should be rewarded with better numbers. The numbers would probably be neglectable in pvp, and a higher msw ppm could actually make 2h pull ahead there, assuming low uptime (very likely).

So...no. They did not kill 2h through designing everything around dw. They just chose to exclude 2h by planting restrictions (no LL with 2h, no SS with 2h in WoD...) and chose to stick to that, no matter how many players cling to that old design. ...Which is fine too, if they at least added swords for enh for more choices. Being left out of crafted weapons or drops everyone else is allowed to use except us leaves a bitter taste, and there's a hundred awesome looking swords as well, some of which look very shamanistic.