[Holy] WoD Alpha/Beta Info & Discussion

[Tiberria]

The tuning that is coming is likely a huge nerf to Eternal Flame, and possibly a buff to LoD based on his Twitter comments.

[Diggy]

I just read Celestalon's tweet and how he thinks that trying to maximize the HP generation is some sort of a hard core min/max strategy. I'm genuinely.... frazzled.

Every class in the game that uses some sort of a secondary resource ( Holy Power, Chi, whatever the hell warlocks are using, Shadow orbs, Runes) tries to maximize the generation of said resources. It is nothing new. It is something that lower end players should know. Celestalon denying this tells me that he is either VERY much out of touch or he is straight up lying. It seems like we would have to wait for people to quit playing their class like in the beginning of MoP for Blizzard to realize that there is something wrong in the mechanics.

I tweeted him the condensed version of that, but I guess you have to host a podcast and/or have a british accent these days to get some sort of response.

[Keiyra]

The only time this was ever abused was for MSV for Gara'jal the Spirtbinder (I don't know any other fights beside that one where that would be applicable). I don't think it was a HUGE deal and blizzard probably doesn't see it being a problem in the future either???

If there was no Forbearance, it would've been abuse on Thok. Chain BoP a healer to keep em spamming heals. Hands will always need some sort of "debuff" to prevent reapplication to discourage chain casting them for abuse. (Similar logic for why weakened soul exists for PW: Shield) - granted Forbearance may not be the most elegant way to accomplish that end. It probably exists for pvp implications as well.

[Deleted]

If there was no Forbearance, it would've been abuse on Thok. Chain BoP a healer to keep em spamming heals. Hands will always need some sort of "debuff" to prevent reapplication to discourage chain casting them for abuse. (Similar logic for why weakened soul exists for PW: Shield) - granted Forbearance may not be the most elegant way to accomplish that end. It probably exists for pvp implications as well.

During progress people generally 7 healed the fight, you could just cast it on other targets rather than chaining it on the same person. The only reason why forbearance exists is because of pvp.

[Freia]

I just read Celestalon's tweet and how he thinks that trying to maximize the HP generation is some sort of a hard core min/max strategy. I'm genuinely.... frazzled.

Every class in the game that uses some sort of a secondary resource ( Holy Power, Chi, whatever the hell warlocks are using, Shadow orbs, Runes) tries to maximize the generation of said resources. It is nothing new. It is something that lower end players should know. Celestalon denying this tells me that he is either VERY much out of touch or he is straight up lying. It seems like we would have to wait for people to quit playing their class like in the beginning of MoP for Blizzard to realize that there is something wrong in the mechanics.

I tweeted him the condensed version of that, but I guess you have to host a podcast and/or have a british accent these days to get some sort of response.

Yea I didn't really understand his whole idea that macroing Beacon of Faith to HL and FoL playstyle some big test of skill. It made me laugh.

He did kind of acknowledge the other talents needed tuning so BoF wasn't so far ahead. Not holding my breath for big changes, but it is something.

[Juicyjonny]

I am curious... what do you think can be altered and influenced at this point? Realistically speaking.

Numbers... things that they can tune without causing mass chaos. You think them developing spells, abilities and changing play style is easy for them? Like most people they want to take the easy road.

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If there was no Forbearance, it would've been abuse on Thok. Chain BoP a healer to keep em spamming heals. Hands will always need some sort of "debuff" to prevent reapplication to discourage chain casting them for abuse. (Similar logic for why weakened soul exists for PW: Shield) - granted Forbearance may not be the most elegant way to accomplish that end. It probably exists for pvp implications as well.

Lol if you had that many paladins to chain bop healers then you have as many paladins to cast Devo aura which is far more effective.

[MCC]

Numbers... things that they can tune without causing mass chaos. You think them developing spells, abilities and changing play style is easy for them? Like most people they want to take the easy road.

First, no amount of number tweaking will fix bad mechanics without breaking something else in the process. Second, I don't think any of us gives a damn about what is easy and what is difficult for the dev team. They get paid for finding solutions to problems, and what they are doing now is refusing to recognize that the problem exists in the first place.

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Celestalon denying this tells me that he is either VERY much out of touch or he is straight up lying.

I don't think he's lying. I do think he is very confident that they have done the right thing and he is ignoring all and any feedback that might indicate otherwise.

It seems like we would have to wait for people to quit playing their class like in the beginning of MoP for Blizzard to realize that there is something wrong in the mechanics.

Yes, of course. The problem is this: their traditional wait time for that sort of stuff is the duration of a single content patch, so by the time they get off their asses to address the problem, the damage is already done.

And even that might not be enough. You know how holy paladins aren't exactly doing all that well in the higher arena brackets on live? They are still refusing to recognize this as a problem because enough of them are concentrated in the lower brackets. I would imagine that even if every single mystic-level guild benches their holy paladins, there will still be enough of them raiding with guilds that don't know any better, and nothing will be done again.

There is another thing to consider, too. Proving Grounds. At one point they said they intended to use the results of PGs to tune individual specs against each other. Here's hoping they will see the light once PG rankings start rolling in.

[Smitus]

There is another thing to consider, too. Proving Grounds. At one point they said they intended to use the results of PGs to tune individual specs against each other. Here's hoping they will see the light once PG rankings start rolling in.

Please source this, as I've never heard of them saying anything of the sort

[Freia]

Has anyone done proving grounds recently? I know early beta people were complaining that damage was so high the tank was getting gibbed through sac/cooldowns.

[Bloodorem]

i wont post something negative, remember, you are the Holy Protector, a stronghold of light, nothing can destroy you!

im sure blizzard....


...thinks?

[MCC]

Another patch, still no changes for Holy.

Just sayin'.

[Tiberria]

Another patch, still no changes for Holy.

Just sayin'.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/3...design-status/

We’re to the point where we're pretty confident in each spec’s ability set, and so we're switching over to focusing on bugfixes, stability, and polish. Mechanical changes from now on will primarily be to solve tuning problems

Basically, it's probably time to give up expecting changes to the core class mechanics, especially given that just last night, Celestalon said that he thought the current Beacon of Faith/macro thing was "great design" and an "advanced playstyle" and that he feels that the "quintessential healing style for Paladins is to Beacon a tank, heal the party with HL/WoG/LoD."

[xiloclipse]

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/3...design-status/

We’re to the point where we're pretty confident in each spec’s ability set, and so we're switching over to focusing on bugfixes, stability, and polish. Mechanical changes from now on will primarily be to solve tuning problems

Basically, it's probably time to give up expecting changes to the core class mechanics, especially given that just last night, Celestalon said that he thought the current Beacon of Faith/macro thing was "great design" and an "advanced playstyle" and that he feels that the "quintessential healing style for Paladins is to Beacon a tank, heal the party with HL/WoG/LoD."

I think you are squandering your time posting here unnecessarily, and at this point any further padding for a resume as a class developer at Blizzard seems excessive. I would try to interview as soon as possible, preferably in time to bring your current experience and knowledge to as many classes as possible in WoD, especially one's that you don't play. It takes a truly great player to be able to offer such insights, and I think you are denying your benefit to the community as a whole by limiting yourself to posting at mmochampion.

[Virsta1]

Has anyone done proving grounds recently? I know early beta people were complaining that damage was so high the tank was getting gibbed through sac/cooldowns.

I have not touched these in a while. I went in tonight. I think last time it was super rough to get gold. It was a breeze tonight. I was not abusing IH stacking either if that is even still a thing. Didn't CC a single mob until endless. Got to wave 10 in endless with relative ease. Stopped after that because PG's are really boring.

PvP gear toon.

[MCC]

Looks like I was wrong when I said there was no changes for holy. Intended or not, but that 1 second cooldown on EF is gone. The tooltip hasn't changed, but EF is spammable once again.

[Perkunas]

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/3...design-status/

We’re to the point where we're pretty confident in each spec’s ability set, and so we're switching over to focusing on bugfixes, stability, and polish. Mechanical changes from now on will primarily be to solve tuning problems

Basically, it's probably time to give up expecting changes to the core class mechanics, especially given that just last night, Celestalon said that he thought the current Beacon of Faith/macro thing was "great design" and an "advanced playstyle" and that he feels that the "quintessential healing style for Paladins is to Beacon a tank, heal the party with HL/WoG/LoD."

As a Holy Paladin who only PVP's because Holy Radiance is a spell that should be on a 15 second cooldown and not the alpha spell for this class I am all about this double beacon Holy Light the raid style. I might actually PVE on my Paladin again. People are acting like the sky is falling because the class is going back to relying on Holy Light as it's primary healing spell?

[xiloclipse]

As a Holy Paladin who only PVP's because Holy Radiance is a spell that should be on a 15 second cooldown and not the alpha spell for this class I am all about this double beacon Holy Light the raid style. I might actually PVE on my Paladin again. People are acting like the sky is falling because the class is going back to relying on Holy Light as it's primary healing spell?

I think the general concern is over being locked into one talent in the 2 most important healing tiers, the lack of ANY synergy between EF and LoD, extremely poor movement, and a generally clunky play style. Holy rad is effectively useless. Has anyone perhaps come across a holy paladin in a top 10 world guild that has expressed satisfaction or comfort with the current state of holy paladin?

The last time holy light was spammed, I don't think there even were finishers to be concerned with. I don't think anyone yearns for such dynamic days past.

I've found that most of the people satisfied with where hpally is, either A, don't play one, B. are just happy they were doing well on a meter, or C take their ability to kill a boss or clear a dungeon as a sign of viability in high level progression. I'm not saying it is omfg terrible, but it isn't viable in high level raiding, in the sense that when choosing 4 healers, there will rarely be an instance where you would bring a paladin. Do you see very many in test videos from top guilds? That is perhaps concerning to me, unless there is a super secret world stage progression hpally union that is currently on strike, protesting celestalon's poor attempt at revitalizing this class.

What is sad, is that rather than attempt to create synergy between LoD and EF, they've done things like the t17 tier bonus, or likely the next solution, simply nerf EF until you are left keeping EF on 1-3 targets, and dumping everything else with LoD, or perhaps not casting EF at all. It would be so easy to create a viable and dynamic playstyle that used EF and LoD.

[MCC]

I have not touched these in a while. I went in tonight. I think last time it was super rough to get gold. It was a breeze tonight. I was not abusing IH stacking either if that is even still a thing. Didn't CC a single mob until endless. Got to wave 10 in endless with relative ease. Stopped after that because PG's are really boring.

PvP gear toon.

Confirming Virsta1's observations. Gold and below is trivial. Endless feels much easier: didn't use CC or throughput cooldowns at all, got to wave 11 with 50% mana, got to wave 21 with no mana left, lost wave 23 after I finally ran OOM (didn't have any ambers on me).

[Perkunas]

I think the general concern is over being locked into one talent in the 2 most important healing tiers, the lack of ANY synergy between EF and LoD, extremely poor movement, and a generally clunky play style. Holy rad is effectively useless. Has anyone perhaps come across a holy paladin in a top 10 world guild that has expressed satisfaction or comfort with the current state of holy paladin?

The last time holy light was spammed, I don't think there even were finishers to be concerned with. I don't think anyone yearns for such dynamic days past.

I've found that most of the people satisfied with where hpally is, either A, don't play one, B. are just happy they were doing well on a meter, or C take their ability to kill a boss or clear a dungeon as a sign of viability in high level progression. I'm not saying it is omfg terrible, but it isn't viable in high level raiding, in the sense that when choosing 4 healers, there will rarely be an instance where you would bring a paladin. Do you see very many in test videos from top guilds? That is perhaps concerning to me, unless there is a super secret world stage progression hpally union that is currently on strike, protesting celestalon's poor attempt at revitalizing this class.

What is sad, is that rather than attempt to create synergy between LoD and EF, they've done things like the t17 tier bonus, or likely the next solution, simply nerf EF until you are left keeping EF on 1-3 targets, and dumping everything else with LoD, or perhaps not casting EF at all. It would be so easy to create a viable and dynamic playstyle that used EF and LoD.

I don't care which finisher they buff so long as Radiance is relegated to only emergency AoE damage in favor of Holy Light and Flash. I simply prefer the PVE Holy Pally to perform more like the PVP version. If that's the only issue you guys are upset about I'm more than content for them to make a synergy between the two finishers so spamming one only isn't optimal.

[nightfalls]

I don't care which finisher they buff so long as Radiance is relegated to only emergency AoE damage in favor of Holy Light and Flash. I simply prefer the PVE Holy Pally to perform more like the PVP version. If that's the only issue you guys are upset about I'm more than content for them to make a synergy between the two finishers so spamming one only isn't optimal.

Yes, Radiance probably shouldn't be the go-to ability in most situations. That's a problem of the current Holy Power design and not because Radiance is too strong (LOL) but rather because Divine Light and Flash of Light are pointless. For the SAME mana, Divine Light on Live, heals for 2.3 times Holy Radiance when it's cast on a single target. But it doesn't give Holy Power unless it's on Beacon. At 2 targets, the Holy Power from HR already makes it better (unless you move Beacon), at 3 it's just always better. It's a problem of Divine Light being too weak.

Thankfully, in 6.0 so far, the single target abilities are now costing what they really should in terms of mana: A lot less than the AoE. That's a good change and was made for most classes. That alone will already make ST heals a lot more worth casting.

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But at the same time, if a clump of raiders are all taking damage, you should use your AoE ability. Not your single target ability. The latter makes no sense, but right now, it's more worth it to use your ST ability. It's just as counter-intuitive and bad as the previous situation, where you used your AoE even when only 1-2 targets were really damaged.

So HR needs a buff to, yes, make it worth using if it won't overheal and will hit at least 4-5 targets (3 was actually the design goal announced in a blog, but I doubt that sentiment is still there).

And yes, if you are healing a raid of 20 players, I'm sorry, but you should expect to use your AoE. Otherwise you don't belong in a raid, and should stick to PvP. This is coming from someone that plays and enjoys playing both.

Other healers don't expect their classes to do the same things in PvP and PvE, and with good reason.