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  1. #1

    about WoD spec guides

    *Skip the quote to avoid the overly detailed wall of text*
    I know that there's no guides yet, and that there won't be until very late beta or even early live, that's not what this is about.

    This is about the writing of the guides themselves. Priest guides that is.

    Specifically, that there needs to be a significant section that deals with the actual gameplay of the spec. So often I read a guide that goes into great detail on the talents, glyphs, stat priority, reforging, geming, enchanting, BiS and sometimes even the race and profession choices, but don't actually talk about how to play the spec. Often they will include a brief section on 'rotation', or more commonly these days, 'priority', but this generally doesnt actually delve into the real substance of playing the spec.
    Healers spec guides tend to be a little better on this point, they often describe major abilities and give a general outline of when each spell should be used, eg, "Flash Heal is a fast, expensive, strong heal. Use it for emergencies and very heavy damage on a specific target, usually a tank." is the kind of thing you might find.

    However, I still haven't seen many guides that really explain how the spec should be played, what you should spend the most time doing, what things are the most critical and which are more trivial, what the focus should be on and what separates the good from the bad, and the good from the best.

    A good example might be some of Sparkkugs' warlock guides from late mop. These cover all the usual parts mentioned above, but then they explain, almost in too much detail (bah no such thing as too much detail...) the rotation, how it changes for additional targets, snapshotting, the opener, movement and so on. Its been a while since ive checked them so my memory might be a bit different to reality, but you get the idea.

    There's no real 5.4 disc guides featured here, but we've all seen them before, there's plenty of them out there. Generally they all addressed the talents, the better ones would even talk about which level 90 to use in what encounter type. Most would talk about stats, geming and reforing and enchanting, a really decent one might mention spirit, mana regen and the t45 talents. Most would discuss or at least overview the various abilities (Heal, Flash Heal, Greater Heal, PoH, PoM, PW:S, Spirit Shell, the t90 if it wasnt covered in the talent, the better ones would mention archangel). As someone who was halfway through writing a disc guide before I realized it was so late in the peace that there was no real point in finishing it (I still might just cause reasons), I can say with pretty good confidence that very, very few guides talked about the significance of being an absorb spec, when and why to use spirit shell, very few actually explained just how important the t90 talents are, hardly any at all talked about the place of atonement and many that did mention it got it wrong (*cough icyveins, cough*).
    I cant remember reading any that talked in detail about timing archangel, when to hold on to it and why and how long in order to maintain as much uptime as possible. I dont think I saw a single guide that talked about targeting adds for increased tof uptime. I didnt see any that talked about what to spend most of your time doing and what a typical log/recount should look like. I'm getting carried away now, but you get the point.

    I can't really comment on shadow or holy guides that much, but one thing I will say about shadow, when I was looking for some shadow guides to improve my off-spec performance, I couldnt ever find one that talked about shapshotting in any useful detail. Obviously snapshotting is a big deal for shadow, but newcomers to the spec or game might not know that, or even how it works. At the time I had a vague comprehension of it, but not nearly enough to make use of it, and having had very little opportunity to play my off-spec, im still pretty foggy on the finer details of shadow. Other things too, like the details around the priority during insanity and you have things like SWD, MB procs, refreshing dots, priority when there are multiple targets, priority during insanity when there are multiple targets and you have SWD, MB procs, trink procs, dots to refresh. I still don't know if tof snapshots, and I dont know things like are haste procs more important than int procs, if you snapshot one and then the other happens but the first proc has ended, do you refresh or not?
    Well, I guess i should have probably just gotten affdots for shadow, but these are still things important enough to be in a guide, and yet I didnt see it mentioned(doesnt mean there arent any guides that talk about it, just that the ones I read didnt).
    I know I'm starting to sound a bit too critical, and I appologise to anyone who has written guides who I may have offended, that isn't my intention. My purpose in saying all of this is to bring it to the attention of anyone who is planning on writing a WoD guide so that they can consider adding or expanding on their gameplay section because I believe its just as important as the rest of the guide.
    Last edited by Jimjam38; 2014-09-01 at 08:17 AM. Reason: wall of text
    Disc Priests: Just 2 mana trinkets away from becoming Withered

  2. #2
    You have some really good ideas for a guide. Sounds like you should write one!
    Last edited by Mctriple; 2014-09-02 at 11:49 PM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Mctriple View Post
    You have some really good ideas for a guide. Sounds like you should write one!
    Well I actually have a half written disc guide on my pc, but I realized that since MoP is pretty much over there was no point finishing.
    Disc Priests: Just 2 mana trinkets away from becoming Withered

  4. #4
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Thanks I'll keep that in mind when I do my Shadow guide, Atonement

    If you want to write the disc guide for WoD, nobody has offered to do it yet

    Edit: Well, a guy offered a couple months ago, but then I never heard from him or saw him post again - so I assume he vanished.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2014-09-03 at 03:52 AM.
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  5. #5
    I'd be glad to write it but I dont have beta access if thats an issue(even though so much can still change) and I'm uncertain as to when I'll feel like I had compiled enough information and experience. I will definately be getting on the PTR as soon as its available. Most likely I would start with a basic one as early as I felt appropriate and then update it later for a more complete and comprehensive version. How fast do you guys usually get them out?
    Disc Priests: Just 2 mana trinkets away from becoming Withered

  6. #6
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Whenever writers are ready to release them

    Usually I wait until what looks like a final build and then just spend a night ranting out every topic I can think of - post that ASAP - and then edit it for clarity over the following weeks as the expansion starts
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  7. #7
    Sounds good. On another note, I coined a term on the Dk forums and at this rate I'll actually see it in guides once we go live, since blizzard doesnt seem to be fixing the abomination of unholy playstyle that I dubbed festersimple. I wouldn't even be mad if it stayed just because my name for it happened to stick.
    Disc Priests: Just 2 mana trinkets away from becoming Withered

  8. #8
    DKs are having much less changes. The biggest change for DKs is tanking. So they can eventually fix old things to simulate and test it, and come up with new values, in compare to some other classes that are getting huge revamp with things like No-More-Snapshotting etc.
    Plus DKs testing community is much bigger, in compare to others, because they have more resources and events(!) to stick the brightest community minds around.
    Whereas we have what, MMOC obviously, howtopriest.com, some private blogs, sentrytotem and some ancient vocabularies with outdated knowledge like icyveins.
    When I am thinking of DK community giving theorycrafting, the list of nicknames involved and open to conversation is over 15 in my memory, whereas I can calculate, shadow priest theorycrafters I am aware of by mentioned services, it's less than ten?
    Quote Originally Posted by Drye View Post
    It forces you to double tap. that's it. It's a great change.
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    It's just so you can say you tapped something twice that day.

  9. #9
    Unholy was a pretty big snapshotting spec. With good procs diseases would tick for more than double their usual ammount, and blood plague is usually the top damage, or close to it. Anyway, functionally unholy didn't require much changing and got a new shiny in the form of necrosis too, but Frost was in a pretty terrible spot.
    From the various specs and classes that I've followed, I've reached the conclusion that almost every spec has had the same experience with the WoD beta that we have: blizzard asks for feedback, they provide it in great detail and then some, blizzard ignores it and makes terrible changes then tells them not to cry the sky is falling.
    Disc Priests: Just 2 mana trinkets away from becoming Withered

  10. #10
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minoan View Post
    MMOC obviously, howtopriest.com, some private blogs, sentrytotem and some ancient vocabularies with outdated knowledge like icyveins.
    When I am thinking of DK community giving theorycrafting, the list of nicknames involved and open to conversation is over 15 in my memory, whereas I can calculate, shadow priest theorycrafters I am aware of by mentioned services, it's less than ten?
    I'm not sure the number of nicknames is proportional to the quality of theorycrafting ;p Neither is the number of websites - consolidation of the theorycrafting community onto fewer forums is, if anything, a sign of a more mature and effective theory-crafting community: rather than being split across 10+ sites/blogs.

    It's also worth mentioning that a decent chunk of the early MoP Unholy and Blood math was posted by a DK in my guild - who came to me for help when the DK community was only guessing at when dot snapshots (unholy) and mastery vs stamina (blood) were actually worthwhile: so a Spriest co-authored some pretty important parts of DK maths this expansion Twintop (spriest) also has a pretty big hand in SimCraft - so I wouldn't be surprised to learn he's similarly (or more) influenced DK maths there as well.
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  11. #11
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    I've always advocated that you should improve your play before worrying about your character if you want to become a better player and do more DPS. I wrote a guide about it a long time ago. I also wrote some guide which I submitted to H2P but never got posted and I had some other which I wrote for Hydramist.

    People just like theorycrafting and gear optimizations because it's easy. It's an easy way to increase your DPS. However, learning how to play the actual game will increase your DPS much more but no one seems to like to do that. It's unfortunate.

  12. #12
    o/ Ariadne!

    Good point, gear/optimising/rotation/"the basics" can only get you so far.

    As it seems that the OP is thinking more in terms of healing guilds thought I'd chime in.

    Some of the biggest factors contributing to playing a healing class well doesn't just come from knowing the class. In my opinion it also comes from knowledge of encounters, knowing how to prioritise healing and communication.

    With changes to classes that have occurred through each expansion, preparation and preemptive play has become more key for healing, reactive healing is still there but people of most skill levels can accomplish this to a decent degree. Taking full advantage of class mechanics is so important in being ready for different types of damage patterns. So knowing boss mechanics, knowing and getting a feel for timers/mechanic thresholds is very important.

    Knowing how to prioritise healing is important too for efficient and effective healing. Its easy if you have been set to tank healing for example they are your highest priority healing targets. But what about when it comes to triage/spot healing while you raid heal? being able to think quickly about healing these players can avoid deaths (knowing fights and damage patterns ties in here!)

    Being able to communicate with your fellow healers/raid members is also really important. You can ask for help on a ask if needed, calling when you are not in range of tanks or that a dps might have gone stray and out if range of healers.

    Of course knowing your class, what spells to use to react/preempt to situations and knowing the synergy of your toolkit is important but there are so many other factors for the healing game, and I do consider it to be somewhat its own game.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    I've always advocated that you should improve your play before worrying about your character if you want to become a better player and do more DPS. I wrote a guide about it a long time ago. I also wrote some guide which I submitted to H2P but never got posted and I had some other which I wrote for Hydramist.

    People just like theorycrafting and gear optimizations because it's easy. It's an easy way to increase your DPS. However, learning how to play the actual game will increase your DPS much more but no one seems to like to do that. It's unfortunate.
    I agree. I've always focused on what buttons to press and when because that's what really matters. Regemming and adjusting enchants really doesn't do much compared to playing optimally. I know I'll be focusing on the practical side of shadow again in WoD, like I have in MoP.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    I'm not sure the number of nicknames is proportional to the quality of theorycrafting ;p Neither is the number of websites - consolidation of the theorycrafting community onto fewer forums is, if anything, a sign of a more mature and effective theory-crafting community: rather than being split across 10+ sites/blogs.

    It's also worth mentioning that a decent chunk of the early MoP Unholy and Blood math was posted by a DK in my guild - who came to me for help when the DK community was only guessing at when dot snapshots (unholy) and mastery vs stamina (blood) were actually worthwhile: so a Spriest co-authored some pretty important parts of DK maths this expansion Twintop (spriest) also has a pretty big hand in SimCraft - so I wouldn't be surprised to learn he's similarly (or more) influenced DK maths there as well.
    Actually, most of the DK community is consolidated into #acherus, where we organize things and spread them to as many sites as we can. Also, Mendenbarr is the guy that works on the DK SimC module and has made most of the DK DPS sims and math post MoP launch, so I'm not sure Twintop had that much of a hand in DK theorycrafting. And I am curious about which DK you are referring to? The only one I remember involved in DK math was Euliat and Tyvi from early MoP, with Mendenbarr and Reniat taking over later.

    Anyhow, to come back on point being discussed, the #acherus channel is a lot more open than forums and creates the opportunity for a lot more people to get involved in the theorycrafting and cooperate. It also insures everyone is on the same page at all time. Combined with the dev interaction and insight, it's not surprising that we end up with more people sharing and participating in theorycrafting and discussions.

    @OP I agree. When I picked up Shadow in January I was very lost and none of the guides anywhere really helped me. I only got to play Shadow half-decently by watching a LOT of videos, looking at logs, digging through theorycrafting and asking for help in a few places. I actually had it in mind to write a post noting everything I learned about the spec (maybe as it's own guide?) but by then I thought WoD's release was imminent so there wasn't much point.
    Last edited by Shahad; 2014-09-05 at 01:02 AM.
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  15. #15
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    People just like theorycrafting and gear optimizations because it's easy. It's an easy way to increase your DPS. However, learning how to play the actual game will increase your DPS much more but no one seems to like to do that. It's unfortunate.
    I've been thinking my WoD guide should include more videos - as example of techniques - so people can see it rather than just read about it or skim over it. Is there anything else you had in mind that would better illustrate how to play Shadow?

    An idea I have, but don't have the time to implement, would be for someone to film each progression fight of the tier, and do Shadow PoV guides to each fight, with a Shadow-specific voice-over that shows where to position and how to move, and etc - similar to Tankspot or Fatboss, but solely for Shadow. I can't do it though, so if someone is willing to step up and take a swing at it - they're more than encouraged!


    Quote Originally Posted by Shahad View Post
    And I am curious about which DK you are referring to? The only one I remember involved in DK math was Euliat and Tyvi from early MoP, with Mendenbarr and Reniat taking over later.
    Eleric Was around a week after MoP launch when he posted the blood math spreadsheet, and then another week or two before the unholy snapshotting work.


    #acherus channel is a lot more open than forums and creates the opportunity for a lot more people to get involved in the theorycrafting and cooperate. It also insures everyone is on the same page at all time.
    We used to use the Shadowpriest High Council IRC channel back in TBC, and it was pretty fun hanging out in there and sharing our latest dirty Spriesting secrets - but it doesn't really mean we're all on the same page, forums are much better for posting proper arguments and responses: I think it was a natural evolution. Plus, with Real ID we all have each other on battle net as well - and email


    @OP I agree. When I picked up Shadow in January I was very lost and none of the guides anywhere really helped me. I only got to play Shadow half-decently by watching a LOT of videos, looking at logs, digging through theorycrafting and asking for help in a few places.
    It's sometimes hard to get a grasp on what people are missing or find confusing about guides when you author them - did you look at Woaden, or Twintop, or my guide (or was it something else entirely)? If so - what sort of things did you find elsewhere (logs, videos, theorycraft) that you think we didn't mention or clarify?

    We're always looking for constructive feedback
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2014-09-05 at 07:36 AM.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    I've been thinking my WoD guide should include more videos - as example of techniques - so people can see it rather than just read about it or skim over it. Is there anything else you had in mind that would better illustrate how to play Shadow?

    An idea I have, but don't have the time to implement, would be for someone to film each progression fight of the tier, and do Shadow PoV guides to each fight, with a Shadow-specific voice-over that shows where to position and how to move, and etc - similar to Tankspot or Fatboss, but solely for Shadow. I can't do it though, so if someone is willing to step up and take a swing at it - they're more than encouraged!
    I would do this if it weren't for my icky french accent that makes things difficult to understand for others. Let's have Drye do it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Eleric Was around a week after MoP launch when he posted the blood math spreadsheet, and then another week or two before the unholy snapshotting work.
    No one in #acherus has heard of Eleric or his work, and we worked out unholy snapshotting (and the playstyle that evolved from it, Festerblight) in channel. Tyvi did the mastery vs stam work on his own. It's possible he worked independently from us and got similar results, but we didn't need it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    We used to use the Shadowpriest High Council IRC channel back in TBC, and it was pretty fun hanging out in there and sharing our latest dirty Spriesting secrets - but it doesn't really mean we're all on the same page, forums are much better for posting proper arguments and responses: I think it was a natural evolution. Plus, with Real ID we all have each other on battle net as well - and email
    On the same page as in everyone has the same information to work it, fresh out of SimC/Wolfram. Of course people disagree on certain aspects, but generally we're all in agreement, particularly for Unholy/Frost. Blood is where most of the discussion happens because of the nature of tanks and the difficulty of modelising them. More thought-out arguments on forums might be better for direct 1 on 1 discussions involving opposing viewpoints, but those rarely happen. Generally, having 60+ people participating in discussions from all spheres of raiding and pvp is a boon. But different class communities are different, and we don't work the same. IRC has been a tremendous success for us, might not work for others. I'm just explaining why we appear to have a bigger theorycrafting/testing effort.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    It's sometimes hard to get a grasp on what people are missing or find confusing about guides when you author them - did you look at Woaden, or Twintop, or my guide (or was it something else entirely)? If so - what sort of things did you find elsewhere (logs, videos, theorycraft) that you think we didn't mention or clarify?

    We're always looking for constructive feedback
    I looked at every guide I could find on the internet. Overall, it just felt like the information was fragmented across all the guides, or straight up absent. Using DP on less than 3 orbs, when to Halo, the pull, movement maximising (it's easy to forget a new dpser doesn't innately know this), if it's worth refreshing dots before DP, Mind Sear on 2 targets vs Mind Flay. Mostly the more advanced things, which is what I needed, where much harder to find. I found it eventually, but an "Advanced" version of the Shadow guide would have helped so much back then, just as a compilation of everything in one place.

    Even just a "trinkets procs affect Shadow DPS greatly, making them subject to a lot of randomness in their damage dealing. So when comparing with another Shadow priest, look at their procs first" would have saved me a lot of grief :/
    Last edited by Shahad; 2014-09-05 at 01:30 PM.
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  17. #17
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Comfort View Post
    o/ Ariadne!
    Comfort! Still playing I see. Nice avatar by the way^^.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    I've been thinking my WoD guide should include more videos - as example of techniques - so people can see it rather than just read about it or skim over it. Is there anything else you had in mind that would better illustrate how to play Shadow?

    An idea I have, but don't have the time to implement, would be for someone to film each progression fight of the tier, and do Shadow PoV guides to each fight, with a Shadow-specific voice-over that shows where to position and how to move, and etc - similar to Tankspot or Fatboss, but solely for Shadow. I can't do it though, so if someone is willing to step up and take a swing at it - they're more than encouraged!
    I think it's a waste of time. People don't care. They rather sit and theorycraft. People enjoy optimizing their gear and stuff because they think it makes a significant difference.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    I think it's a waste of time. People don't care. They rather sit and theorycraft. People enjoy optimizing their gear and stuff because they think it makes a significant difference.
    Umm... that's certainly true of some people, but there are certainly other people who would find videos showing how to do things really useful and for some a video would be an even better way of learning than just reading a ton of words.

    I generally find most people are really open to the feedback that regeming/reforging is only going to have a small affect on their DPS if they aren't smashing the buttons correctly. It's one of the reasons log analysis is generally really useful. It allows us to specifically point out shortcoming so those things can be fixed. Most people seem to focus on regeming/reforging because 1) it's generally a pretty straight forward fix and something they can change immediately and 2) some people aren't aware of what they aren't doing correctly mechanic-wise. Not to mention, fixing how a person smashes the buttons usually involves relearning/redoing muscle memory and that takes time.

    I'm not saying you have to do the videos or that you are even the right person to do them. I'm just pointing out it wouldn't be a waste of time. People who aren't interested in changing how they play aren't the target for these things anyway.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Umm... that's certainly true of some people, but there are certainly other people who would find videos showing how to do things really useful and for some a video would be an even better way of learning than just reading a ton of words.

    I generally find most people are really open to the feedback that regeming/reforging is only going to have a small affect on their DPS if they aren't smashing the buttons correctly. It's one of the reasons log analysis is generally really useful. It allows us to specifically point out shortcoming so those things can be fixed. Most people seem to focus on regeming/reforging because 1) it's generally a pretty straight forward fix and something they can change immediately and 2) some people aren't aware of what they aren't doing correctly mechanic-wise. Not to mention, fixing how a person smashes the buttons usually involves relearning/redoing muscle memory and that takes time.

    I'm not saying you have to do the videos or that you are even the right person to do them. I'm just pointing out it wouldn't be a waste of time. People who aren't interested in changing how they play aren't the target for these things anyway.
    It's very few people you reach out to though. It's quite obvious from looking at what people talk about and responses to things that involve playing the game. If people find those things useful why were there never people discussing about how to play?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    It's very few people you reach out to though. It's quite obvious from looking at what people talk about and responses to things that involve playing the game. If people find those things useful why were there never people discussing about how to play?
    I feel like you just asked why grass is pink... but anyway.

    The majority of the Fix My DPS Thread is people looking for and getting feedback on how to play better.
    The last two pages of the Shadow DPS thread have a lot of discussion about best way to play in various situations. If you put even a smidgen of effort into it you'd find a bunch of other discussions in that thread about how to play.
    Oh hey look an entire thread focused on an aspect of how to play

    Gee I wonder if any discussions have happened over on How To Priest?
    Oh hey look it's an entire forum for people to talk about best ways to do each fight.
    Use of Mind Flay and Mind Sear Thread
    Woaden's Guide has how to play discussion and there are a few discussions which take place throughout the thread. Yea people ask about gemming and reforging, but that doesn't mean the how to play discussion never happens.
    Difference between good and great SPriests is a thread full of tons of "Play Better" advice.

    Anywho, there's more if you look for it. The point is these discussions absolutely do happen. Now they might not happen often enough, that's a point of opinion. But they do happen.

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