Lone Wolf Talent

[DeicideUH]

What exactly is the problem with a talent row giving 2 options that buff AoE slightly, and 1 that doesn't? There's multiple talents like that on live for various classes/specs. If a fight requires AoE, pick one of the others?

I'd like to see examples, but I assume that such talent rows revolve around specialized attacks, not gameplay choices. I find it cool for a specialized attack row to give us different attacks that each has its own strength and thus you can choose which attack to use based on fight. But gameplay choices are a little more tricky.

I could agree with you if the other choices in the row gave, for instance, a gameplay choice that increases AoE but isn't good for single target, one that increases single target but does not improves AoE, and another that improves both but it's not the best in either. But that's not what we are seeing. We are seeing two choices aimed at both single target and AoE, and another choice aimed only on single target, and they are balancing them so their damage boost is more or less the same. That creates an obvious "worst" choice in the row. To make matters even worse, BM's version of that talent not only increases single target and AoE, but also utility.

What's the problem with giving LW the two small buffs that I am asking? Would they make it imbalanced? If the answer is "no", then why not?

[PickleballAce]

What exactly is the problem with a talent row giving 2 options that buff AoE slightly, and 1 that doesn't? There's multiple talents like that on live for various classes/specs. If a fight requires AoE, pick one of the others?

We have this problem with Demonology's level 100 tier talents. The first talent (Demonbolt) has no AoE application while the other two (Cataclysm AoE spell or permanent Infernal) have AoE applications in addition to their single target usage.

The problem is that this heavily encourages you to re-spec depending on the encounter. In essence, the encounter design team is picking the talents for you (unless you don't really care about your performance). This goes against their stated philosophy of the new talents giving us "choice" where the old talent system was merely a cookie-cutter system. It's the same problem as before....the only choice is right talent vs. wrong talent.

If Demonbolt had something like a cleave effect you could justify its usage compared to the other two talents because it would be at least somewhat useful beyond single target. If it has zero use for AoE fights then it is pretty inferior to a talent that allows you some AoE bonus.

But, Lone Wolf has the complication of it replacing a largely single-target source, and if the other two talents offer only a modest AoE bonus, that's a bit more palatable.

[Tyderi]

Blizzard has this nasty habit of making dps talents be either mandatory or shitty. Lone Wolf will likely end up being shitty because they don't want to anger the people who like pets. If LW ended up being the highest dps talent many people would shit a brick. What would be nice is if Lone Wolf just turned off your pet's attack functions and they essentially became aesthetic utility guardians. IMO it would solve some of the issues people have with it. No bullshit pet AI to mess with (it just follows you around and maybe walks menacing defensive positions around you) and if it turned out to be the best talent they'd still have a pet to look at.

[Deleted]

No, it doesn't. You are not aware of the latest changes, it seems.

I already fixed that before you were done typing all this.

They removed the 30% to all damage because it was too good,

And now LW is the orphan of the tier, fat chance.

[eschatological]

Except Lone Wolf is still the top talent for single target in the row for both SV and MM. Still waiting tuning, maybe, but you shouldn't just say random shit like it's "the orphan of the tier."

[NoamIRL]

I may not contribute much to this topic, but heres my tought: this talent is fucking awesome.
been playing wow for 7 years, never really tried a hunter. two reasons, felt akward, had pet.
so they gave hunters the Focus mechanic, which in my opinion put so much more depth in the class, that i said to my self i just have to finally try it out, being a hunter\archer style person i am. i decided to obviously go for the MM build, where pet is serving me as a mere excessory that i can ignore most of the time.
and then i heared about this talent.
i jizzed everywhere, really. it was chaotic.
so im just so psyched for WoD that i came for, and continue kicking fucking ass with my 74 hunter. cant wait for WoD, cant wait for Lone Wolf.
i just hope that Lone Wolf will get sorted out and balanced and that they wont give it up, itll be some very hard work to do. i just wanna see this talent live so bad.

[Deleted]

How does LW interact with spirit bond and stampede? I love spirit bond and it feels strange that an entire talent just stops working when you pick another talent... as for stampede i assume it just summons your non-active pets but it would be cool if they did something different with it. When i think of a lone wolf i dont imagine 5 beasts fighting alongside him ;D. But that's pretty irrelevant. What i do really hope is changed is spirit bond.

I dont have a beta key so i'm just going off the tooltips on wowhead.

[DeicideUH]

How does LW interact with spirit bond and stampede? I love spirit bond and it feels strange that an entire talent just stops working when you pick another talent... as for stampede i assume it just summons your non-active pets but it would be cool if they did something different with it. When i think of a lone wolf i dont imagine 5 beasts fighting alongside him ;D. But that's pretty irrelevant. What i do really hope is changed is spirit bond.

I dont have a beta key so i'm just going off the tooltips on wowhead.

Both work exactly like you said. Spirit Bond doesn't work. Stampede does summon 4 pets.

[Tyderi]

Both work exactly like you said. Spirit Bond doesn't work. Stampede does summon 4 pets.

Which is pretty ridiculous. It limits us to iron hawk or Exhil, and Exhil is pretty awful right now.

[DeicideUH]

Which is pretty ridiculous. It limits us to iron hawk or Exhil, and Exhil is pretty awful right now.

Yeah, I agree. LW is the only talent that negates options in three other tiers. I think it's absurd.

I've been at least asking the devs to take a look at Exhilaration. LW or not, Exhilaration needs an improvement; it has been shit since the removal of Readiness. They should give it charges, reduce the CD or enhance the effect (adding a HoT effect after the instant heal, for instance).

[Goondicker]

I just think it's bullshit they are reducing our talent choices when petless, but then warlocks get compensation for the same thing.

They'll keep getting lazier and lazier about things until the class sinks down to the flavorless spot it's in now. I don't understand how hunters aren't furious about this.

[Deleted]

I'd like to see examples, but I assume that such talent rows revolve around specialized attacks, not gameplay choices. I find it cool for a specialized attack row to give us different attacks that each has its own strength and thus you can choose which attack to use based on fight. But gameplay choices are a little more tricky.

Paladin lvl 90, druid lvl 60/90, monk lvl 30, priest lvl 75, shaman lvl 90, warlock lvl 90, warrior lvl 90 are the ones I can spot at first glance. Some of these are also more gameplay choice than "oh look, no pet and you're done". Elemental lvl 90 is a 12 or 15 sec attack that you need to bake into your rotation, warlock better AoE comes at cost of not casting on move, etc.

What's the problem with giving LW the two small buffs that I am asking? Would they make it imbalanced? If the answer is "no", then why not?

That's not the only question. Pretty sure blizzard is looking at talents from a perspective of "This should at least be best choice in situation X". If a single talent does that everywhere, they may as well all be the same or not there. I'm not saying it wouldn't be balanced, but calling something broken because it doesn't do the exact same thing as the other talents isn't correct. You're supposed to have to chose, and every fight will have a better option (or 3 irrelevant options), especially when it comes to talents that boost dps. If lone wolf is not that choice on fights with some AoE, so be it?

[Raicky]

They buffed Steady Shot in the recent builds. And if Lone Wolf stays at 30% then its always going to be the top talent. The only reason there was doubt before was because Steady Shot did absolutely fuckall damage so we had a choice between that and Focusing Shot. With the recent buffs I think Lone Wolf should pull ahead. (No beta access so don't quote me on this)

[DeicideUH]

First off, not all players like to change talents based on fight. I understand the competitive ones, specially heroic/mythic do it often, but most players don't. They may change talents once in a while because of a very particular fight mechanic or to try something different, but they usually stick with their favorite choice.

Paladin lvl 90, druid lvl 60/90, monk lvl 30, priest lvl 75, shaman lvl 90, warlock lvl 90, warrior lvl 90 are the ones I can spot at first glance. Some of these are also more gameplay choice than "oh look, no pet and you're done". Elemental lvl 90 is a 12 or 15 sec attack that you need to bake into your rotation, warlock better AoE comes at cost of not casting on move, etc.

Pally 90? I play a Paladin as well, and level 90 talents are fine. I use Holy Prism, because it's very versatile, and has used the other two on ocasion. But I don't feel forced to switch talents per fight. Paladin 90 talents are a good example of what talents give: one is versatile (adds to rotation, gives big heal on one target and good AoE damage or big damage on one target and good AoE healing), one is a catch-all utility (AoE damage and healing on area once ina while, plus snares for PvP) and the last one is lessversatile but more powerful (big single target damage or heal, no AoE). It's a style choice that a player can choose and not feel required to change often if they don't want to. All of them provide healing and damage. In one you trade versatility for power.

Now Hunter tier 100: One provides AoE, Single target and PvP utility, but not all at the same time. The other reduces your downtime, allowing you to use any attacks (AoE or single target) more often. The third one removes utility and gives single target damage. (And the BM version gives single target, AoE and utility all at once). The problem there is that they are supposed to be balanced damage-wise, if LW gave the largest single target damage it could compensate the losses it imposes (but then people would complain that it is mandatory).

About Warlock level 90 talents... they are a very different thing because they don't overlap. You are choosing between more periods of Burst damage, more mobility or better AoE. They don't overlap and give you different versions of something. Those are indeed talents that you'd need to change often based on fight because they are more than simple gameplay choices because their benefits are very different. Hunter tier 100 is nothing like that because all of them are about increasing damage in different ways.

That's not the only question. Pretty sure blizzard is looking at talents from a perspective of "This should at least be best choice in situation X". If a single talent does that everywhere, they may as well all be the same or not there. I'm not saying it wouldn't be balanced, but calling something broken because it doesn't do the exact same thing as the other talents isn't correct. You're supposed to have to chose, and every fight will have a better option (or 3 irrelevant options), especially when it comes to talents that boost dps. If lone wolf is not that choice on fights with some AoE, so be it?

Neither Special Munitions, Adaptation or Focusing Shot would require me to switch talents because all of them cover single and AoE. But Lone Wolf does. Why only Lone Wolf as the black sheep of the tier? All the other talents stand on their own.

Notice I'm not talking about those Mythic players that will switch talents each fight because some talent will give them 1% or 2% more DPS. I'm talking about more casual players (like me), who like gameplay choices and stick with them and wouldn't want to feel forced to switch a prefered talent because it's suddenly the obvious worse (by a large margin) in some situation.

Giving LW a small boost to AoE wouldn't make it the best in its tier. It just would make it not the clear worse.

[Rizendragon]

Pally 90? I play a Paladin as well, and level 90 talents are fine. I use Holy Prism, because it's very versatile, and has used the other two on ocasion. But I don't feel forced to switch talents per fight. Paladin 90 talents are a good example of what talents give: one is versatile (adds to rotation, gives big heal on one target and good AoE damage or big damage on one target and good AoE healing), one is a catch-all utility (AoE damage and healing on area once ina while, plus snares for PvP) and the last one is lessversatile but more powerful (big single target damage or heal, no AoE). It's a style choice that a player can choose and not feel required to change often if they don't want to. All of them provide healing and damage. In one you trade versatility for power.

Ok I've read through trying to figure out what is "wrong" with lone wolf in its current state (extra damage to single target attacks, no debuffs (that will be covered in a Mythic anyways), a buff UI, benefit of not dealing with a pet) and then you bring this out. For all but one Paladin spec the lvl 90 tier is "choose this option or you're doing it wrong" (at last in PvE) and that spec is Holy. The option comes down to "is it a stack fight or is it a spread fight" question. Ret takes Execution sentence on single target and hammer on heavy AoE fights.

The main thing a Hunter worries about in a raid setting is their DPS. Blizzard is giving you everything you need to do that and bring utility to the raid without a pet with Lone Wolf. The increases you're asking for (a debuff UI and a buff to AoE DPS abilities) would make the talent OP in both PvE and PvP. This talent is supposed to be a choice of "more single target for slightly less utility."

[DeicideUH]

Ok I've read through trying to figure out what is "wrong" with lone wolf in its current state (extra damage to single target attacks, no debuffs (that will be covered in a Mythic anyways), a buff UI, benefit of not dealing with a pet) and then you bring this out. For all but one Paladin spec the lvl 90 tier is "choose this option or you're doing it wrong" (at last in PvE) and that spec is Holy. The option comes down to "is it a stack fight or is it a spread fight" question. Ret takes Execution sentence on single target and hammer on heavy AoE fights.

The main thing a Hunter worries about in a raid setting is their DPS. Blizzard is giving you everything you need to do that and bring utility to the raid without a pet with Lone Wolf. The increases you're asking for (a debuff UI and a buff to AoE DPS abilities) would make the talent OP in both PvE and PvP. This talent is supposed to be a choice of "more single target for slightly less utility."

You are only looking at the side of the competitive playing. Competitive players will always move to the talent that gives them the largest benefit at each fight. For them, what matters is: which talent is the best for the current situation?

I'm looking at the side of non-competitive players as well. I'll tell you why I use Holy Prism with my paladin. First, because there are moments in a Pally's rotation that you end up with everything in CD, and having Holy Prism available as a button to press is nice. Second, as a tank, I use it on myself as a backup heal, which in turn hits 5 nearby enemies, doubling as a pulling/aggro mechanic. As a tank, doing damage is not my primary concern. It gives me some nice damage and survivability and I can use it frequently, and it's good because of that.

As a DPS paladin, I often use Holy Prism in a enemy. Like with tanking, it's available often and I use it to fill empty GCDs. It does nice damage, and as a plus side heals 5 allies (including myself), which in turn gives a little help to the healers. I also do PvP a lot, and Holy Prism has the advantage of giving me yet another ranged attack and a much-needed self-heal. Winning in PvP is often a matter of survivability.

So, Holy Prism does less damage to my target than Execution Sequence would? It's no big deal. I'm not a Mythic raider, I contribute with the team with more than damage: I often use my Hands to keep people alive, I also have more than once saved someone with Eternal Flame or even Flash of Light. It helps the team, which is not a Mythic-level team and has troubles with survivability sometimes. Those talents are a style choice as long as you are not trying to beat top-level content. I don't care if at top-level content everyone will take Execution Sequence. I understand why they are forced to do so, as I understand that this is a thing for every talent tier at that level of play: there'll always be a "best one" in each tier for a particular fight.

Again, I'm not asking Lone Wolf to be overpowered, and I don't care if it's not the best in its tier. I do care, however, that it's competitive with the others (competitive does not mean equal to in throught put, but close enough so it's a real choice). I'd like to see a small boost to AoE, because every other talent in that tier provides it. If they give it some AoE, even if it's worse than munitions or Focusing Shot (and it should be, because munitions is a stance-like benefit, and Focusing Shot requires skill, so LW shouldn't be as good), I'd be happy with it.

So, boost Multi-shot by 10% while under LW. What's the big deal with that? If it won't break the talent, why not do so?

[Raldazzar]

How does LW interact with spirit bond and stampede? I love spirit bond and it feels strange that an entire talent just stops working when you pick another talent... as for stampede i assume it just summons your non-active pets but it would be cool if they did something different with it. When i think of a lone wolf i dont imagine 5 beasts fighting alongside him ;D. But that's pretty irrelevant. What i do really hope is changed is spirit bond.

I dont have a beta key so i'm just going off the tooltips on wowhead.

Just to answer that, Spirit bond simply doesn't work if you take lone wolf, since the requirement is.. pet out. as for stampede, it just summons your pets as normal. it works just fine with it

[Deleted]

First off, not all players like to change talents based on fight. I understand the competitive ones, specially heroic/mythic do it often, but most players don't. They may change talents once in a while because of a very particular fight mechanic or to try something different, but they usually stick with their favorite choice.

Neither Special Munitions, Adaptation or Focusing Shot would require me to switch talents because all of them cover single and AoE. But Lone Wolf does. Why only Lone Wolf as the black sheep of the tier? All the other talents stand on their own.

Notice I'm not talking about those Mythic players that will switch talents each fight because some talent will give them 1% or 2% more DPS. I'm talking about more casual players (like me), who like gameplay choices and stick with them and wouldn't want to feel forced to switch a prefered talent because it's suddenly the obvious worse (by a large margin) in some situation.

Giving LW a small boost to AoE wouldn't make it the best in its tier. It just would make it not the clear worse.

Are you implying that raids will have enough steady AoE that focusing shot's will be THE groundbreaking focus return for a hunter to do 10%+ extra damage if you wouldn't pick lone wolf? You make it sound like picking lone wolf removes multishot or something. Not to mention, multishot isn't exactly the bulk of AoE-damage for survival/BM. You'll still be able to play with lone wolf. And if some adds come you'll do slightly less dps than hunter who picks the best talent for the fight.
If you're gonna be persistent and claim to want to AoE as marksman properly with whatever talents you chose, then so be it. Crack your head at every single talent in-game then because there are quite substantial differences already, especially when it comes to AoE. I'd be surprised if focusing shot vs lone wolf would even be the biggest "offender" (read: imbalanced) in a sustained 5 target situation. What exactly do you think is the difference btw, if I may ask? I'm curious myself.

Edit: even in SoO, add-infested raid, the amount of actual sustained AoE situations are extremely limited. Only ones I can think of are galakras and blobs on dark shamans (where you may even want to pick lone wolf because walls can easily kill your pet). Other fights there may be some AoE, but it's either way too short to be of much relevance (Thok bats) or it's cleave and not actual AoE.

[Deleted]

Personally I can't see what the big deal about Focusing Shot is. I rather like that talent. Cobra shot does a puny 60% weapon damage and generates 7 focus per second, while Focusing Shot does 120% weapon damage and 16.7 focus per second. I raided as a Mage for the entirety of MoP so I know what 'planning your movement' means, considering the requirements that Rune of Power or even Invocation and hard casting spells puts on the player.

Focusing Shot generates so much more focus than Cobra/Steady that you can stop for a cast and then run for a few globals again, before stopping to cast one again. If the talent proves to be strong DPS, I'll probably use it on every fight where you're not required to move practically all the time, and I doubt fights like that even exist considering the reduced mobility of caster DPS. In fact, I'd expect Focusing Shot to be the strongest level 100 DPS talent because it actually requires you to adapt your playstyle while the other 2 are passive more newbie friendly damage increases.

[DeicideUH]

Are you implying that raids will have enough steady AoE that focusing shot's will be THE groundbreaking focus return for a hunter to do 10%+ extra damage if you wouldn't pick lone wolf? You make it sound like picking lone wolf removes multishot or something. Not to mention, multishot isn't exactly the bulk of AoE-damage for survival/BM. You'll still be able to play with lone wolf. And if some adds come you'll do slightly less dps than hunter who picks the best talent for the fight.
If you're gonna be persistent and claim to want to AoE as marksman properly with whatever talents you chose, then so be it. Crack your head at every single talent in-game then because there are quite substantial differences already, especially when it comes to AoE. I'd be surprised if focusing shot vs lone wolf would even be the biggest "offender" (read: imbalanced) in a sustained 5 target situation. What exactly do you think is the difference btw, if I may ask? I'm curious myself.

Edit: even in SoO, add-infested raid, the amount of actual sustained AoE situations are extremely limited. Only ones I can think of are galakras and blobs on dark shamans (where you may even want to pick lone wolf because walls can easily kill your pet). Other fights there may be some AoE, but it's either way too short to be of much relevance (Thok bats) or it's cleave and not actual AoE.

My logic is quite simple. If munitions increase my AoE damage by X%, and Focusing Shot increases it by Y%, then Lone Wolf increases it by zero. You have no gain whatsoever. I don't care if LW would still be slightly behind the others, but I do care about that "zero" value.

If base hunter AoE is X without talents, and other talents do X + Y, I wouldn't mind if LW would only give me X + (Y * 0.6). It's still better than just X.

And like you said yourself: Multi-shot is only a small part of AoE damage for Surv and BM, but MM would benefit a lot from it, and MM is already far far behind the other specs in AoE damage (and guess which spec I play?).

And BTW, you limit your thinking to raids only. I'm not a great raider (I'm above the average player, but far behind serious raiders), but I do a lot of things in this game, including PvP. I don't care if there's 1 fight or 10 fights in which AoE will be important, I care for the fact that AoE is not buffed at all.

When I make a request, I'm not constraining it behind one aspect of the game, but how it will impact the game overall. When I'm out in the wild without a pet and pull several mobs, I'd like to be able to kill them a little quickier since I don't have a pet to tank them.