Warlock WoD Beta test - General chat

[Netherspark]

Still no Grimoire: Infernal or Grimoire: Doomguard. Regular summons are still not on the flip out menu either.

I think we need more people to badger celestalon... like daily. Nobody else has NYI talents this close to release.

[Deleted]

Removal of snapshotting applies to every single class, in general with a few exceptions.

As a part of the global ability pruning, Fel Flame in contrast to the utility spells is central part of the tool-kit.
(Although I may have wrongly mentioned curses, they were a part of the class 'definition')

KJC nerf is in general tied to 'less capability' while casting and was actually to be expected.

Splitting hairs imo. These changes profoundly alter how the spec is played to the extent of making it completely different from MoP's iteration.

[Baconeggcheese]

Removal of snapshotting applies to every single class, in general with a few exceptions..

The difference being it's more a positive thing for other classes with the way they worked and the lack of pandemic. Huge QoL boost for them.

Massive and mostly warranted nerf for aff though.

[Novx]

Removal of snapshotting applies to every single class, in general with a few exceptions.

As a part of the global ability pruning, Fel Flame in contrast to the utility spells is central part of the tool-kit.
(Although I may have wrongly mentioned curses, they were a part of the class 'definition')

KJC nerf is in general tied to 'less capability' while casting and was actually to be expected.

There is a difference:

Moonkin: Starsurge/Starfire/Wrath + Dots
Shadow Priest: Mindblast, Mind Spike, Mind Flay + Dots
Aff lock: Malefic Grasp (which triggers dots) + Dots

Other classes aren't as heavily impacted as affliction warlocks are. Yes, it is going to change things for them but when it comes to aff locks everything we do, and have historically done, is DoT management...that is gone.

Let me clarify: Over time I may be fine with the removal of snapshotting but it just feels to me like they butched a spec, not off its damage, but its playstyle. It just seems dull to me now as there really isn't any huge min/maxing anymore.

[pvw1075]

I haven't played aff in a while and last night I did.
I forgot how much I love the spec, removing snapshotting is a QoL fix for most players, I'm going to miss that massive burst on pulls.

[fguru482]

There is a difference:

Moonkin: Starsurge/Starfire/Wrath + Dots
Shadow Priest: Mindblast, Mind Spike, Mind Flay + Dots
Aff lock: Malefic Grasp (which triggers dots) + Dots

Other classes aren't as heavily impacted as affliction warlocks are. Yes, it is going to change things for them but when it comes to aff locks everything we do, and have historically done, is DoT management...that is gone.

Let me clarify: Over time I may be fine with the removal of snapshotting but it just feels to me like they butched a spec, not off its damage, but its playstyle. It just seems dull to me now as there really isn't any huge min/maxing anymore.

So just in theory we could effectively use a cast sequence macro for the entire fight and do the same dps? Would that work with all three specs or just affliction?

I guess demo will be the only really compelling playstyle. Destro will be a turret for aoe fights?


Those are the vibes im getting.

[Deleted]

For single target Affliction, I guess in theory you could. But honestly it's not worth it.

Keep Agony up.
Keep Corruption up.
Keep Unstable Affliction up, this one is even easier because with the changes to pandemic and Haunt, you will want to refresh UA after every Haunt (whilst it is still in the air) because of how the timers are so close to each other.
Then just spam Drain Soul.

It's so fucking shit.

[Deleted]

For single target Affliction, I guess in theory you could. But honestly it's not worth it.

Keep Agony up.
Keep Corruption up.
Keep Unstable Affliction up, this one is even easier because with the changes to pandemic and Haunt, you will want to refresh UA after every Haunt (whilst it is still in the air) because of how the timers are so close to each other.
Then just spam Drain Soul.

It's so fucking shit.

I really hope they will make some modification to add to the depth of the Affliction spec as it feels terribly shallow atm on the beta. With the entirety of the spec summed up with the priority list you mentioned, the skill cap is lowered significantly as it's going to be more difficult to distinguish between a good player and a great player.

[Jessicka]

For single target Affliction, I guess in theory you could. But honestly it's not worth it.

Keep Agony up.
Keep Corruption up.
Keep Unstable Affliction up, this one is even easier because with the changes to pandemic and Haunt, you will want to refresh UA after every Haunt (whilst it is still in the air) because of how the timers are so close to each other.
Then just spam Drain Soul.

It's so fucking shit.

So much this. The spec needs a full 50% Pandemic just so this doesn't happen so you can actually game the timers better, as it stands it is so incredibly rigid.

[Nighthaven-]

@ 'Horde' / All

Not disagreeing,
but my point was mainly about how few actual warlock changes there were.

Virtually nothing, only removal of certain abilities, while additional abilities by T-100 is just something you expect from a new row of talents.

All the broken mechanics of of all three specs, to either a greater or lesser extent are still there, in addition to the 'new' dullness of them.

While snapshotting affects us negatively to a greater extent than positively for other classes, it is fundamentally a 'global' change. It isn't specifically targeting Affliction despite it suffering from it the most.

- If it wasn't for the number tuning, Warlocks have only ever had a ~single 'change patch' - which is, entirely stripping of the toolkit.

[ChocoboMog123]

There is a difference:

Moonkin: Starsurge/Starfire/Wrath + Dots
Shadow Priest: Mindblast, Mind Spike, Mind Flay + Dots
Aff lock: Malefic Grasp (which triggers dots) + Dots

Other classes aren't as heavily impacted as affliction warlocks are. Yes, it is going to change things for them but when it comes to aff locks everything we do, and have historically done, is DoT management...that is gone.

Let me clarify: Over time I may be fine with the removal of snapshotting but it just feels to me like they butched a spec, not off its damage, but its playstyle. It just seems dull to me now as there really isn't any huge min/maxing anymore.

Contrast that with Feral, which gets to keep (at least part of) its snapshotting because... I guess that's part of the class?
Rogue theoretically has interesting gameplay with Rupture snapshotting, too, but I think they generally have too much on their plate to worry about it. Kinda how Aff was in Wrath, it was a bonus you'd aim for when within reach, but forcing it was a loss overall.

The whole affair just leaves a bitter taste...

[Bullettime]

Rupture snapshotting has been basically removed. The dot will drop off too quickly to be worth snapshotting it over other maintenance such as Tempest.

But yeah, Affliction is incredibly boring. It feels like a Wrath era Shadow Priest.

[JV Chequer]

Any theorycrafting about our Horde BIS Races for Warlock?
Can I presume that best is Orc > Belf > Troll > Goblin > Undead for Demo/Destro and Orc > Troll > Goblin > Belf > Undead for Affliction ?

[Werst]

Snapshotting is one of those things that we cry about now and romanticize but prior to this expansion it has never presented a balance issue. Sure it was a good vs better skillcap (prior to T15/T16) but it wasn't a huge lifechanging gain. When you compare even from cata or T14 its not the kind of difference you see now in SoO. You easily can see what 300% to 500% from affdots between baseline and everything lines up perfectly moment? I kind of agree with the devs it wasn't as much skill as addon dependency combined with over the top trinkets/metagem/racials/etc...

When you combine the lack of mobility (a separate issue/discussion) I think the skillcap isn't going to be refreshing when your bboy weakaura reads 10, soulswapping between haunts/MG's, and praying to the RPPMGods as much as keeping uptime of things during high mobility fights the devs are fond of. I don't want boring raids, nor the Rube Goldberg cata demo setup...focusing on situational awareness to max uptime on a simpler rotation simply promotes a more well rounded type of skill.

As for races I think JV is pretty much on the mark depending on how they tune the undead proc. Had some IRL things take me away from the game but I'm simply not enthused about the state of warlocks going into WoD. Almost to the point I'm not sure I want to come back. If I do it will NOT be HC this time just with friends and no more killing myself to do everything, grind every rep, push push push, etc.

[Zharradan]

undead proc is undertuned and will stay that way for what i'm seeing. inb4 rerolling to belf, since the new orc model doesn't do it for me (maybe female?) but i will wait till i see the new model in motion

[Vodkatwist]

Dunno if this has already been asked, but will we need to always respec Affli for cleave fights?
Don't get me wrong, I like the spec, but I love the "one spec fits it all" thinking :V

[Deleted]

Snapshotting is one of those things that we cry about now and romanticize but prior to this expansion it has never presented a balance issue. Sure it was a good vs better skillcap (prior to T15/T16) but it wasn't a huge lifechanging gain. When you compare even from cata or T14 its not the kind of difference you see now in SoO. You easily can see what 300% to 500% from affdots between baseline and everything lines up perfectly moment? I kind of agree with the devs it wasn't as much skill as addon dependency combined with over the top trinkets/metagem/racials/etc...

The reason why affliction has balance issues now is NOT snapshotting however. As you pointed out, it wasn't as extreme during T14 oder T15. It only became a problem when blizzard suddenly decided to change Soul Swap at the beginning of T16, taking a little bug that was abused in late T15 and making an improved version of it baseline functionality. Out of nowhere they decided to allow Soul Swap to be used to nearly endlessly extend the duration of your supercharged dots on as many targets as you want as long as you have more than one target available. That and nothing else is the problem that we are seeing right now.
Of course, even without multiple targets affliction is strong right now. But super strong? No. Especially if you take aside 3 minute speedkill bosses due to ilvl 589 raids on rabies. It's Protectors, Shamans and Klaxxi where Affliction produces ridiculous numbers and that's for a reason and that reason is called soul swap and blizzard decided to implement it that way for T16 and god knows why they did that instead of fix the bug/exploit and leave it as it was.

edit: Prior to that stupid soul swap change on 5.4 dot snapshotting was nothing but a cool mechanic that added some depth to the gameplay. And yes, it even added depth while using Affdots, cause it doesn't matter if there's a fancy procc-texture that you react to by adapting your rotation or a number in a little window changing its colour.

[ChocoboMog123]

^ Why was Soul Swap changed? I might be reaching here, but I think the loss of a certain Warlock dev might have something to do with our recent balance issues...

But, I think Blizzard agrees that SS is too stupid right now. That's why they're giving it a 1 shard minimum cost >_> Why we can't go back to the 10 second/30 second CD? I don't know.
On top of that, trinkets right now are just plain ridiculous. When a trinket proc DOUBLES your SP (on top of giving significant amounts of Crit), those that don't utilize it are going to be left in the dust. Extreme trinket procs are fun, but one in every tier that requires a certain playstyle increases the delta between a good player and a bad one much too far. This is why snapshotting is broken. Min/maxing your damage based on trinket procs is fine, having garbage damage without doing so is not.

[Baconeggcheese]

^ Why was Soul Swap changed? .

Because they want us hard casting dots, and why it wasn't changed back to its CD form I couldn't tell you with certainty. I imagine they wanted it to be more critical of a choice to use the ability than *use this on cooldown every 30 seconds in applicable situations*.

[Deleted]

I think the question was why soul swap was changed in 5.4 in the first place. For no apparent reason they made it extremely powerful. The stuff that's going on at protectors etc. wouldn't be possible without that change in 5.4