How to get overpowered again

[Pandacally]

Hey, I'm going to quote blizz about upcoming balancing:

Re: class balance - yes, we're planning to make adjustments. Currently gathering data to help us make the right changes. Don't want to under/overdo changes and have to buff/nerf again after.
....
Definitely not. We're looking forward to getting raid data.
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Will the changes be prior or after initial progression though?
Depends on what you're considering "initial progression." Likely to be after Normal raids open. Need that raid data...
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A class can have amazing patchwerk DPS and completely suck on raid encounters with actual mechanics.

So what they are saying is that they balance on real performance and dps output we do in the first week/2 weeks of raiding.

I was wondering if we should all try to underperform dps wise (meaning only playing shitty and/or play fire) instead of going frost and all out in dps;
So that they have to see how badly fire really performs instead of just seeing frost doing ok (and maybe even nerfing it down a bit). I am also afraid they might think one decent dps specc is fine for the whole class, so as long as we are playing frost we will get nerfs rather than buffs.

What do you think? If we can reach a big enough mage raider base, we might make a change!

tl:dr: Play fire/arcane semi-decently in the first raids so that they see the issues and fix it, and not frost so that they can ignore issues.

[Polarthief]

Based on your title alone, I'm going to laugh at you and this idea.

Approaching this without your laughable title: No, it won't work.

[Alcsaar]

ITT: Delicious tears of a mage whining - for no real reason. At least you have a viable dps spec. Mages are probably the class that has been one of the strongest performing classes both in raids and pvp for every single expansion.

[Polarthief]

At least you have a viable dps spec.

When you have three of them, typically, at least one will be viable. However, the rest of your post is a bit unwarranted, despite the OP wanting to be "Overpowered again".

[Deleted]

dont worry they will buff mages. fire will be overbuffed and nerfed again later on.

[Polarthief]

dont worry they will buff mages. fire will be overbuffed and nerfed again later on.

Basically what I'm thinking. They're going to give Arcane and Frost some love, and they're going to overbuff Fire, then knee-jerk nerf it back to the ground to an even worse point then it's at right now.

[Imnick]

To get Overpowered you need to be level 100 and in the Arcane specialisation. If you already picked Arcane Orb or Prismatic Crystal, you can use a Tome of the Clear Mind to change your choice.

[Polarthief]

To get Overpowered you need to be level 100 and in the Arcane specialisation. If you already picked Arcane Orb or Prismatic Crystal, you can use a Tome of the Clear Mind to change your choice.

Nick, there are some days where I just want to buy you a beer for being one of the most clever bastards ever.

[willemh]

ITT: Delicious tears of a mage whining - for no real reason. At least you have a viable dps spec. Mages are probably the class that has been one of the strongest performing classes both in raids and pvp for every single expansion.

Just a nice anecdote, I clearly recall how bad mages were compared to warlocks and hunters when I started playing this game a very long time ago (TBC). I remember checking log rankings for Brutallus (perfect dps check) and seeing only hunters, rogues and warlocks. A group of warlocks buffing eachothers shadowdamage with improved shadowbolt was the way to go, with a shadowpriest in there to buff some extra shadow damage if I recall correct. There was no room for mages in these groups.

Anyway I can't believe how we have a beta of 6 months, have a decent balanced lvl 100 situation when the patch goes live (if I'm correct all 3 mage specs were within a few percentages of eachother at one point shortly before 6.0 release on live servers), then get HUGE adjustments for lvl 90 balance, and now we will go into the first raiding week completely imbalanced.

Also I really do not like blizzard using the first raiding week as beta test. They did more then enough beta testing to not need this additional data. Its feels very sloppy from their side. I as guildleader was supposed to use the first raiding week to judge my new trials in normal/heroic and figure the best setup going into mythic. How am I supposed to do that when we're gonna see HUGE adjustments after the initial week of raiding? 'Oh this hunter does sick damage, lets pass his trial!' > after one week > 'Hunter damage nerfed by 20%'. 'Lets kick this fire mage, he had decent gear but does terrible damage' > after one week > 'Fire mage damage buffed by 30%'.

You expect classes to be properly balanced by this point. Sure, some 5% changes can be made, but with current balanced way more will be needed and will result in huge shifts.

[Polarthief]

I as guildleader was supposed to use the first raiding week to judge my new trials in normal/heroic and figure the best setup going into mythic. How am I supposed to do that when we're gonna see HUGE adjustments after the initial week of raiding? 'Oh this hunter does sick damage, lets pass his trial!' > after one week > 'Hunter damage nerfed by 20%'. 'Lets kick this fire mage, he had decent gear but does terrible damage' > after one week > 'Fire mage damage buffed by 30%'.

Don't judge based on numbers and instead judge based on their deaths and damage taken.

"We see your DPS is great, but you died 87 times to clearly labeled danger zones..." Hell, I even trialed a few players during Siege, but just based on how many times they died to Annihilate on Garrosh or touched the Iron Star, or stayed in the Desecrated Weapon, not numbers in a confusing mess of pre-expansion chaos.

As a team leader of a brand new team where literally 80%+ of my team is composed of people I don't even know or know how well they raid, I'll be using this as judgement, and reserving any number-based judging until AFTER we get some gear and changes. Keep in mind that a lot of specs (*COUGHFireCOUGH*) will perform better the higher your stats inflate.

[justjm]

Just a nice anecdote, I clearly recall how bad mages were compared to warlocks and hunters when I started playing this game a very long time ago (TBC). I remember checking log rankings for Brutallus (perfect dps check) and seeing only hunters, rogues and warlocks. A group of warlocks buffing eachothers shadowdamage with improved shadowbolt was the way to go, with a shadowpriest in there to buff some extra shadow damage if I recall correct. There was no room for mages in these groups.

Did you really bring up Sunwell again? Forgotten how borked mages were during Naxx? Rolling ignites anyone?. Furthermore mages were not 'unwanted' by everyone. We ran a perfectly good setup with fire destro/curse of elements/imp sacc locks ad still cleared content. Why? Our guild was primarily composed of sensible people, not whiners. Also since we have selective memory, let's compare warlocks through Cataclysm? So many moving parts, that blizzard was forced to rebuild the blasted class. While fire mages were destroying meters, along with shadowmourne fury warriors.

Let's face it. Mages and locks have both had ups and downs. So drop the sunwell act.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUNhHjWPlN8 - for memory.

[Deleted]

Also I really do not like blizzard using the first raiding week as beta test. They did more then enough beta testing to not need this additional data. Its feels very sloppy from their side. I as guildleader was supposed to use the first raiding week to judge my new trials in normal/heroic and figure the best setup going into mythic. How am I supposed to do that when we're gonna see HUGE adjustments after the initial week of raiding? 'Oh this hunter does sick damage, lets pass his trial!' > after one week > 'Hunter damage nerfed by 20%'. 'Lets kick this fire mage, he had decent gear but does terrible damage' > after one week > 'Fire mage damage buffed by 30%'.

You expect classes to be properly balanced by this point. Sure, some 5% changes can be made, but with current balanced way more will be needed and will result in huge shifts.

exactly. whoever is doing the balancing sucks at his job. its just bad.

[Deleted]

I as guildleader was supposed to use the first raiding week to judge my new trials in normal/heroic and figure the best setup going into mythic. How am I supposed to do that when we're gonna see HUGE adjustments after the initial week of raiding? 'Oh this hunter does sick damage, lets pass his trial!' > after one week > 'Hunter damage nerfed by 20%'. 'Lets kick this fire mage, he had decent gear but does terrible damage' > after one week > 'Fire mage damage buffed by 30%'.

Possibly we'll see the first batch of adjustments before Highmaul opens.
@CM_Lore: "[...]Also, I spoke too soon earlier re: timelines. First round of changes going in pretty soon."

[Polarthief]

Did you really bring up Sunwell again? Forgotten how borked mages were during Naxx? Rolling ignites anyone?

I'd just like to point out that using Naxx as an example is very laughable when not even 1% of the playerbase (maybe even 1% of the RAIDERS) saw Naxx 60, let alone cleared the place. If you'd also like to say "But you could use it in other raids!", keep in mind that MC, BWL, and IIRC, Onyxia were all immune to fire-based spells.

Also, he's bringing up one example; he's not saying "Mages have always been bad". Cool your jets.

- - - Updated - - -

Possibly we'll see the first batch of adjustments before Highmaul opens.
@CM_Lore: "[...]Also, I spoke too soon earlier re: timelines. First round of changes going in pretty soon."

Oh Arceus <god>, please say it so.

[halfawake]

Op, that's an awful idea. Play your best, they have all the data they need. If a spec has a high skill floor, it shouldn't be overpowered anyway (not that I think frost has a high skill floor, theres a lot of room for high skill players to shine with the spec but arguments about skill floor and skill ceiling balancing is a different matter). No spec should be overpowered and we really shouldn't be aiming to suck, ever. Have some dignity, we'll get ours soon enough. There are lots of mage haters out there nowadays, this attitude only fuels their hatred... take a step back and think it all over is my advice.

[Mindcloud]

I would like to say, that I think all the "they have data from beta" is a bit BS. They have data, IMO from more 'hardcore' players who wanted to raid in the beta, you're average joe isn't going to hop in beta and check it out, on a raiding schedule. They want to see what they can do to improve DPS of the more casual players TBH, and see overall how DPS works when people aren't the top 5-10% of the game trying to get legs up by testing the raids in beta.

[rhandric]

Basically what I'm thinking. They're going to give Arcane and Frost some love, and they're going to overbuff Fire, then knee-jerk nerf it back to the ground to an even worse point then it's at right now.

Don't worry...we'll get buffs, that they end up overtuning for one day, and the day after those go out, we'll be nerfed even further than we currently are!

I concur!

[Mountain Called Monkey]

Is it sad that we are all expecting a repeat of the October "buffs to nerfs" fiasco?

At this point I'm waiting for the spec reworks before I take any changes seriously. I just don't see much more to work with other than a constantly swinging pendulum between flat damage increases and decreases for individual spells.

[rhandric]

Is it sad that we are all expecting a repeat of the October "buffs to nerfs" fiasco?

At this point I'm waiting for the spec reworks before I take any changes seriously. I just don't see much more to work with other than a constantly swinging pendulum between flat damage increases and decreases for individual spells.

I was thinking more about patch 5.1

[Mountain Called Monkey]

I was thinking more about patch 5.1

I wasn't around for that, what happened?