[Holy] Holy Sh*t!: Warlords Edition

[Coppas]

This is a needed change IMO pallies have been sadly lacking this xpac and now at least they will be able to compete with other healers.

[Floopa]

This is a needed change IMO pallies have been sadly lacking this xpac and now at least they will be able to compete with other healers.

thanks for the signature buddy.

[Smag]

I wouldn't count this as just a buff, but more of QoL issue. All healers had a universal 3 min raid wide CD that is neutral to the damage source type, except paladins. Not anymore. No more, no less.

[Floopa]

I wouldn't count this as just a buff, but more of QoL issue. All healers had a universal 3 min raid wide CD that is neutral to the damage source type, except paladins. Not anymore. No more, no less.

avenging wrath? or is aw excluded because it's not counted on meters?

[Smag]

avenging wrath? or is aw excluded because it's not counted on meters?

So is DevAura. The keyword here is raid wide.
Yes AW is powerful, but it is just a rotation booster, like Ascendance or Tree of Life.

[Floopa]

So is DevAura. The keyword here is raid wide.
Yes AW is powerful, but it is just a rotation booster, like Ascendance or Tree of Life.

http://i.imgur.com/M4inlDd.png

sums up my feelings. AW clearly doesnt increase ur hps or effectiveness for a long enough duration to make the healing is generates equal to htt/tranq/revival/dh

[Deleted]

well i guess it means pallies are gonna see a big nerf somewhere

they're already the strongest healer with (as you guys call it, i wouldnt but it's whatever) the worst raid CD now they're changing it to be stronger than PW:B and you still have AW + beacon

does the hps need a nerf? nah i think pally mana costs (excluding radiance) should just be doubled, it would at least require pallies to gear for spirit which reduces the throughput anyway.

well i guess it means pallies are gonna see a big nerf somewhere
Oh yes! now for the 8 (random number, its an example, get over it) fights without any physical damage, where this change does not apply it totally makes sense to nerf us soley because of this change Floopa logic is best logic

[Diggy]

Bops will most likely play less of a role next tier, so this is done to somewhat offset that.

[Smag]

sums up my feelings. AW clearly doesnt increase ur hps or effectiveness for a long enough duration to make the healing is generates equal to htt/tranq/revival/dh

By your logic: Druids have 2 Tranqs - THE Tranq and Tree of Life (which is stupid OP if you ask me), Shamans have Asc AND SLT - what an outrage!

[Deleted]

By your logic: Druids have 2 Tranqs - THE Tranq and Tree of Life (which is stupid OP if you ask me), Shamans have Asc AND SLT - what an outrage!

Exactly, if you're gonna get salty about paladin's actual raid cooldown getting the attention it needed since the start of MoP, then you had better throw some to the shamans. They have THREE cooldowns! How unfair is that? And two of them even show up on meters. Ascendance doesn't even 'take' a talent slot. Outrageous. /s

What I will say is it's debatable whether or not the 20%/25% balance for DA/PW:B is fair considering the positional requirements of PW:B. Perhaps the percentages need to be revisited. I also feel like resto druids and holy priests need a little compensation for the removal of Aspect of the Fox, in the form of a major glyph which allows them to channel Tranq/DH while moving. That only seems fair.

[nightfalls]

Exactly, if you're gonna get salty about paladin's actual raid cooldown getting the attention it needed since the start of MoP, then you had better throw some to the shamans. They have THREE cooldowns! How unfair is that? And two of them even show up on meters. Ascendance doesn't even 'take' a talent slot. Outrageous. /s

Don't forget Elemental Mastery and Ancestral Guidance if talented! (or, more realistically, double SLT charge already is more than 1/3 minutes along with flexibility to match mechanics with it).

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does the hps need a nerf? nah i think pally mana costs (excluding radiance) should just be doubled, it would at least require pallies to gear for spirit which reduces the throughput anyway.

What Paladin needs is a way to convert mana into more throughput and possibly a nerf on the cheaper abilities. Basically a steeper mana curve. It might require having different HPS/effects from 3 abilities instead of them all having the same effect, but I think it isn't *that* daunting of a task for Blizzard devs.

Possibly something like:

* Slightly increase Holy Shock cost
* Add Holy Power generation to Flash of Light but greatly increase mana cost
* Increase healing of Holy Power spenders
* Allow Infusion of Light Holy Light to generate Holy Power, maybe add a Holy Radiance benefit to it as well


Increasing Beacon throughput if that is what they are looking at is flat out stupid. Maybe doing it enough will lower the value of bringing more than 1 Paladin to a raid, but you'll always be required to have one (similar to Disc situation). It simply adds more passive healing and mana efficiency, when the class needs less of both, and more active abilities as well as ways to spend mana (to be encouraged to take spirit).

[Floopa]

Don't forget Elemental Mastery and Ancestral Guidance if talented! (or, more realistically, double SLT charge already is more than 1/3 minutes along with flexibility to match mechanics with it).

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What Paladin needs is a way to convert mana into more throughput and possibly a nerf on the cheaper abilities. Basically a steeper mana curve. It might require having different HPS/effects from 3 abilities instead of them all having the same effect, but I think it isn't *that* daunting of a task for Blizzard devs.

Possibly something like:

* Slightly increase Holy Shock cost
* Add Holy Power generation to Flash of Light but greatly increase mana cost
* Increase healing of Holy Power spenders
* Allow Infusion of Light Holy Light to generate Holy Power, maybe add a Holy Radiance benefit to it as well


Increasing Beacon throughput if that is what they are looking at is flat out stupid. Maybe doing it enough will lower the value of bringing more than 1 Paladin to a raid, but you'll always be required to have one (similar to Disc situation). It simply adds more passive healing and mana efficiency, when the class needs less of both, and more active abilities as well as ways to spend mana (to be encouraged to take spirit).

paladins dont need a buff. what you're suggesting is buffing the strongest healer.

what paladins need is a nerf. simple as that.

[Clrg]

you're suggesting is buffing the strongest healer.

Do you mean shaman and priest?

[Diggy]

paladins dont need a buff. what you're suggesting is buffing the strongest healer.

what paladins need is a nerf. simple as that.

Actually, what he is suggesting is to make spirit an actual resource to worry about. Restraining us mana wise too much, would make us significantly weaker so he also proposes to increase the value of a mana free spenders. simple as that.

[Tiberria]

By your logic: Druids have 2 Tranqs - THE Tranq and Tree of Life (which is stupid OP if you ask me), Shamans have Asc AND SLT - what an outrage!

If you think that Tree of Life and Ascendance have anywhere approaching the power of Wings (whether glyphed or unglyphed), you're deluding yourself. On top of that, Incarnation is a talent that most high end Druids don't even take in the majority of situations.

[nightfalls]

paladins dont need a buff. what you're suggesting is buffing the strongest healer.

what paladins need is a nerf. simple as that.

Um wut?

"Slightly increase Holy Shock cost" - nerf

"Add Holy Power generation to Flash of Light but greatly increase mana cost" - relative lack of change, you don't really use FoL that much, this would give you a reason to use it now but that means you need Spirit to support it

"Increase healing of Holy Power spenders" - buff IF nothing else was done, but it is designed around the previous two nerfs. the "free" spenders do more, but you need to pay more to get them, so really it is not a buff. Think of the change I suggested to FoL, same idea - increase output AND effective cost.

"Allow Infusion of Light Holy Light to generate Holy Power, add Holy Radiance benefit" - this is just for consistency. The idea is you always want infusion HL > FoL. The HR benefit would be a "buff" but really it's just to make an unused ability (anyway) less dog-shit.

Here's another couple of "supporting" changes (which I didn't include b/c they are just mechanical and meant to support above, without changing much) that could be done as well:

* Reduce Infusion proc rate (either by reducing base crit on Holy Shock or some other way) - nerf

* Remove the Holy Shock perk and replace it with a better one - most likely another "nerf" but really to counter-balance HS spenders being less useless.


All of this is designed to make Paladin require more spirit. That means less output stat. That, already, as you even said, is a nerf.

[Floopa]

oh so you think increasing mana cost and hps results in a nerf?

yep, i mean the last time they changed RJW they made it cost 30% more mana and heal for 30% more. and that spell totally fucking sucks doesn't it? (hint: it doesn't)

the day when pallies admit they're op is the day this game might actually see healing become fun ^^

honest question, why wouldn't you just take 3 paladins and 1 disc to buffer PWS to mythic raids with the devo change? there is actually 0 reason for any other healers to exist other than pallies right now.

[Deleted]

oh so you think increasing mana cost and hps results in a nerf?

yep, i mean the last time they changed RJW they made it cost 30% more mana and heal for 30% more. and that spell totally fucking sucks doesn't it? (hint: it doesn't)

the day when pallies admit they're op is the day this game might actually see healing become fun ^^

honest question, why wouldn't you just take 3 paladins and 1 disc to buffer PWS to mythic raids with the devo change? there is actually 0 reason for any other healers to exist other than pallies right now.

Can't you go troll some where else please.

[Malthanis]

Guys, chill.

[nightfalls]

i mean the last time they changed RJW they made it cost 30% more mana and heal for 30% more. and that spell totally fucking sucks doesn't it? (hint: it doesn't)

They also increased passive mana a lot on monks when really they needed to just remove Mana Tea (and rebalance around that).

1 Holy Power should still be worth less than "greatly increased mana cost" - the problem with Paladin now is that they are too strong on the low end of mana usage a huge part thanks to Tier 17 (which might be nerfed if it competes with Tier 18) but have no means of actually spending mana.

Increasing the return from spending mana means you spend more mana.

Increasing Holy Shock cost means you spend a huge amount more mana than before (because you cast HS that damn often) so even a modest increase there is actually a pretty big nerf to mana.

Reducing IoL procs (say by making Holy Shock's crit bonus smaller) nerfs Holy Light indirectly because you'll actually have the decision to full cast a 2.5 second HL versus using mana on the new expensive FoL rather than having HL be straight out better than FoL most of the time.