Thread: Drag Queens

Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ...
4
5
6
7
LastLast
  1. #101
    Legendary! Gothicshark's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Leftcoast 2 blocks from the beach, down the street from a green haze called Venice.
    Posts
    6,727
    Quote Originally Posted by Revi View Post
    Can we not present "if they say they're another gender based on their own perception of gender roles, that's the way it is" as a scientifically backed up fact?

    They don't have the brains of the other gender as far as anyone knows, that's never been remotely proven (no, similarities in size of brain halves isn't close to the same).

    Be as accepting or supporting as you wish, but keep the genetic arguments based in real genetics.
    You clearly have no idea what the science on this says.

    1. Anthropologists, have determined through 150+ years of observation and study. Modern Gender roles are purely a modern invention. Most Hunter Gather societies ie African Aboriginals, South American Aboriginals, and Australian Aboriginals, traditionally do not have any gender roles until childbirth, women generally spend more time with the children than men. Both males and female hunt, both males and females gather. However in these archaic societies they have gender non-conforming individuals, and they actually have a separate role within the communities. They usually end up as witch-doctors, shaman, or other culturally significant religious people, ie primitive societies gay and trans means they become the priest class.

    2. Cutting edge science says, the assumed binaries of gender are false. And more research is needed. There are plenty of case studies, and small number studies that show the assumptions from the past to be false, however there has not yet been a full or comprehensive study on the subject, yet every-time they look closely the data comes up with unexpected results.

    ie they recently discovered Chimera DNA in humans, something that is common in lower mammals, but has never been officially documented until recently. In fact no one ever stopped to think it was possible.

    So you stand on old assumptions, and refuse to see that humanity is only just now discovering how complex humans really are.

  2. #102
    The Insane Revi's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    The land of the ice and snow.
    Posts
    15,628
    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    You clearly have no idea what the science on this says.

    1. Anthropologists, have determined through 150+ years of observation and study. Modern Gender roles are purely a modern invention. Most Hunter Gather societies ie African Aboriginals, South American Aboriginals, and Australian Aboriginals, traditionally do not have any gender roles until childbirth, women generally spend more time with the children than men. Both males and female hunt, both males and females gather. However in these archaic societies they have gender non-conforming individuals, and they actually have a separate role within the communities. They usually end up as witch-doctors, shaman, or other culturally significant religious people, ie primitive societies gay and trans means they become the priest class.

    2. Cutting edge science says, the assumed binaries of gender are false. And more research is needed. There are plenty of case studies, and small number studies that show the assumptions from the past to be false, however there has not yet been a full or comprehensive study on the subject, yet every-time they look closely the data comes up with unexpected results.

    ie they recently discovered Chimera DNA in humans, something that is common in lower mammals, but has never been officially documented until recently. In fact no one ever stopped to think it was possible.

    So you stand on old assumptions, and refuse to see that humanity is only just now discovering how complex humans really are.
    I didn't make any assumptions. I said not to present brain differences like you did (i.e. like some have male sex but female brains or vice versa). Nothing in this post backs up this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    For starters, gender is non-binary. I know growing up you were taught "man & woman, boy & girl". The truth is much more complex, for starters, some people are born looking male, but are actually female genetically. Some people are born looking female but are male genetically. Some people are for the most part genetically one gender, but have the brain of the opposite gender.
    Don't muddle together cultural gender roles and genetics. You can support peoples rights to choose without needing science to prove anything.
    Last edited by Revi; 2015-05-30 at 01:37 AM.

  3. #103
    Legendary! Jaxi's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Yogurt.
    Posts
    6,037
    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    2. Cutting edge science says, the assumed binaries of gender are false. And more research is needed. There are plenty of case studies, and small number studies that show the assumptions from the past to be false, however there has not yet been a full or comprehensive study on the subject, yet every-time they look closely the data comes up with unexpected results.

    ie they recently discovered Chimera DNA in humans, something that is common in lower mammals, but has never been officially documented until recently. In fact no one ever stopped to think it was possible.
    Chimerism is not that new, not that studied, and results in expressed genetics of one sex or the other.

    Gender is a social term. Sex is a biological term. People can change their gender all they want, but their sex is not something we know how to change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imadraenei View Post
    You can find that unbiased view somewhere between Atlantis and that unicorn farm down the street, just off Interstate √(-1).

  4. #104
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    In Security Watching...
    Posts
    43,696
    Seems like hatred and bigotry, trying to associate what others do, as being something someone else is responsibly for, because of narrow minded assholes, who also hate.
    Milli Vanilli, Bigger than Elvis

  5. #105
    Drag is a cultural art form. That's all. You don't need to be gay or male to participate, and there are a lot of sub divisions of it, like pageant queens, comedy queens, horror queens, etc.

    If you don't like stand up comedy, don't go see a show. If you don't like drag, don't see a show. There's no need to psychologically dissect why it exists. It's just art.

  6. #106
    I hate them as much as any far off stereotype, Jersey shore stereotype? I hate snookie, Real housewive of rich whatever place, Hate them, any race that feeds into a stereotype and doesn't do anything to better their lives. Hate them.

    It might be an act but what things like this do for us homosexual males fighting for gay rights does is show that we are obnoxious annoying and in your face. Be chill and relax how hard is it?

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    We have a word for that (when referring to genitals) which is "sex".
    I am finding it difficult to understand what your point is.
    Shahaad , Kevkul
    <Magdalena's pet>

  8. #108
    Legendary! Gothicshark's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Leftcoast 2 blocks from the beach, down the street from a green haze called Venice.
    Posts
    6,727
    Quote Originally Posted by Revi View Post
    I didn't make any assumptions. I said not to present brain differences like you did (i.e. like some have male sex but female brains or vice versa). Nothing in this post backs up this:



    Don't muddle together cultural gender roles and genetics. You can support peoples rights to choose without needing science to prove anything.
    the "For starters" quote was specifically talking about non-binary sex. Specifically inter-sexuality. If you have had even a 1st year college level in human biology or psychology you would have recognized the terms I used.

    For starters, gender is non-binary. I know growing up you were taught "man & woman, boy & girl". The truth is much more complex, for starters, some people are born looking male, but are actually female genetically. Some people are born looking female but are male genetically. Some people are for the most part genetically one gender, but have the brain of the opposite gender.
    Basically Some humans are born expressing sexual development opposite of their DNA sex. The term is called Inter-sexuality. Give a good read on it.

    As for brain studies, there hasn't been many, and they have not been done on a large enough scale to be conclusive as I said before, however the data so far shows that people of non-traditional gender roles have brain patterns, and brain development similar to the opposite birth sex.

    Basically science say 'need more data' in every case so far. However all current evidence points to Humans are more complex than binary.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxi View Post
    Chimerism is not that new, not that studied, and results in expressed genetics of one sex or the other.

    Gender is a social term. Sex is a biological term. People can change their gender all they want, but their sex is not something we know how to change.
    huhhh? What is your point, I used Chimera as an example of something recently discovered that surprised medical science. And you post a study that says just that? I said Gender is a modern invention, and you say it's a social construct. Which is what I said. Your word use seems like you are disagreeing while posting agreements at the same time?

  9. #109
    Legendary! Jaxi's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Yogurt.
    Posts
    6,037
    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    huhhh? What is your point, I used Chimera as an example of something recently discovered that surprised medical science. And you post a study that says just that? I said Gender is a modern invention, and you say it's a social construct. Which is what I said. Your word use seems like you are disagreeing while posting agreements at the same time?
    It isn't new. The study looks at a 1950's example. It is a social construct, whether it is new or not is debatable. Gender roles are certainly not.

    You're partly right, though. I was addressing more than just you. When sex and gender are used almost interchangeably (above you) it irks me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imadraenei View Post
    You can find that unbiased view somewhere between Atlantis and that unicorn farm down the street, just off Interstate √(-1).

  10. #110
    Legendary! Gothicshark's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Leftcoast 2 blocks from the beach, down the street from a green haze called Venice.
    Posts
    6,727
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxi View Post
    It isn't new. The study looks at a 1950's example. It is a social construct, whether it is new or not is debatable. Gender roles are certainly not.

    You're partly right, though. I was addressing more than just you. When sex and gender are used almost interchangeably (above you) it irks me.
    1958 was the first discovered human Chimera, it was considered a one off event at the time, but recent studies are finding that it is actually a lot more common, and is causing concerns with organ transplants, when a donor is a chimera. It's happened a few times recently.

  11. #111
    The Insane Revi's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    The land of the ice and snow.
    Posts
    15,628
    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    the "For starters" quote was specifically talking about non-binary sex. Specifically inter-sexuality. If you have had even a 1st year college level in human biology or psychology you would have recognized the terms I used.



    Basically Some humans are born expressing sexual development opposite of their DNA sex. The term is called Inter-sexuality. Give a good read on it.

    As for brain studies, there hasn't been many, and they have not been done on a large enough scale to be conclusive as I said before, however the data so far shows that people of non-traditional gender roles have brain patterns, and brain development similar to the opposite birth sex.

    Basically science say 'need more data' in every case so far. However all current evidence points to Humans are more complex than binary.
    If you were talking about intersex in response to a post about cross-dressers and trans people, you need to specify that. It's a different topic entirely, as most cross-dressers and trans people aren't intersex. Intersex is a physically observable condition.

    And yes, the studies aren't conclusive at all, so let's stop stating what we want to be true as facts.

  12. #112
    Closest thing I've ever seen to a drag queen was a 6'4 man wearing a dress and heels. Looked as masculine as a man could be. Just found it repulsive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    We have had multiple threads of white people complaining that black people were offended over some racist thing some white person said.
    Here we have a thread of white people offended over something some racist black person said.
    The key difference is that the white people in this thread aren't being told "shut up stop being offended get over it."

  13. #113
    Legendary! Gothicshark's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Leftcoast 2 blocks from the beach, down the street from a green haze called Venice.
    Posts
    6,727
    Quote Originally Posted by Revi View Post
    If you were talking about intersex in response to a post about cross-dressers and trans people, you need to specify that. It's a different topic entirely, as most cross-dressers and trans people aren't intersex. Intersex is a physically observable condition.

    And yes, the studies aren't conclusive at all, so let's stop stating what we want to be true as facts.
    Intersex is always an important part of this discussion, since it proves without a doubt humans are more complicated than binary. You can not ignore their existence when talking transgender. Also not all intersexual patients are easily identifiable, and it is not always an observable condition.

    When talking about physical sex, humans are not binary.
    When talking about gender, it is a social construct of civilized human kind, and is not found in hunter-gatherer communities.
    When talking about human DNA, even in one body the DNA may not be consistent.
    When looking at brain scans, and other tests the image is that humans are non-binary.

    So if you want to talk about this subject leave your bigotry at the door because the issue is much more complex.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dashflash890 View Post
    Closest thing I've ever seen to a drag queen was a 6'4 man wearing a dress and heels. Looked as masculine as a man could be. Just found it repulsive.
    That is your own personal social conditioning, and not the other person. If you are repulsed you are in the wrong.

  14. #114
    Old God endersblade's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    10,804
    As a straight guy, I think they're hilarious fun to hang around. Have never had a bad time with them. But I also hang out with gays and whatnot, and I used to frequent gay bars with my gay friends, so I may be biased lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Warwithin View Post
    Politicians put their hand on the BIBLE and swore to uphold the CONSTITUTION. They did not put their hand on the CONSTITUTION and swear to uphold the BIBLE.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Except maybe Morgan Freeman. That man could convince God to be an atheist with that voice of his . . .
    Quote Originally Posted by LiiLoSNK View Post
    If your girlfriend is a girl and you're a guy, your kid is destined to be some sort of half girl/half guy abomination.

  15. #115
    Titan
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    America's Hat
    Posts
    14,128
    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    our opinion doesn't matter, since science and medicine is involved.

    For starters, gender is non-binary. I know growing up you were taught "man & woman, boy & girl". The truth is much more complex, for starters, some people are born looking male, but are actually female genetically. Some people are born looking female but are male genetically. Some people are for the most part genetically one gender, but have the brain of the opposite gender.

    Humans are far more complex than A or B.

    Think of it as Coca-cola vs Pepsi-Cola, for some people they like the taste of one or the other, very few like the taste of both, and some can't stand cola. The reason for this is simple, humans are complex creatures, and can not be placed in uniform categories.
    It is as simple as A and B at the very basic level and the majority of the human race knows that their gender assignment matches their brain, but at what point do we really know that? I was born a man because I have all the body functions and design of a man. The opposite is true of women. Sure, maybe some people feel like they should have been assigned the opposite gender at birth, but I would imagine that by a fairly reasonable age, you would know that wouldn't you? I have a friend/coworker who was born female, but was on hormone therapy from a fairly young age, and by the time I met him, you would not have had any clue that he was aside from having small hands and being short. Aside from not having the complete physiology of a male, obviously not being born with male reproductive organs, he would have fooled anyone and did to me and many others at my work place. It didn't change my opinion on him either since he is a great person. I just get creeped out by the preop and post op dudes who have had sex changes posing as women and there are a lot of them prowling on dating sites, speaking from personal experience in that matter as well. We are who we are and I can respect people's life choices, but it doesn't mean I have to accept them. I guess that is what I was trying to get at.

  16. #116
    Legendary! Gothicshark's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Leftcoast 2 blocks from the beach, down the street from a green haze called Venice.
    Posts
    6,727
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    It is as simple as A and B at the very basic level and the majority of the human race knows that their gender assignment matches their brain, but at what point do we really know that? I was born a man because I have all the body functions and design of a man. The opposite is true of women. Sure, maybe some people feel like they should have been assigned the opposite gender at birth, but I would imagine that by a fairly reasonable age, you would know that wouldn't you? I have a friend/coworker who was born female, but was on hormone therapy from a fairly young age, and by the time I met him, you would not have had any clue that he was aside from having small hands and being short. Aside from not having the complete physiology of a male, obviously not being born with male reproductive organs, he would have fooled anyone and did to me and many others at my work place. It didn't change my opinion on him either since he is a great person. I just get creeped out by the preop and post op dudes who have had sex changes posing as women and there are a lot of them prowling on dating sites, speaking from personal experience in that matter as well. We are who we are and I can respect people's life choices, but it doesn't mean I have to accept them. I guess that is what I was trying to get at.
    When talking about this subject, nothing in it has to do with the Majority.

    Gender is social, same with clothing. Everything men wore in 1700 is now considered female clothing.


    King of France Louis XIV 5 September 1638 – 1 September 1715


    As to this misconception "lifestyle choice", not a single Trans Woman I have ever met would have chosen to be ridiculed and ostracized by society. I personally made every effort to be more manly and more of a man then anyone I know. I was a US Marine, among my many failures to prove to myself I was male.

    The fact is all any of us want is to be comfortable in our own skin. But A-holes remind us daily why as men we are effeminate, faggy, queer, so when we finally say f*it and transition those same men still say the same BS, but we have moved to 0 F's given by that point.

    On top of this you prove what a hypocrite you are since it's ok for a woman to become a man, but it's not ok for a man to become a woman. What's so horrible about women that it makes it wrong?

  17. #117
    The Birdcage was an awesome movie.

  18. #118
    Legendary! Jaxi's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Yogurt.
    Posts
    6,037
    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    When talking about physical sex, humans are not binary.
    Yes we are. What is this even supposed to mean? Abnormalities rising from genetic disorders or lack of expression does not imply a third or more sex. We have sexual expression as males and females in our species. Defects occur, but do not change the X-Y determination.
    When talking about gender, it is a social construct of civilized human kind, and is not found in hunter-gatherer communities.
    Don't speak for all of them.
    "Though not every hunter-gatherer population pinpoints females to gathering and males to hunting (most notably the Aeta[5] and Ju'/hoansi[6]), the norm of most current populations divide the roles of labor in this manner."

    When talking about human DNA, even in one body the DNA may not be consistent.
    Yet expressed consistently. Even the hermaphroditic human of the study I posted earlier developed into a male. Again, don't mistake abnormalities with normalities. We have trillions of cells in our bodies, there are bound to be abnormalities. It doesn't constitute a new genetically identifiable sex.
    Turner- female.
    Klinefelter- male.
    XXY- male.

    And so on. Our species tries to express as male or female. Defects and other abnormalities occur, but again, that does not imply the existence of a third or more sex.

    I actually should be asking why this is even in question. You've said it, I've said it, others have said it: sex =/= gender. Drag queens have to do with gender.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imadraenei View Post
    You can find that unbiased view somewhere between Atlantis and that unicorn farm down the street, just off Interstate √(-1).

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    That is your own personal social conditioning, and not the other person. If you are repulsed you are in the wrong.
    I don't think it's fair to say that someone being repulsed by drag (or anything) is wrong. I don't exactly choose to feel intense disgust for alcohol, for instance.
    Shahaad , Kevkul
    <Magdalena's pet>

  20. #120
    Legendary! Gothicshark's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Leftcoast 2 blocks from the beach, down the street from a green haze called Venice.
    Posts
    6,727
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxi View Post
    Yes we are. What is this even supposed to mean? Abnormalities rising from genetic disorders or lack of expression does not imply a third or more sex. We have sexual expression as males and females in our species. Defects occur, but do not change the X-Y determination.

    Don't speak for all of them.
    "Though not every hunter-gatherer population pinpoints females to gathering and males to hunting (most notably the Aeta[5] and Ju'/hoansi[6]), the norm of most current populations divide the roles of labor in this manner."


    Yet expressed consistently. Even the hermaphroditic human of the study I posted earlier developed into a male. Again, don't mistake abnormalities with normalities. We have trillions of cells in our bodies, there are bound to be abnormalities. It doesn't constitute a new genetically identifiable sex.
    Turner- female.
    Klinefelter- male.
    XXY- male.

    And so on. Our species tries to express as male or female. Defects and other abnormalities occur, but again, that does not imply the existence of a third or more sex.

    I actually should be asking why this is even in question. You've said it, I've said it, others have said it: sex =/= gender. Drag queens have to do with gender.
    It's because abnormalities happen I point these things out, anyone under the umbrella of Transgender is not a part of the majority, they are apart of the abnormality. The abnormality that is not sex or gender binary. You make a lot of effort to fight against this idea, and you contradict your self by doing so.

    There is male, there is female. The majority, common, accepted.

    A small percent of the population does not fit nicely in those boxes, whether it is a birth defect or a hormonal imbalance as a fetus, or the other hypothesized reasons, the truth is, humans are not binary. It's just the abnormal ones are not that common.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahad View Post
    I don't think it's fair to say that someone being repulsed by drag (or anything) is wrong. I don't exactly choose to feel intense disgust for alcohol, for instance.
    It's the feeling of disgust because someone else is doing something that makes them happy.


    lets take listening to country music.

    Person A loves country music, wears cowboy clothing drives a ford pickup and has a 3 legged dog, and a bottle of whiskey.
    Person B hates person A because of they dress the part of country music.


    Person B is in the wrong.


    Having emotional feelings and opinions about the actions of other is wrong.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •