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  1. #161
    I swear in one patch the community went from spitting on Jaina for being a weak sissy because she wasn't bloodthirsty to spitting on her for being bloodthirsty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    option C:
    flooding orgrimmar is a rational action in response to horde aggression directed at a legitimate military target
    In the same way that the twin towers were a legitimate military target in response to US aggression in 2001.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
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    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That would actually be completely lame and dumb, because it would imply that the Sunreavers were not at fault for turning a blind eye to the betrayal one of their members committed, choosing to protect him instead of following Kirin-Tor's rules of punishing him.
    The sunreavers were not at fault for what happened.

    Yes, they had double-agents within their ranks, but its not like these double-agents operated in the open and all the sunreavers knew them and knew what they were doing. Also, I need to remind you that a lot of the Sunreavers were civilians who had nothing to do with any of that political bullshit and were just minding their own business.

    Punishing an entire ethnic group for the actions of a few is NEVER justified. Besides, several alliance organizations have had traitorous members inside of them too. Look at the Darnassus druids with their traitors (Leyara, Fandral) or the Church of Stormwind with their traitors (Benedictus, Black Bishop). And yet when these traitors were exposed, did the alliance ever do a massive inquisition-style purge of the druids or priests? nope. Quite the opposite, they covered the whole thing up, and pretended they weren't even traitors.

    That's alliance hypocrisy and double-standard right there. IF the traitors are human or from any other alliance race, pfft its just a few bad seeds. If the traitor happens to be from a horde race? KILL THEM FUCKERS DOWN WITH FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrSaggins View Post

    But how will Vereesa and the Silver Cove handle it?
    Hopefully they'll get violent about it and then its our turn to purge THEM out of the city. I know its unlikely, but hey, I can dream no?

    Por que odiar si amar es mas dulce? (*^_^*)

  3. #163
    There was a prophecy from Korialstraz saying Jaina would be Leader of Dalaran.
    So making Khadgar the Leader doesnt make sense at all...
    The Lore breaking in Legion is real...

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    While Jaina may or may not have overreacted (it's a point of contention that is immaterial to this subject), kicking her out as an 'apology to the Sunreavers' is like a jury convicting a family man with assault for beating an armed robber that broke into his house in the middle of the night, and letting the robber go free without so much as a slap on the wrist.
    Your analogy is piss poor.

    Its more along the lines of a jury convicting a family man with assault because he beat an armed robber that broke into his house in the middle of the night, realized the robber was his neighbor and then proceeded to beat the living shit out of the wife and daughter of the robber who did nothing wrong in the first place.

    Ohh and the robber wasn't let go free "without so much as a slap on the wrist."

    People died, in case you forgot. Those who didn't die were still tortured. On the horde side of that purge, you see silver covenant thugs beating up helpless civilians in the sewers, and one of them is even feeding the dalaran shark with innocent people.

    Innocent civilian blood elves were killed, tortured, expelled from their homes, had all their money and all their posessions illegally stripped from them, and plenty of others were wrongly incarcerated despite having commited no crime other than being the same race as someone else who was a traitor.

    "without a slap on the wrist" my ass.

    Por que odiar si amar es mas dulce? (*^_^*)

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Derah View Post
    The sunreavers were not at fault for what happened.

    Yes, they had double-agents within their ranks, but its not like these double-agents operated in the open and all the sunreavers knew them and knew what they were doing. Also, I need to remind you that a lot of the Sunreavers were civilians who had nothing to do with any of that political bullshit and were just minding their own business.

    Punishing an entire ethnic group for the actions of a few is NEVER justified. Besides, several alliance organizations have had traitorous members inside of them too. Look at the Darnassus druids with their traitors (Leyara, Fandral) or the Church of Stormwind with their traitors (Benedictus, Black Bishop). And yet when these traitors were exposed, did the alliance ever do a massive inquisition-style purge of the druids or priests? nope. Quite the opposite, they covered the whole thing up, and pretended they weren't even traitors.

    That's alliance hypocrisy and double-standard right there. IF the traitors are human or from any other alliance race, pfft its just a few bad seeds. If the traitor happens to be from a horde race? KILL THEM FUCKERS DOWN WITH FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Hopefully they'll get violent about it and then its our turn to purge THEM out of the city. I know its unlikely, but hey, I can dream no?
    Thats not double standard...
    Jaina was all for peace and stuff with the horde but Garrosh just fucked Theramore, killed all her people (her apprentice) and even Rhonin (the goddamn leader of the council of six at that time).
    But well lets just forget all about that and shovel Jaina to side...

    They have to have a good story for this happening or its like the whole timetravel stuff - not well thought

  6. #166
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeerah View Post
    There was a prophecy from Korialstraz saying Jaina would be Leader of Dalaran.
    So making Khadgar the Leader doesnt make sense at all...
    The Lore breaking in Legion is real...
    She was leader, though. The prophecy was fulfilled. Also, The prophecy was stupid as shit.

    After the red comes the silver,
    She who was golden and bright;
    The Proud Lady humbled and bitter,
    Shall now turn her thoughts to the fight.

    Sapphire to diamond she gleams now,
    The Kirin Tor leader who comes,
    “Queen” of a kingdom now fallen,
    Marching to war’s martial drums.

    Be ye warned—the tides of war
    At last shall break upon the shore.

    It's a warning that war is coming and says warmonger Jaina will be put in charge of the Kirin Tor... when they are trying to be neutral. If anything, this is a warning to stay the fuck away from Jaina.

    Besides, that war ended with SoO.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2015-08-18 at 08:29 PM.

  7. #167
    The Lightbringer Dartz1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ganker View Post
    Since in Legion, Dalaran is coming back as a neutral city - does it mean that patch 5.1 storyline has been retconned?

    Because why the hell would any blood elf or even any member of the Horde step into that city after The Purge of Dalaran?

    And you can't justify it by saying that Dalaran is now lead by Khadgar, not Jaina.

    It doesn't make any sense.
    There is a reason Jaina left she is having her own group of faction this will get explained in the story

  8. #168
    Bloodsail Admiral WillFeral's Avatar
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    You're trying to apply logic in a game where you receive dragon's in the mail.
    Here come the Irish.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeerah View Post
    Jaina was all for peace and stuff with the horde but Garrosh just fucked Theramore, killed all her people (her apprentice) and even Rhonin (the goddamn leader of the council of six at that time).
    So? In case you forgot, Theramoore was a military target. It was the largest alliance base in south Kalimdor, and they had launched from there attacks on the horde on not one, or two, or three, or four, but FIVE different fronts.

    Yes, Theramoore troops willingly attacked the horde on five different fronts (Durotar, North Barrens, South Barrens, Stonetalon, and Dustwallow). Fuck with the bull and you'll get the horns.

    In truth and honesty, you tell me, how else was she expecting the horde to react when she's attacked them in so many fronts? And don't give me that bullshit that "she didn't do it". Because the alliance were freely using her city to funnel troops into horde lands, and her very own men, wearing theramoore tabards, were also attacking the horde lands as well. What, was she expecting the horde to roll over, bend, and take it up the ass? just lie on the ground and die? seriously?

    Also, Rhonin died because he chose to intervene. Dalaran was a neutral city, yet they decided to participate in the defense of theramoore. He made his bed, now sleep on it.

    Por que odiar si amar es mas dulce? (*^_^*)

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    of course you are not making any arguments, that's the problem
    I'm not sure what is a problem with making an observation. Though I don't really want to know.


    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    and Dalaran was said to be the win for the alliance and now it's being taken away
    So for it to be a win, it has to remain that way till the end of time? Yes, I'd say in this case the Alliance complaints are indeed invalid, because this is just sheer lunacy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    as for the second part it's incredibly unprofessional for a major company with millions of players to act like 12 year old children, if i was in charge of the lore I'd actually look into the complaints, try to understand them (maybe you know actually speak with the playerbase) and try my best to provide an enjoyable gaming experience for both sides
    but blizz is the company that put someone on stage calling the alliance playerbase faggots, so here we are
    But there are complaints from Alliance side no matter what they do, even if it's addressing previous complaints. Of the "QQ Blizzard sucks Horde's dick and hates each and every one of us personally" magnitude. They can't very well satisfy everyone.


    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    there is also the use of words like "whining, whinefest, never satisfied, victim complex" etc which implies that all the alliance complaints are invalid, which is also a matter of debate
    Considering that certain part of Alliance playerbase does whine about everything, ranging from Horde, through Blizzard, to breathing the same air as Horde players, I'd say the complaints of that part of their playerbase are invalid. Like, I dunno, making a hyperbole that Alliance had only one win between the start of Cata and the end of MoP and that win is no longer a win because story progression "took it away". They are best left alone so that they can cry to themselves so much that they dry out and rid the world of their self entitlement-ridden victimhood.


    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    so we both agree that horde won the war and the alliance lost it right?
    Again, if you're of this opinion, I'm not exactly sure why you expected the Horde to suffer consequences of the war.


    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    of course not, you can interpret it as emotional jaina, or crazy jaina, I just provided the third option
    But you initialy said attacking Orgrimmar was the rational choice, without delving into Jaina's mind state (or mentioning Jaina at all). Attacking Orgrimmar being rational in itself can coexist with Jaina being ruled by emotions when she made that choice. Irrational people can take, for irrational reasons, choices that are rational on their own.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Actually, you're wrong, here. The reason she confronted him was exactly because she was very displeased with what Aethas did (or didn't do).
    Weren't you talking about how Aethas was evil because he didn't turn in the "traitor"? Because she did not mention that at all. Unless you moved goalposts again, it's rather hard to keep track of all the times you do. Either way, she just threw random accusations at him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Actually, not really. Aethas is a powerful mage. The guy threatening him was just a common orc soldier. 'Being threatened' only counts as duress if the person doing the threatening is actually much more powerful than the one being threatened, and here it was the inverse. Aethas could have easily charred the flesh off the orc's bones right then and there. As for claiming the threat came from Garrosh, Aethas is STILL more powerful than Garrosh, one-on-one, and in a battle of armies, Garrosh's orc army would lose in a fight against the rest of the Horde, and the Alliance. Garrosh isn't that strong, personally or army-wise. He only held out for that long because he holed up in his Orgrimmar fortress during SoO.
    Yes, let's ignore all the military and political power Garrosh had, in a fucking dictatorship no less, because acknowledging that would be another inconvenient thing to your narrative. Also, let's ignore the fact it was the Blood Elves in Silvermoon that have been threatened.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Being 'neutral' does not mean being indifferent to genocide.
    Switzerland says hi again. It only stayed neutral during the worst genocide in human history. Seriously, drop the word-bending of neutrality from your posts, you've shown times and times again you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I know you want to lorebend Jaina's way out of breaking Dalaran's neutrality first really, really hard, but you're doing a terrible job at it. And what genocide are you talking about here?

    Also, gotta love the goalpost moving here. First you say "Garrosh totally would have attacked them next" as an excuse for the neutrality breaking and since that didn't work, hey, let's conjure some genocide!


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The Divine Bell can literally empower your army while causing fear and confusion in the opponent's army, as shown here. And you really think I'm 'blowing the bell's power out of proportion'?
    Considering that nothing here says "enslaving the whole world", yes?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except I'm not 'victim blaming'. If I see a man on the street, a man I have already seen starting fights with other people with little to no provocation, and I decide to cause grief to said person, what would happen to me in answer to that would be entirely my fault. This is Aethas' situation. He knew very well what could happen if he pissed off Jaina.
    Huh, provocation by inaction. That's new. Makes little sense to me. And even if he directly taunted Jaina, her reaction was grossly disproportionate. Moreover, I'm not sure what do you base Aethas omniscience in regards to Jaina's mental health state.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    Ironically, neutral organizations would have had far more legit justifications to intervene in the 5.4, with Garrosh going completely over-the-top (directly meddling with the heart of a freaking Old God) and a Rebellion within the Horde focused to dethrone him for good, along with the Alliance. And yet, you see no neutral party intervene in the affair. Still, Jaina and her Kirin Tor interfered in a moment where the war wasn't absolutely near such a level of mess and factions were still perfectly defined.
    Considering the Alliance players talking about Garrosh "declaring war on all neutral factions" in the other Jaina thread, why they didn't intervene is a complete mystery


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Wow... and you accuse me of 'reaching'. It makes me wonder if you truly played WoW at all during Mists of Pandaria. Basically every action from Garrosh had the end of the Alliance in mind.
    You are capable of realizing that you can win the war and even dismantle a hostile alliance without committing a genocide, right? Or is my faith in you unreasonable?
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2015-08-18 at 06:52 PM.
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    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
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    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  11. #171
    Pit Lord goblingirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ganker View Post
    Since in Legion, Dalaran is coming back as a neutral city - does it mean that patch 5.1 storyline has been retconned?

    Because why the hell would any blood elf or even any member of the Horde step into that city after The Purge of Dalaran?

    And you can't justify it by saying that Dalaran is now lead by Khadgar, not Jaina.

    It doesn't make any sense.
    Of course you can, and yes, it does make sense. Khadgar doesn't share Jaina's anger at the Horde right now. In fact, he just spent a couple of years (in game time) helping Horde heroes build the same legendary rings as Alliance players. He's pretty neutral at this point. He's got his eye on a bigger threat (the Legion) and is no doubt continuing to try to get leadership of both factions to work together.

    So, Khadgar taking over leadership of the Kirin Tor, and therefore taking over administration of Dalaran, and then extending hospitality to the Horde again... to be expected. He let Horde players visit his Tower in Zangarra, no reason he wouldn't let them hang in his city as well.

  12. #172
    Deleted
    Why not fly and crash Dalaran straight into Orgrimmar?

    Just need to find a Draenei pilot!

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeerah View Post
    Thats not double standard...
    Jaina was all for peace and stuff with the horde but Garrosh just fucked Theramore, killed all her people (her apprentice) and even Rhonin (the goddamn leader of the council of six at that time).
    But well lets just forget all about that and shovel Jaina to side...

    They have to have a good story for this happening or its like the whole timetravel stuff - not well thought
    If Jaina was for peace she would have made Theramore a neutral ground in which no alliance troops would be allowed to enter (or horde troops for that matter) during the alliance/horde war. Thereby not making herself a target for attack.

  14. #174
    Jaina probably did just what you are complaining about so Khadwell had to put his foot down, throw the bitch to the door, and piloted that floating town towards unknown.
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  15. #175
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Weren't you talking about how Aethas was evil
    I never said he was evil. And as for 'not mentioning the traitor', it's irrelevant what Jaina said, there. What is fact is that: a) Aethas knew of the theft; b) Kirin Tor resources were used; and c) there was a Sunreaver traitor. By opting to no go to the council and blow the whistle on what was going on, and since he knew of Jaina's trauma, he was the pivotal character in causing the 'Purge'.

    Yes, let's ignore all the military and political power Garrosh had, in a fucking dictatorship no less, because acknowledging that would be another inconvenient thing to your narrative. Also, let's ignore the fact it was the Blood Elves in Silvermoon that have been threatened.
    What military power? All Garrosh had was an army of orcs, which may or may not be greater than each other horde race, individually. But combined? Garrosh's army wouldn't last too long. He may have had 'superior technology', but that wouldn't win the war for him, by itself, especially a war fought against two fronts. Remember: he was fighting the Horde rebellion and the Alliance.

    As for 'political power'... what political power? What political power did Garrosh have when all the other member factions of the Horde were openly fighting against Garrosh?

    Huh, provocation by inaction. That's new. Makes little sense to me. And even if he directly taunted Jaina, her reaction was grossly disproportionate. Moreover, I'm not sure what do you base Aethas omniscience in regards to Jaina's mental health state.
    Aethas found out about the theft of the Divine Bell but opted to not say or do anything. That's offense by inaction. As for your little joke about 'omniscience', it's cute, but you're grossly wrong here as Jaina's mental and emotional state was not a secret since what she almost did to Orgrimmar wasn't exactly subtle. Plus her trauma at Theramore was not kept a secret, at all. There was no way at all that Aethas wouldn't know of Jaina's fragile state.

    You are capable of realizing that you can win the war and even dismantle a hostile alliance without committing a genocide, right? Or is my faith in you unreasonable?
    I believe one can do that. But Garrosh? One that has no problem at all in killing their own allies out in the open because of rumors? One that threatens with violence and death even the slight questioning of Garrosh's orders or motives? One that would capture fleeing civilians and crucify them? No. He can't do that. Garrosh wouldn't just stop at simply 'winning' the war. He'd break them, he'd wipe them all out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    If Jaina was for peace she would have made Theramore a neutral ground in which no alliance troops would be allowed to enter (or horde troops for that matter) during the alliance/horde war. Thereby not making herself a target for attack.
    And Theramore was neutral... It remained such until the Sunreavers screwed things up.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post

    And Theramore was neutral... It remained such until the Sunreavers screwed things up.
    Sunreavers screwed nothing up, one person =/= entirety of an organisation in which 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% did nothing wrong. And you can't be neutral while supporting one side.

    Or do you deny A) Theremore troops in Durotar with their intent on Orgrimmar.
    B) Theramore basing alliance forces.
    C) A Highway from Theramore to the Southern Barrens hosted solely by Alliance forces.
    D) Theramore troops fighting along side the Alliance forces.


    In war Neutral means taking no sides. Staying out of the war, hosting neither side, allowing no side through your lands. Theramore broke ALL of these tennants

  17. #177
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I never said he was evil. And as for 'not mentioning the traitor', it's irrelevant what Jaina said, there. What is fact is that: a) Aethas knew of the theft; b) Kirin Tor resources were used; and c) there was a Sunreaver traitor. By opting to no go to the council and blow the whistle on what was going on, and since he knew of Jaina's trauma, he was the pivotal character in causing the 'Purge'.
    “Not just on this. You’ve always been strong, my lady. In your power, and in your character,” said Aethas Sunreaver unexpectedly. “Even when tested and tried. And when you faced both an unimaginable horror and an inconceivable temptation—and were perhaps yourself tainted by the effects of the mana bomb—you still chose a path that was fair and just, rather than vengeful and dark. It is, you must admit, unlikely that anything else will ever tempt you so again. And I do not think there stands among us anyone who, were he or she in your place, could have done better. Indeed… we might not have done even half so well.”
    --Tides of War

    Aethas greatly misjudged Jaina. But her wrath was still much preferable to Garrosh's.

  18. #178
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    That she was almost immediately voted as head of the Kirin Tor fresh out of that devastating emotional ordeal I consider one of the most boneheaded acts of Dalaran, especially in light that Archmagi are supposed to have a reputation for intelligence and incisiveness of thought. You'd think Kalec would at least council her not tax herself so quickly after losing almost everything she knew and loved to Garrosh, but I suppose that's also neither nor there in terms of the story.
    As discussed early in the thread, Jaina clearly served as a plot device to push Dalaran into the Alliance, however for achieve that it forced a situation that required a lolprophecy to be justified. Moreover, as Aqua said, the prophecy was absolutely idiotic and it was, at most, a warning as to why Jaina should have never become the Kirin Tor leader, not a reason to put her in charge. Still, people don't seem to ever question prophecies and this happen often in fantasy, it just happens that in Tides of War looked far more retarded than anything I ever saw. Last but not least, Jaina herself accepted that role knowing more than any other how she truly felt within.

    Really, the whole situation felt like the most mentally handicapped circlejerk ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Because you blame Jaina for what happened to the Sunreavers because of what happened to her, yet the one man who had the means to make a conscious decision, whose conscious choice led to the banishment of the Sunreavers, you're basically absolving of all guilt and blame and just saying the slap on the wrist he got was more than "punishment" enough.
    So you're saying Jaina didn't have the means to make a conscious decision? The fact that she irrationally tied two situations that weren't absolutely related to each other because of a common factor (a Sunreaver double-agent) and had a triggering wave of emotions out of it does not mean she lacked the possibility to make a "conscious" decision. Her inability to do that, no matter the reason, is something of which Jaina alone is responsible, because no one but her own emotions "forced" her. It's her responsibility. You can try to twist this and move goalposts all you want, but you'll never be able to hand-wave this irrefutable fact. On the other hand, Aethas' ability to make rational decisions meant nothing since he was forced in the middle of a crossfire.

    It's you who don't want to accept the simple fact that Aethas losing his place within the Kirin Tor is the fitting punishment for him not upholding his loyalties to Dalaran in favor of preserving those to his people. Hell, it's not like the Kirin Tor suffered anything personally from Aethas' inaction (not even active betrayal) Jaina was just pissed that Aethas didn't fully respect the Kirin Tor policies and let Dalaran's ground to be exploited in the war efforts of someone else.

    The end. Wow. Indeed, the Kirin Tor suffered IMMENSELY from Aethas' malefic actions. How dare you just kick him out of the Council, he deserves eternal imprisonment in the deepest recesses of the Twisting Nether.

    Neither can Aethas blame anyone but himself for what happened to the Sunreavers in Dalaran.
    He has responsibilities? No doubt. He had other persons to blame apart himself? Definitely:

    1) Jaina's irrationality and berserking rage motivated by nothing but an emotional trigger not effectively related to the situation she handled but just because she "felt" so, event that brought her to overstep her bonds and act like a tyrannical and violent Queen of Dalaran;

    2) Garrosh for being the dick we all know, who exploited the situation to put double agents into his ranks and forced him to comply when he discovered that with the threat of harming his people in the way Garrosh is universally known to do.

    Saying Aethas had no one but himself to blame is like a person who choose to suffer a punch in the teeth instead of a kick in the groin, and then put all the blame on him as for why his teeth hurts.

    True. However, you don't need 'complete understanding of what is going in her mind' when you know she is traumatized by what happened to Theramore and nearly obliterated Orgrimmar off the map in a fit of grief-stricken rage.
    ...event occurred when Jaina was in a state of literal insanity due to the arcane radiations. The Council saw first-hand how crazy Jaina was in that state, going to Dalaran just to ask "why don't you go all genocidal with me on those dirty green motherfuckers?", so they had all the means to see how different Jaina looked once the radiations dissipated from her body, apparently returning the woman she always was, hurt and all but still the person they used to know.

    And lo and behold, he picks the worst choice.
    Between broken Jaina and sociopath Garrosh? Oh I say he made the best choice he had in hand. Garrosh as Warchief of the Horde had under his command (and reach) FAR more Blood Elves than Jaina had with the sole Sunreavers. Plus, Jaina constantly shown the willingness to be reasonable (even if she didn't live up to it) while Garrosh was commonly known for being so far by that word that he couldn't even spot it with binoculars.

    Wow... and you accuse me of 'reaching'. It makes me wonder if you truly played WoW at all during Mists of Pandaria. Basically every action from Garrosh had the end of the Alliance in mind.
    It makes me wonder if you ever read anything about Garrosh. He constantly hated the Alliance not because he had some racial hatred against its races and wanted to commit genocide on them, he hated the Alliance because he saw the blue faction as the main reason why the Orcs were forced to live in their rocky desert, seeing the "peace" Thrall craved for as nothing but the reason they would have constantly remained the "slaves" of the Alliance. Hell, he even draws a parallel between Grom liberating the orcs from demon's enthrallment and Garrosh freeing them from the more "subtle chains of peace".

    He even says that once his war was won, "peace" could have been achieved, BUT under his own conditions: bought with blood through submission and dismantling of the Alliance as a faction, which is the exact, identical thing Jaina wanted to do with the Horde at the end of SoO.

    Ironic isn't it? I guess Jaina's a "genocidal bitch" then. Wait, she even had the Divine Bell at some point! Holy crap!

    Exactly why it could bring the end of the world. That artifact, if used by Garrosh for his intended purpose, would bring Azeroth to an end by infesting everyone and everything with the Sha.
    Dat hyperbole. Now the Divine Bell is Pandora's box?

    If Garrosh would have fucked up with the Divine Bell then only his own Horde would have suffered for it, the faction that decided to use it, let alone it would have been eventually destroyed by the Horde itself once even a blockhead like Garrosh realized, after hundreds of soldiers wasted for nothing, that the Divine Bell couldn't be used as the Mogu did in the past. Regardless, again, this would be no matter of importance or interest for a neutral organization.

    It is beyond naive to say that just because Jaina was showing apparent stability on the outside, it meant that she was healed. Mental and emotional wounds take a long time to heal and even then, usually leave some nasty scars. She was trying to be reasonable again, she was trying to be 'peace and balance' Jaina again, but she was still recovering. No one in their right mind could say that she was 'ok' then. Especially if the situation that was about to explode has connected to the original event that caused her trauma, i.e., the Sunreavers were involved.
    Being hurt and in the way of emotional recovery is a thing, going berserk is another. The latter wasn't simply expected, nor people could realize as good as Jaina herself which kind of crazy reaction that common variable would have caused. Again, people expected something more from Jaina and their trust on her proved to be misplaced. In the end, they could only trust what they saw, is Jaina alone which knew the depths of her pain and lingering, darker emotions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  19. #179
    Theramore was not neutral helped the war effort of the alliance in southern barrens

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I never said he was evil. And as for 'not mentioning the traitor', it's irrelevant what Jaina said, there. What is fact is that: a) Aethas knew of the theft; b) Kirin Tor resources were used; and c) there was a Sunreaver traitor. By opting to no go to the council and blow the whistle on what was going on, and since he knew of Jaina's trauma, he was the pivotal character in causing the 'Purge'.
    But Blizzard said that in the missing part of 5.1 he stumbled upon Fanlyr. Not a Sunreaver. And it's a wonder how magically it's irrelevant what Jaina has said now, when you've been pushing the narrative that she wanted the traitor handed in in half your posts in this thread. And considering that Aethas walked away from Fanlyr, he didn't have the opportunity to know what he was up to.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    What military power? All Garrosh had was an army of orcs, which may or may not be greater than each other horde race, individually. But combined? Garrosh's army wouldn't last too long. He may have had 'superior technology', but that wouldn't win the war for him, by itself, especially a war fought against two fronts. Remember: he was fighting the Horde rebellion and the Alliance.
    And all the other Horde races because the Warchief is supreme leader of the Horde. And he wasn't fighting any rebellion in 5.1.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    As for 'political power'... what political power? What political power did Garrosh have when all the other member factions of the Horde were openly fighting against Garrosh?
    I suggest you get acquainted with the power structure of the Horde. And chronology, because what you said above does not reflect the state of things in 5.1.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Aethas found out about the theft of the Divine Bell but opted to not say or do anything. That's offense by inaction. As for your little joke about 'omniscience', it's cute, but you're grossly wrong here as Jaina's mental and emotional state was not a secret since what she almost did to Orgrimmar wasn't exactly subtle. Plus her trauma at Theramore was not kept a secret, at all. There was no way at all that Aethas wouldn't know of Jaina's fragile state.
    And offense by inaction is one thing, provocation by inaction is another. And her most recent development from prior to the Purge was her openly stating how she was struggling, but managing in the end.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I believe one can do that. But Garrosh? One that has no problem at all in killing their own allies out in the open because of rumors? One that threatens with violence and death even the slight questioning of Garrosh's orders or motives? One that would capture fleeing civilians and crucify them? No. He can't do that. Garrosh wouldn't just stop at simply 'winning' the war. He'd break them, he'd wipe them all out.
    When did he kill his allies out in the open because of rumors? And if he was so hellbent on committing genocide against the Alliance, why didn't he order the Forsaken to sail south and Blight the shit out of Stormwind while Alliance armies were in Pandaria?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And Theramore was neutral... It remained such until the Sunreavers screwed things up.
    Proof number 1 billion that you don't know what the fuck neutrality means.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

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